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If it comes down to it, who would you rather have?

If it comes down to it, who would you rather have?

  • pd24
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 2,116
Originally posted by obx49:
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Originally posted by Lunchwagon:
Raiders had a conference championship team, traded their coach for 2 1sts and and 2 2nds and immediately went to s**te for more than a decade. Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

Yup. Talent in the NFL is all over the place. You need a coach to bring it all together.

You know, it's kind of interesting...what we're really talking about here is talent inspite of coaching and coaching up talent. In this scenario, we'll assume Fangio and his staff stay. I'd hope the ST staff leaves (they suck). Baalke stays and continues to infuse top notch talent via FA (including our own) and the draft. On offense:
CK - has no ceiling; is now playing in a completly different system than in college and still playing very well; how much has coaching helped here? Or is it talent? Most questions people have with him are mechanics, preparation, vision, pocket ability, etc.
Gore - safe to say that no matter what OC we had, he was successful?
Boldin - same thing? Any system, he's great.
VD - same thing? Blocker and then became the primary pass catching target? He does both well.
Goodwin - PB/Superbowl center before coming here
Iupati/Davis - both first round talents (same consistent issues though)
McDonald - slot pass catcher in college, but is a blocker here
Boone - you can put this one on coaching and development, no doubt.
Hunter/James? Never used
Kyle Williams/Baldwin/Jenkins? Ummm

So again, re: the offensive side of the ball, how much did coaching really, "bring it all together" for a 30th ranked offense?

I have no doubt re: coaching...JUST coaching, Harbaugh is one of the best team managers there is but we can't ignore these offensive player development issues OR the fact that he cost us the Superbowl and NFCCG with very poor game management (called TO) and situational awareness (signing off on plays) as well.

CK - JH is the QB whisperer. There is little debate on this point. CK may be fine without JH, but there is no questions CK will be much better off with JH. And if CK goes down, we will need JH to mold the next man up. This is the position JH cleaned up. It happens to be the most important position on the team. If anything, we need him for this.

Gore - Yes, Gore has had success but he is 30+ now and doesn't have the burst he once had. He is on the downside of his career and slows down at the end of every year. As much as i love gore, he isn't exactly the best RB in the league or anything.

Boldin - This is the first time he has had a 1,000 yard season since the AZ days.

Crabtree- Never had a 1,000 yard season until JH showed up

VD - Had 13 TD this year. The most since 2009.

As for the linemen, we were 3rdin the league in rushing this year. In 2012, we were 4th in the league. In 2011, we were 8th in the league.

In 2010, before Harbaugh, we were 19th in the league in rushing. In 2009, we were 25th in the league in rushing. It doesn't get much better from there...
So we may have a 30th ranked passing offense, but the running attack has improved dramatically, and its no because of just Gore. Hunter and Kap have contributed to that, including Harbaugh's pistol read option.

Besides all that, before Harbaugh, we would fumble away games and make many many many dumb mistakes. He eliminated all those mistakes as well. He took a bunch of talented guys and molded them and turned them into a powerhouse perennial superbowl contender each and every year he has been here.

His situation awareness and clock management and challenges will get better. He is a new coach to this league and is still learning and figuring things out himself. We need to give him more then three years to get it 99% right. If he is this good as a newb, imaging when he has a few more years under his belt.

Letting him go will be the biggest mistake in 49ers history.

Great f**king post! This should be pinned for every hater to see. If Harbs is sent away packing there should be a Rodney King like riot in San Fran.

Idiotic statement.
Originally posted by qnnhan7:
49ers draft cam will have the highest ratings of all time this May York should sell commercial time slot

lol

Yeah man. Its like an episode of the real world.
Originally posted by pd24:
Idiotic statement.

He's using hyperbole and its just a joke
  • pd24
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 2,116
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Originally posted by pd24:
Idiotic statement.

He's using hyperbole and its just a joke
Even then, why riot without seeing the result on the field?
Originally posted by buck:
Simple.

Get rid of the idiot that is causing the problems.

