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What kind of offense do we run?

What kind of offense do we run. I know that a team cant strictly stick to a scheme 100% so I know there is gonna be some tweaks. I also dont really think it is a hybrid West Coast Offense. Just seems like the staples from the WCO are not there. For starters we run more than pass. I only ask because it seems like it would be easier for this team to fix the offensive woes if everybody knew, including the coaches, what kind of offense it is
Obvious play offense
Stanford offense...which is a conglomerate of about 5 different kinds of offenses, a 350 page playbook and founded on Bo Schemblacher run-run-run principles/philosophies.
Originally posted by teylo31:
What kind of offense do we run. I know that a team cant strictly stick to a scheme 100% so I know there is gonna be some tweaks. I also dont really think it is a hybrid West Coast Offense. Just seems like the staples from the WCO are not there. For starters we run more than pass. I only ask because it seems like it would be easier for this team to fix the offensive woes if everybody knew, including the coaches, what kind of offense it is

I think what we were doing in 2011 can be classifed as a WCO. The difference as I see it tho is the true WCO was passing to set up the run. Especially early in games, however one of the biggest misnomers of the true WCO is that it's a pure passing offense. In fact every bill walsh championship team had the same pass/rush ratio of 48% pass and 52% run. In fact the '89 squad also had a ratio of 49/51. The 1994 team was our only championships team with more pass than run and even in that case it was still 51/49.

What the true WCO was is highly efficient passing and in my view that is what we lack currently. Since kap took over the passing game seems to be a showcase of how hard he can throw. My biggest complaint is that we don't make it easy on him. He rarely gets more than one true WR option, so essentially his progression is #1 look or run. Plain and simple our pass game needs more nuance.
[ Edited by Niners816 on Feb 26, 2014 at 7:34 AM ]
Originally posted by Niners816:
Originally posted by teylo31:
What kind of offense do we run. I know that a team cant strictly stick to a scheme 100% so I know there is gonna be some tweaks. I also dont really think it is a hybrid West Coast Offense. Just seems like the staples from the WCO are not there. For starters we run more than pass. I only ask because it seems like it would be easier for this team to fix the offensive woes if everybody knew, including the coaches, what kind of offense it is

I think what we were doing in 2011 can be classifed as a WCO. The difference as I see it tho is the true WCO was passing to set up the run. Especially early in games, however one of the biggest misnomers of the true WCO is that it's a pure passing offense. In fact every bill walsh championship team had the same pass/rush ratio of 48% pass and 52% run. In fact the '89 squad also had a ratio of 49/51. The 1994 team was our only championships team with more pass than run and even in that case it was still 51/49.

What the true WCO was is highly efficient passing and in my few that is what we lack currently. Since kap took over the passing game seems to be a showcase of how hard he can throw. My biggest complaint is that we don't make it easy on him. He rarely gets more than one true WR option, so essentially his progression is #1 look or run. Plain and simple our pass game needs more nuance.

And because of the LACK OF NUANCE this could be a BIG problem with Baalke York and Harbs and what NOBODY is talking about,I like Harbs as a coach but,I don't like the OFFENSE at allHarbs seems to just want to barely win games,Lack of Killer instinct,Bill Walsh HAD killer instinct,Bill did not play,He went straight for the Jugular.
When speaking about our offense, it's still shocking to me that our last championship level offensive squad was IMO in 1998. Granted 2000-2002 where very good offenses but I never really saw them as championship level. If you coupled our current defense with that 1998 offense I'm sure some scoring records would fall.
[ Edited by Niners816 on Feb 26, 2014 at 7:46 AM ]
I feel it's most like how Joe Gibbs ran his Air Coryell offense with the Redskins in the late 80s/early 90s. A run first mentality with lots of of double TE sets (H back), trying to stretch the field vertically when passing. Only thing is, they don't have the vertical weapons that Gibbs had with AMonk and GClark. Those Redskins teams was power run to set up the play action pass downfield, which is what I think Jim wants to eventually get to. Those Redskins also had some 'fancy' run plays like the counter trey. These 49ers have some intricate run plays as well, contrary to what some may think as Gore rams himself into brick walls. I do think there are plays from the WCO sprinkled in, but the principles of WCO are not there (ball control passing).
Originally posted by Niners816:
Originally posted by teylo31:
What kind of offense do we run. I know that a team cant strictly stick to a scheme 100% so I know there is gonna be some tweaks. I also dont really think it is a hybrid West Coast Offense. Just seems like the staples from the WCO are not there. For starters we run more than pass. I only ask because it seems like it would be easier for this team to fix the offensive woes if everybody knew, including the coaches, what kind of offense it is

