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If it comes down to it, who would you rather have?

If it comes down to it, who would you rather have?

Originally posted by Pillbusta:
Originally posted by Rubberneck36:
Tough thing, and I hope it doesn't come to it, but it go with Harbaugh. Both are great at their jobs, but I think we have seen what it looks like when you have great players and a bad coach. When Harbaugh came on, he essentially took the same crew and went to the playoffs. Kind of like Reid in KC. I go coach, but I don't want my coach also doing the roster. It rarely works.
That was my point earlier. Folk here have seen what it looks like when we have imbeciles in charge of coaching a very talented team but what happens when we have Matt Millen in the front office? Huh? Huh? But we haven't seen this here yet so we are blind to the fact in 49erland! You let Baalke and Paraag walk and I gave it three to four seasons where our talent erodes to the point we don't compete out west. We now have the best front office and we had some of the worst head coaches in here from 2003 - 2010 so we saw that extreme. Ask DET what Matt Millen looked like. I don't care who the coach was there. You can't win consistently vs Ted Thompson with Matt Millen

Sooooo true! Does everyone forget the website, NinerCapHell? It was created for a reason...

http://ninercaphell.com/
[ Edited by NCommand on Mar 2, 2014 at 7:36 AM ]
Originally posted by NCommand:
I'd lean this way as well if this was the same group of players 3-4 years ago...you could see many were just coming into their own, still trying to find themselves, we were using the wrong personnel (i.e. Lawson over Brooks), etc.

But now? Clearly this is a perfect mix of veteran leaders and talent with young up-and-comers and with the ton of depth we have now and being in terrific shape to attrack more veteran FA's and the cap shape we are in for years to come, it's not even close to the same team. We could end up with a Bruce Arian's-like situation with Harbaugh and I wouldn't even bat an eye, IMHO.
You look at Matt Millen and you realize that if your front office is a train wreck your team will be as well.
Originally posted by Pillbusta:
Originally posted by NCommand:
I'd lean this way as well if this was the same group of players 3-4 years ago...you could see many were just coming into their own, still trying to find themselves, we were using the wrong personnel (i.e. Lawson over Brooks), etc.

But now? Clearly this is a perfect mix of veteran leaders and talent with young up-and-comers and with the ton of depth we have now and being in terrific shape to attrack more veteran FA's and the cap shape we are in for years to come, it's not even close to the same team. We could end up with a Bruce Arian's-like situation with Harbaugh and I wouldn't even bat an eye, IMHO.
You look at Matt Millen and you realize that if your front office is a train wreck your team will be as well.

A poor FO can set your team back 5-10 years in no time at all. Oh wait, we all know this personally first hand. I love Harbaugh but I also can't dismiss the fact that he walked into the PERFECT coaching position at the perfect time. It's like a young upside rookie QB going to a team that already has a dominant defense, outstanding OL and running game and a quality and clutch receiving group...like Roethlisberger.
Originally posted by NCommand:
A poor FO can set your team back 5-10 years in no time at all. Oh wait, we all know this personally first hand. I love Harbaugh but I also can't dismiss the fact that he walked into the PERFECT coaching position at the perfect time. It's like a young upside rookie QB going to a team that already has a dominant defense, outstanding OL and running game and a quality and clutch receiving group...like Roethlisberger.

True. At his press opener Harbaugh called this "the perfect competitive opportunity". I knew then exactly what he was referring to because we were built both in personnel and in mindset from Singletary to play Harbaull from day one especially when you consider our run blocking OL Frank Gore two physical sub 4.4 TEs and our defensive personnel. He saw the fit
[ Edited by Pillbusta on Mar 2, 2014 at 7:53 AM ]
Harbs EASY
BOTH.

It will happen.
Originally posted by LasVegasWally:
BOTH.

It will happen.