And I do not know who that is.


Originally posted by qnnhan7:
Start with Haslem then work your way down those ex-Browns food chain. Those are guaranteed idiots. Then the reporters starting with Florio.

Mobsterstyle.
Is Lombardi's son still employed by the 49ers? If so, I'd imagine he could be the originating source for the "rift" story in the 49ers FO. Then his dad gets canned by the Browns and leaks the info.
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Originally posted by Lunchwagon:
Raiders had a conference championship team, traded their coach for 2 1sts and and 2 2nds and immediately went to s**te for more than a decade. Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

Yup. Talent in the NFL is all over the place. You need a coach to bring it all together.

You know, it's kind of interesting...what we're really talking about here is talent inspite of coaching and coaching up talent. In this scenario, we'll assume Fangio and his staff stay. I'd hope the ST staff leaves (they suck). Baalke stays and continues to infuse top notch talent via FA (including our own) and the draft. On offense:
CK - has no ceiling; is now playing in a completly different system than in college and still playing very well; how much has coaching helped here? Or is it talent? Most questions people have with him are mechanics, preparation, vision, pocket ability, etc.
Gore - safe to say that no matter what OC we had, he was successful?
Boldin - same thing? Any system, he's great.
VD - same thing? Blocker and then became the primary pass catching target? He does both well.
Goodwin - PB/Superbowl center before coming here
Iupati/Davis - both first round talents (same consistent issues though)
McDonald - slot pass catcher in college, but is a blocker here
Boone - you can put this one on coaching and development, no doubt.
Hunter/James? Never used
Kyle Williams/Baldwin/Jenkins? Ummm

So again, re: the offensive side of the ball, how much did coaching really, "bring it all together" for a 30th ranked offense?

I have no doubt re: coaching...JUST coaching, Harbaugh is one of the best team managers there is but we can't ignore these offensive player development issues OR the fact that he cost us the Superbowl and NFCCG with very poor game management (called TO) and situational awareness (signing off on plays) as well.

CK - JH is the QB whisperer. There is little debate on this point. CK may be fine without JH, but there is no questions CK will be much better off with JH. And if CK goes down, we will need JH to mold the next man up. This is the position JH cleaned up. It happens to be the most important position on the team. If anything, we need him for this.

Gore - Yes, Gore has had success but he is 30+ now and doesn't have the burst he once had. He is on the downside of his career and slows down at the end of every year. As much as i love gore, he isn't exactly the best RB in the league or anything.

Boldin - This is the first time he has had a 1,000 yard season since the AZ days.

Crabtree- Never had a 1,000 yard season until JH showed up

VD - Had 13 TD this year. The most since 2009.

As for the linemen, we were 3rd in the league in rushing this year. In 2012, we were 4th in the league. In 2011, we were 8th in the league.

In 2010, before Harbaugh, we were 19th in the league in rushing. In 2009, we were 25th in the league in rushing. It doesn't get much better from there...
So we may have a 30th ranked passing offense, but the running attack has improved dramatically, and its no because of just Gore. Hunter and Kap have contributed to that, including Harbaugh's pistol read option.

Besides all that, before Harbaugh, we would fumble away games and make many many many dumb mistakes. He eliminated all those mistakes as well. He took a bunch of talented guys and molded them and turned them into a powerhouse perennial Superbowl contender each and every year he has been here.

His situation awareness and clock management and challenges will get better. He is a new coach to this league and is still learning and figuring things out himself. We need to give him more then three years to get it 99% right. If he is this good as a newb, imaging when he has a few more years under his belt. He got us to the dance and it wasn't just those few mistakes that cost us the game. It had more to do with the players' and refs having brain farts then a few things Harbaugh did. He's the one who got them there in the first place. I would blame the players and Roman more then Harbaugh in that game. Harbaugh can't make the refs call holding, he can't make Culliver stay on his feet and make a tackle, he can't make the special teams tackle etc...

Letting him go will be the biggest mistake in 49ers history.