I think what we were doing in 2011 can be classifed as a WCO. The difference as I see it tho is the true WCO was passing to set up the run. Especially early in games, however one of the biggest misnomers of the true WCO is that it's a pure passing offense. In fact every bill walsh championship team had the same pass/rush ratio of 48% pass and 52% run. In fact the '89 squad also had a ratio of 49/51. The 1994 team was our only championships team with more pass than run and even in that case it was still 51/49.

What the true WCO was is highly efficient passing and in my view that is what we lack currently. Since kap took over the passing game seems to be a showcase of how hard he can throw. My biggest complaint is that we don't make it easy on him. He rarely gets more than one true WR option, so essentially his progression is #1 look or run. Plain and simple our pass game needs more nuance.

Spot on. And another thing people forget is that we built up early leads in the 1st half via the short, methodical passing game and timely deeper targets (high-to-low progressions) and ran much much more in the 2nd half of games to preserve leads. I've gone so far as referring to this offense as the Anti-WCO. We may run WCO formations at times but run different Stanford sets out of these formations (running and passing). There are so many anti-WCO things we do...constant shot gun, few under center, no QB timing with drops and WR routes, Q-formation, jumbo packages, AR1 and 2 routes, no high-to-low progressions, no crossing patterns, post patterns, etc.
Originally posted by thl408:
I feel it's most like how Joe Gibbs ran his Air Coryell offense with the Redskins in the late 80s/early 90s. A run first mentality with lots of of double TE sets (H back), trying to stretch the field vertically when passing. Only thing is, they don't have the vertical weapons that Gibbs had with AMonk and GClark. Those Redskins teams was power run to set up the play action pass downfield, which is what I think Jim wants to eventually get to. Those Redskins also had some 'fancy' run plays like the counter trey. These 49ers have some intricate run plays as well, contrary to what some may think as Gore rams himself into brick walls. I do think there are plays from the WCO sprinkled in, but the principles of WCO are not there (ball control passing).

Now THIS is spot on as well. This is how I see it as well. Our WR routes are very very basic to say the least...tons of decoy routes, go-routes, sideline comebacks, etc. You won't be seeing double moves with us, post patterns, screens, quick slants (many), TE's in the soft zones, etc.
Good post.

Sometimes I feel we run the "WTF" offense when we are in the Red Zone.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Niners816:
Originally posted by teylo31:
What kind of offense do we run. I know that a team cant strictly stick to a scheme 100% so I know there is gonna be some tweaks. I also dont really think it is a hybrid West Coast Offense. Just seems like the staples from the WCO are not there. For starters we run more than pass. I only ask because it seems like it would be easier for this team to fix the offensive woes if everybody knew, including the coaches, what kind of offense it is

I think what we were doing in 2011 can be classifed as a WCO. The difference as I see it tho is the true WCO was passing to set up the run. Especially early in games, however one of the biggest misnomers of the true WCO is that it's a pure passing offense. In fact every bill walsh championship team had the same pass/rush ratio of 48% pass and 52% run. In fact the '89 squad also had a ratio of 49/51. The 1994 team was our only championships team with more pass than run and even in that case it was still 51/49.

What the true WCO was is highly efficient passing and in my view that is what we lack currently. Since kap took over the passing game seems to be a showcase of how hard he can throw. My biggest complaint is that we don't make it easy on him. He rarely gets more than one true WR option, so essentially his progression is #1 look or run. Plain and simple our pass game needs more nuance.

Spot on. And another thing people forget is that we built up early leads in the 1st half via the short, methodical passing game and timely deeper targets (high-to-low progressions) and ran much much more in the 2nd half of games to preserve leads. I've gone so far as referring to this offense as the Anti-WCO. We may run WCO formations at times but run different Stanford sets out of these formations (running and passing). There are so many anti-WCO things we do...constant shot gun, few under center, no QB timing with drops and WR routes, Q-formation, jumbo packages, AR1 and 2 routes, no high-to-low progressions, no crossing patterns, post patterns, etc.