Amen!
  • Kolohe
  • Hall of Fame
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If the 9ers were to part ways with Baalke, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't let a Terry Donahue or Scott McCloughan walk through the door. But letting go of Harbaugh, I'm not so sure Baalke could bring in another one like him. There's not one HC out there I can think of that has the passion and energy that Harbaugh brings, excepth maybe Jon Gruden, but I don't believe the hype.

http://www.bucsnation.com/2013/8/19/4637226/jon-gruden-reminds-us-all-why-hes-no-longer-coaching-the-buccaneers
  • Jcool
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Originally posted by Kolohe:
If the 9ers were to part ways with Baalke, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't let a Terry Donahue or Scott McCloughan walk through the door. But letting go of Harbaugh, I'm not so sure Baalke could bring in another one like him. There's not one HC out there I can think of that has the passion and energy that Harbaugh brings, excepth maybe Jon Gruden, but I don't believe the hype.

http://www.bucsnation.com/2013/8/19/4637226/jon-gruden-reminds-us-all-why-hes-no-longer-coaching-the-buccaneers

If we ever do need to look for a new coach i would stay far far far away from Gruden. You never want an offensive coach with a questionable credentials. Yeah he won a Superbowl but that was an all defensive win and that Superbowl was played against a team where he knew every play being called. He has never been able to develop a QB and after that Superbowl he had a record of 45-51. In Tampa he never finished higher then 18th in points.
I want both.

If I had to choose, I'd rather have Harbaugh
Originally posted by NCommand:
A poor FO can set your team back 5-10 years in no time at all. Oh wait, we all know this personally first hand. I love Harbaugh but I also can't dismiss the fact that he walked into the PERFECT coaching position at the perfect time. It's like a young upside rookie QB going to a team that already has a dominant defense, outstanding OL and running game and a quality and clutch receiving group...like Roethlisberger.


Ncommand--- you and I are on the same page

All the people rooting for Harbaugh point to our record and say he is irreplaceable. I've already listed 10 coaches who could lead this team but that's besides the point. People still fail to tell me exactly why Harbaugh is so good. As a game manager, he's terrible. He makes rookie mistakes with timeouts and challenges. His offense consistently leaves points on the field. We've been the best team in the league for 3 years but we have no rings.

So why all the love for Harbaugh? In a perfect world we keep everyone and add an experienced OC. Baalke has proved he is an elite GM. Harbaugh has proved he is a very good coach who also has major flaws. I think Baalke could easily find a replacement that would get us over the hump

If Jim correctly perceives Kyle Williams had fumble-itis we're in the Super Bowl. If we run from first and goal at the 5 with Ngata injured we have a championship. If we call timeout on the 20 yard line instead of rushing a fade we score and pummel the broncos. This is poor game management!!!
[ Edited by Big_Daddy on Mar 2, 2014 at 4:30 PM ]
Originally posted by Big_Daddy:
Originally posted by NCommand:
A poor FO can set your team back 5-10 years in no time at all. Oh wait, we all know this personally first hand. I love Harbaugh but I also can't dismiss the fact that he walked into the PERFECT coaching position at the perfect time. It's like a young upside rookie QB going to a team that already has a dominant defense, outstanding OL and running game and a quality and clutch receiving group...like Roethlisberger.


Ncommand--- you and I are on the same page

All the people rooting for Harbaugh point to our record and say he is irreplaceable. I've already listed 10 coaches who could lead this team but that's besides the point. People still fail to tell me exactly why Harbaugh is so good. As a game manager, he's terrible. He makes rookie mistakes with timeouts and challenges. His offense consistently leaves points on the field. We've been the best team in the league for 3 years but we have no rings.

So why all the love for Harbaugh? In a perfect world we keep everyone and add an experienced OC. Baalke has proved he is an elite GM. Harbaugh has proved he is a very good coach who also has major flaws. I think Baalke could easily find a replacement that would get us over the hump

If Jim correctly perceives Kyle Williams had fumble-itis we're in the Super Bowl. If we run from first and goal at the 5 with Ngata injured we have a championship. If we call timeout on the 20 yard line instead of rushing a fade we score and pummel the broncos. This is poor game management!!!

Agreed. I'm not taking sides in this. I want Harbaugh and Baalke to stay. I also think any coach, no matter how good, needs a talent base. I don't think there is a single coach in this league that can turn s**t into gold. He needs players.