I think it's very fair to think this way. I certainly am not one to dismiss all the great he HAS done for us...and I don't want to lose him. The only good thing this debate does is make us cover every aspect of our team. On the flip side, I just can't ignore the fact that he inherited some all-pro's and PB players and more were given to him (Goodwin, Boldin, etc.). I saw Gore already the best, VD post-Singletary there, Crabtree became CK's primary target (and still is, obviously), etc. And now Baalke is working Boldin into the future, drafted Looney and Kilgore, Marquardt, had guys like Gray & Chris Harper, FB Owen, was willing to pull the trigger on Jenkins, brought back Snyder, etc. There is no doubt IMHO, we have had PLENTY of talent to win it all the past 2 or 3 years. The offense is on Harbaugh. Period. And it's not gotten better...it's been the same now with all the same trends/patterns under two polar opposite QB's. The philosophy hasn't wavered...under both QB's, it was always HEAVY run and under Alex, the passing game was more short game but spread around-focused and under CK, it's all sideline intermediate passes to 3 guys only. And player development? Good players getting better? Is the OL developing like the DL has been? How about ST's which has cost us equally, if not MORE than the weak offense? When was the last time you felt our OC outcoached a DC when we faced an equally talented team? When we clearly outschemed them?

I just don't think he's the QB whisperer everyone believes and his offensive philosophy is archaic. I love the guy as a coach though...nobody creates a better locker room and culture then him. Ideally, like another said, we retain him and turns over the offense to an OC like how the defense is turned over to Fangio. Perhaps, then, he can focus on the in-game management stuff and ST's!?
Originally posted by pd24:
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Originally posted by pd24:
Idiotic statement.

He's using hyperbole and its just a joke
Even then, why riot without seeing the result on the field?

Ever been in a riot? Not exactly patient/sophisticated people.
Originally posted by NCommand:
You know, it's kind of interesting...what we're really talking about here is talent inspite of coaching and coaching up talent. In this scenario, we'll assume Fangio and his staff stay. I'd hope the ST staff leaves (they suck). Baalke stays and continues to infuse top notch talent via FA (including our own) and the draft.
On offense:
CK - has no ceiling; is now playing in a completly different system than in college and still playing very well; how much has coaching helped here? Or is it talent? Most questions people have with him are mechanics, preparation, vision, pocket ability, etc.
Gore - safe to say that no matter what OC we had, he was successful?
Boldin - same thing? Any system, he's great.
VD - same thing? First a blocker and then became the primary pass catching target? He does both well.
Goodwin - PB/Superbowl center before coming here.
Iupati/Davis - both first round talents (same consistent issues though)
McDonald - slot pass catcher in college, but is a blocker here.
Hunter/James? Never used
Kyle Williams/Baldwin/Jenkins? Ummm
Boone - you can put this one on coaching and development, no doubt. Harbaugh was his biggest backer!

So again, re: the offensive side of the ball, how much did coaching really help, "bring it all together;" this 30th ranked offense?

I have no doubt re: coaching...JUST coaching, Harbaugh is one of the best team managers there is but we can't ignore these offensive player development issues (talent vs. coaching) OR the fact that he cost us the Superbowl and NFCCG with very poor game management (called TO on the TD) and poor situational awareness (signing off on plays like Crabtre x3 and Crabtree again) as well.

Our "ranks" dont really mean alot. I think its very clear that our players are getting coached up, and with a few exceptions theyre being put in position to succeed. Dont take my suggestion that Harbaugh is more important as "Trent is NOT important." He is. The OP suggested what i would do when given a "sophies choice" decision. I think this whole thing is a soap opera. These are two grown men. They need to be able to work together. I'm not shocked that there is friction, but move on and get past it.
  • pd24
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 2,116
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Originally posted by pd24:
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Originally posted by pd24:
Idiotic statement.

He's using hyperbole and its just a joke
Even then, why riot without seeing the result on the field?