The thing that stands out to me about our dynasty year WCO was the whether it was joe or steve they always seemed to start games hot. Usually during the initial script they were always 9 for 11, 7 of 9 or some other rediculously high percentage. With kap the majority if his starts are slow. It like we are allergic to giving him easy stuff. The most mind boggling thing is all the traditional WCO concepts still work. For example, You can wrap flanker drive/any drive concept in any number of formation. Hell that is essentially what Crabtree made his living on at Texas tech in their air raid offense. IMO there is no reason why crabs can't be a 100 catch WR even with boldin in a proper functioning WCO.
Originally posted by Niners816:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Niners816:
Originally posted by teylo31:
What kind of offense do we run. I know that a team cant strictly stick to a scheme 100% so I know there is gonna be some tweaks. I also dont really think it is a hybrid West Coast Offense. Just seems like the staples from the WCO are not there. For starters we run more than pass. I only ask because it seems like it would be easier for this team to fix the offensive woes if everybody knew, including the coaches, what kind of offense it is

I think what we were doing in 2011 can be classifed as a WCO. The difference as I see it tho is the true WCO was passing to set up the run. Especially early in games, however one of the biggest misnomers of the true WCO is that it's a pure passing offense. In fact every bill walsh championship team had the same pass/rush ratio of 48% pass and 52% run. In fact the '89 squad also had a ratio of 49/51. The 1994 team was our only championships team with more pass than run and even in that case it was still 51/49.

What the true WCO was is highly efficient passing and in my view that is what we lack currently. Since kap took over the passing game seems to be a showcase of how hard he can throw. My biggest complaint is that we don't make it easy on him. He rarely gets more than one true WR option, so essentially his progression is #1 look or run. Plain and simple our pass game needs more nuance.

Spot on. And another thing people forget is that we built up early leads in the 1st half via the short, methodical passing game and timely deeper targets (high-to-low progressions) and ran much much more in the 2nd half of games to preserve leads. I've gone so far as referring to this offense as the Anti-WCO. We may run WCO formations at times but run different Stanford sets out of these formations (running and passing). There are so many anti-WCO things we do...constant shot gun, few under center, no QB timing with drops and WR routes, Q-formation, jumbo packages, AR1 and 2 routes, no high-to-low progressions, no crossing patterns, post patterns, etc.

The thing that stands out to me about our dynasty year WCO was the whether it was joe or steve they always seemed to start games hot. Usually during the initial script they were always 9 for 11, 7 of 9 or some other rediculously high percentage. With kap the majority if his starts are slow. It like we are allergic to giving him easy stuff. The most mind boggling thing is all the traditional WCO concepts still work. For example, You can wrap flanker drive/any drive concept in any number of formation. Hell that is essentially what Crabtree made his living on at Texas tech in their air raid offense. IMO there is no reason why crabs can't be a 100 catch WR even with boldin in a proper functioning WCO.

So true. The thing that is paramount in the WCO is 1) Multiple options for the QB, usually from high-to-low progressions (Post route, then to the TE in the soft zone and then to the RB as an outlet). There were ALWAYS plenty of receiving options for the QB and 2) Targeting weaknesses. What, Goldson just knocked Brown out in the NFCCG. Great, let's immediately go after Brock for the TD. That's smart in-game play calling right there yet have WE ever done that to a team? And game plans were designed to get both the QB and (all) receivers involved early and often and into a rhythm. Most importantly, the game plan was specifically designed to attack a defenses weaknesses. You suck against the run? Fine, we'll run Ricky Waters for 5 TD's in a playoff game. You have slow S's, fine, we'll exploit you on post patterns with Rice in the Superbowl (Chargers). You have a ferocious pass rush? Fine, our T's will let you fly right by inside while we sneak Steve Young on the edge on a QB keeper (Haley). You could see clear attacks on defensive weaknesses. Us? We run a nice route to McDonald in the NFCCG and then never go back to him even though the soft zones and delayed flare outs by the backs are THE way to exploit Seattle's defense. They were open all game long d/t the added attention to the intermediate sidelines and CK running off the edges and their LB's spying him.
Originally posted by NCommand:
So true. The thing that is paramount in the WCO is 1) Multiple options for the QB, usually from high-to-low progressions (Post route, then to the TE in the soft zone and then to the RB as an outlet). There were ALWAYS plenty of receiving options for the QB and 2) Targeting weaknesses. What, Goldson just knocked Brown out in the NFCCG. Great, let's immediately go after Brock for the TD. That's smart in-game play calling right there yet have WE ever done that to a team? And game plans were designed to get both the QB and (all) receivers involved early and often and into a rhythm. Most importantly, the game plan was specifically designed to attack a defenses weaknesses. You suck against the run? Fine, we'll run Ricky Waters for 5 TD's in a playoff game. You have slow S's, fine, we'll exploit you on post patterns with Rice in the Superbowl (Chargers). You have a ferocious pass rush? Fine, our T's will let you fly right by inside while we sneak Steve Young on the edge on a QB keeper (Haley). You could see clear attacks on defensive weaknesses. Us? We run a nice route to McDonald in the NFCCG and then never go back to him even though the soft zones and delayed flare outs by the backs are THE way to exploit Seattle's defense. They were open all game long d/t the added attention to the intermediate sidelines and CK running off the edges and their LB's spying him.