At the same time, a great GM won't ever see the fruits of his labor without a quality coach to develop the talent. Singletary had this team mired in mediocrity, so the natural response is "Talent means nothing without coaching." That is true to an extent, but gets over-exaggerated in Niner land because Singletary was a complete buffoon.

Pete Carroll has everyone on his nuts right now. All of a sudden he's this genius defensive mastermind and elite coach after a decades worth of mediocrity on his resume. He's run the same scheme for decades. What changed? Talent. His scheme does not dominate opponents without exceptional players like Sherman, Thomas, Chancellor. You replace those guys with your average NFL player, and he has an average NFL defense.

Coaches get too much credit in this league. I don't mean to downplay their importance, because they have a bigger impact on games than most any sport, but this is still a players league. VERY few HCs in league history deserve the "genius" label. That word is tossed around too liberally. When I think genius, I think of Walsh and Lombardi. Harbaugh and Carroll are not in that "irreplaceable" class IMO.
[ Edited by SofaKing on Mar 2, 2014 at 4:57 PM ]
  • Jcool
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Originally posted by SofaKing:
Agreed. I'm not taking sides in this. I want Harbaugh and Baalke to stay. I also think any coach, no matter how good, needs a talent base. I don't think there is a single coach in this league that can turn s**t into gold. He needs players.

At the same time, a great GM won't ever see the fruits of his labor without a quality coach to develop the talent. Singletary had this team mired in mediocrity, so the natural response is "Talent means nothing without coaching." That is true to an extent, but gets over-exaggerated in Niner land because Singletary was a complete buffoon.

Pete Carroll has everyone on his nuts right now. All of a sudden he's this genius defensive mastermind and elite coach after a decades worth of mediocrity on his resume. He's run the same scheme for decades. What changed? Talent. His scheme does not dominate opponents without exceptional players like Sherman, Thomas, Chancellor. You replace those guys with your average NFL player, and he has an average NFL defense.

Coaches get too much credit in this league. I don't mean to downplay their importance, because they have a bigger impact on games than most any sport, but this is still a players league. VERY few HCs in league history deserve the "genius" label. That word is tossed around too liberally. When I think genius, I think of Walsh and Lombardi. Harbaugh and Carroll are not in that "irreplaceable" class IMO.

No... In no way is that even remotely true.
Originally posted by Jcool:
No... In no way is that even remotely true.

Really? Every time a coach wins in this league he is hailed as a genius. How many geniuses can there possibly be? Truth is most of these guys don't win the big games without exceptional talent. John Fox has no business coaching a record setting offense. That was all Manning. Pete Carroll has run his defensive scheme for decades. Never was dominant without the group of players he has now.

They all have decades worth of experience, gameplanning, drawing up X's and O's. There is not a lot they haven't seen or can be fooled by. The difference between most of these guys is getting the right players who can execute the gameplan. Guys who play fast, physical, and smart.
  • Jcool
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Originally posted by SofaKing:
Originally posted by Jcool:
No... In no way is that even remotely true.

Really? Every time a coach wins in this league he is hailed as a genius. How many geniuses can there possibly be? Truth is most of these guys don't win the big games without exceptional talent. John Fox has no business coaching a record setting offense. That was all Manning. Pete Carroll has run his defensive scheme for decades. Never was dominant without the group of players he has now.

They all have decades worth of experience, gameplanning, drawing up X's and O's. There is not a lot they haven't seen or can be fooled by. The difference between most of these guys is getting the right players who can execute the gameplan. Guys who play fast, physical, and smart.

No one was saying Tom Coughlin was a genius after winning two Superbowl's in NY. No one called Mike Tomlin a genius. I have yet to hear John Harbaugh and genius used in the same sentence. Some think Tony Dungy is a great coach but never called a genius. John Fox isn't coaching recording breaking offense, seems the offensive coordinators are getting the credit since Mike McCoy is now a head coach and Adam Gase had some offers this off season.

To be far to Caroll he did have 5 top 10 defenses (points) in the NFL, including a #1 defense with the 49ers in 1995, before his run the last 3 years.