Ever been in a riot? Not exactly patient/sophisticated people.
lol
Originally posted by Lunchwagon:
Originally posted by NCommand:
You know, it's kind of interesting...what we're really talking about here is talent inspite of coaching and coaching up talent. In this scenario, we'll assume Fangio and his staff stay. I'd hope the ST staff leaves (they suck). Baalke stays and continues to infuse top notch talent via FA (including our own) and the draft.
On offense:
CK - has no ceiling; is now playing in a completly different system than in college and still playing very well; how much has coaching helped here? Or is it talent? Most questions people have with him are mechanics, preparation, vision, pocket ability, etc.
Gore - safe to say that no matter what OC we had, he was successful?
Boldin - same thing? Any system, he's great.
VD - same thing? First a blocker and then became the primary pass catching target? He does both well.
Goodwin - PB/Superbowl center before coming here.
Iupati/Davis - both first round talents (same consistent issues though)
McDonald - slot pass catcher in college, but is a blocker here.
Hunter/James? Never used
Kyle Williams/Baldwin/Jenkins? Ummm
Boone - you can put this one on coaching and development, no doubt. Harbaugh was his biggest backer!

So again, re: the offensive side of the ball, how much did coaching really help, "bring it all together;" this 30th ranked offense?

I have no doubt re: coaching...JUST coaching, Harbaugh is one of the best team managers there is but we can't ignore these offensive player development issues (talent vs. coaching) OR the fact that he cost us the Superbowl and NFCCG with very poor game management (called TO on the TD) and poor situational awareness (signing off on plays like Crabtre x3 and Crabtree again) as well.

Our "ranks" dont really mean alot. I think its very clear that our players are getting coached up, and with a few exceptions theyre being put in position to succeed. Dont take my suggestion that Harbaugh is more important as "Trent is NOT important." He is. The OP suggested what i would do when given a "sophies choice" decision. I think this whole thing is a soap opera. These are two grown men. They need to be able to work together. I'm not shocked that there is friction, but move on and get past it.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to say, "Hey, we should target Boldin, Crabtree & VD 75% of the time in the passing game and continue to use Gore as the bell cow." I don't qualifiy that as coaching up these guys; guys that were already well developed and established as clear-cut all-pro's or PBers. Coaching up a guy is someone like Boone. McDonald, Baldwin, Kilgore, Looney, Marquardt, etc; utilizing player strengths and minimizing weaknesses. One move like bringing in Boldin for a 6th rounder is more than Harbaugh and his entire offensive staff have coached up after 3 years (minus Rathman with Miller). Seriously. Maybe you can put CK in that category but he clearly still lacks basic QB mechanics, footwork, vision, touch, etc. That's coaching. Coaching up is also helping to ID a clear-cut vision/ID on offense. Can anyone tell me what kind of offense we run? What's our ID?

But in the end, you are right! Both are men that were married from day 1 and need to work it out. Together, they are an epic team. Baalke is in a tough spot b/c I'm sure he's like us...we love Harbaugh...we don't want him to leave...hell, Baalke was the one who brought him in...but clearly, there are some $, power and serious issues on offense that need to be addressed somehow if we are ever to obtain #6. And are there personality and other philosophical clashes as well?

So how does Baalke and the FO deal with it?
[ Edited by NCommand on Feb 25, 2014 at 12:55 PM ]
Originally posted by LBSI9ers:
Originally posted by Bali-Niner:
Originally posted by VDpwndMjenkins:
Either way,if we lose either one of em over some b******t,i will be utterly pissed.I swear to God on a stack of Qurans,Bibles and Torahs I will truly be done wit these mfs.F**kers will have cooked the golden goose,tore up a great thing,over what??ALL of em can go to hell if it falls apart,along with Jeds daddy.I will forever love the team of my childhood,EDDIE'S TEAM,our players n legacy,but these present day mfs are starting to really piss me off if any of this "internal beef" crap is true.

You have, a valid point fer sure man..sad as it is to say.

Fair weather fan?