Speaking of 1994, probably my favorite offensive performance poutside the Super Bowl was the Deion homecoming game at Atlanta. I remember it being an Absolute clinic in regards to both qb play and the WCO in general. Steve was 15/16 for 145 and 4 tds and had a 28-3 halftime lead. Here was the differnce between then and now, instead of padding his stAts and staying in, he didn't even play he second half. That is why as good as the niners qb numbers were I think it would be safe to say the left several tds and yards just by shutting it down with huge leads in the second half. The nfl today is sort of like a 12 year old playing madden, it is all about stats and fantasy numbers.

Now as for the title game vs Seattle, obviously Seattle made an adjustment to contain kaps legs in the second half. I still haven't rewatched it cause the pain is still pretty fresh, but I have little doubt a Walsh, holmgren or shanahan would have diagnosed the adjustment and exploited the new weakness. Speaking of WCO concepts, I think kap would excel on Texas concepts play. Hell we used to run that concept 5+ times a game. That's how watters caught 65 passes or more so how even Derrick loville had 85+ reception in 95. We make it way to easy on defense by not making them cover backs out of the back field.
[ Edited by Niners816 on Feb 26, 2014 at 9:29 AM ]
we run a between the 20's O
Originally posted by Niners816:
Originally posted by NCommand:
So true. The thing that is paramount in the WCO is 1) Multiple options for the QB, usually from high-to-low progressions (Post route, then to the TE in the soft zone and then to the RB as an outlet). There were ALWAYS plenty of receiving options for the QB and 2) Targeting weaknesses. What, Goldson just knocked Brown out in the NFCCG. Great, let's immediately go after Brock for the TD. That's smart in-game play calling right there yet have WE ever done that to a team? And game plans were designed to get both the QB and (all) receivers involved early and often and into a rhythm. Most importantly, the game plan was specifically designed to attack a defenses weaknesses. You suck against the run? Fine, we'll run Ricky Waters for 5 TD's in a playoff game. You have slow S's, fine, we'll exploit you on post patterns with Rice in the Superbowl (Chargers). You have a ferocious pass rush? Fine, our T's will let you fly right by inside while we sneak Steve Young on the edge on a QB keeper (Haley). You could see clear attacks on defensive weaknesses. Us? We run a nice route to McDonald in the NFCCG and then never go back to him even though the soft zones and delayed flare outs by the backs are THE way to exploit Seattle's defense. They were open all game long d/t the added attention to the intermediate sidelines and CK running off the edges and their LB's spying him.

Speaking of 1994, probably my favorite offensive performance poutside the Super Bowl was the Deion homecoming game at Atlanta. I remember it being an Absolute clinic in regards to both qb play and the WCO in general. Steve was 15/16 for 145 and 4 tds and had a 28-3 halftime lead. Here was the differnce between then and now, instead of padding his stAts and staying in, he didn't even play he second half. That is why as good as the niners qb numbers were I think it would be safe to say the left several tds and yards just by shutting it down with huge leads in the second half. The nfl today is sort of like a 12 year old playing madden, it is all about stats and fantasy numbers.

Now as for the title game vs Seattle, obviously Seattle made an adjustment to contain kaps legs in the second half. I still haven't rewatched it cause the pain is still pretty fresh, but I have little doubt a Walsh, holmgren or shanahan would have diagnosed the adjustment and exploited the new weakness. Speaking of WCO concepts, I think kap would excel on Texas concepts play. Hell we used to run that concept 5+ times a game. That's how watters caught 65 passes or more so how even Derrick loville had 85+ reception in 95. We make it way to easy on defense by not making them cover backs out of the back field.

You are bringing back WAY too many good memories. LOL