Its called venting,i dont want either one to leave.
  • Jcool
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 15,150
Originally posted by NCommand:
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to say, "Hey, we should target Boldin, Crabtree & VD 75% of the time in the passing game and continue to use Gore as the bell cow." I don't qualifiy that as coaching up these guys that were already well developed and established as clear-cut all-pro's or PBers. Coaching up a guy is someone like Boone. One move like bringing in Boldin for a 6th rounder is more than Harbaugh and his entire staff have coached up after 3 years (minus Rathman with Miller). Seriously. Maybe you can put CK in that category but he clearly lacks basic mechanics, footwork, vision, etc. That's coaching. Coaching up is also helping to ID a clear-cut vision on offense. Can anyone tell me what kind of offense we run? What's our ID?

But in the end, you are right! Both are men that were married from day 1 and need to work it out. Together, they are an epic team. Baalke is in a tough spot b/c I'm sure he's like us...we love Harbaugh...we don't want him to leave...hell, HE was the one who brought him in...but clearly, there are some $, power and serious issues on offense if we are to obtain #6. So how does he deal with it?

Really? You don't know what kind of offense we run? I thought that was pretty much common knowledge by now. Also no Baalke did not bring Harbaugh in. Jed York is the man responsible for landing Harbaugh.
  • pd24
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 2,116
Member Milestone: This is post number 1,800 for pd24.
Originally posted by Jcool:
Originally posted by NCommand:
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to say, "Hey, we should target Boldin, Crabtree & VD 75% of the time in the passing game and continue to use Gore as the bell cow." I don't qualifiy that as coaching up these guys that were already well developed and established as clear-cut all-pro's or PBers. Coaching up a guy is someone like Boone. One move like bringing in Boldin for a 6th rounder is more than Harbaugh and his entire staff have coached up after 3 years (minus Rathman with Miller). Seriously. Maybe you can put CK in that category but he clearly lacks basic mechanics, footwork, vision, etc. That's coaching. Coaching up is also helping to ID a clear-cut vision on offense. Can anyone tell me what kind of offense we run? What's our ID?

But in the end, you are right! Both are men that were married from day 1 and need to work it out. Together, they are an epic team. Baalke is in a tough spot b/c I'm sure he's like us...we love Harbaugh...we don't want him to leave...hell, HE was the one who brought him in...but clearly, there are some $, power and serious issues on offense if we are to obtain #6. So how does he deal with it?

Really? You don't know what kind of offense we run? I thought that was pretty much common knowledge by now. Also no Baalke did not bring Harbaugh in. Jed York is the man responsible for landing Harbaugh.

Together, York and Baalke targeted Harbaugh, the Stanford coach who'd emerged as a favorite for jobs with the Dolphins, Broncos and the University of Michigan. The 49ers interviewed him first, for five hours. DeBartolo called Harbaugh on behalf of his nephew, just to remind him of what happened the last time the 49ers hired a coach from Stanford.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9748887/san-francisco-49ers-owner-turned-franchise-stadium-espn-magazine

It was both of them, Eddie also put in a call. You think Harbaugh signed without talking to the GM and asking what types of players he looks for? You think a guy like Harbaugh didn't have Baalke break down the way he drafts and ask about his background?
Originally posted by Jcool:
Really? You don't know what kind of offense we run? I thought that was pretty much common knowledge by now. Also no Baalke did not bring Harbaugh in. Jed York is the man responsible for landing Harbaugh.

LOL. What? Now Jed brought in Harbaugh?

Anyhow, yes, we are a run on first down, intermediate pass on 2nd and 3rd down and implosion in the RZ.

My point is, what IS this offense? Pro-style (what kind)? WCO? Spread? Pistol? Digit-system? Of the 350 pages, it "seems" like a conglomerate of it all.
Originally posted by NCommand:
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to say, "Hey, we should target Boldin, Crabtree & VD 75% of the time in the passing game and continue to use Gore as the bell cow." I don't qualifiy that as coaching up these guys; guys that were already well developed and established as clear-cut all-pro's or PBers. Coaching up a guy is someone like Boone. McDonald, Baldwin, Kilgore, Looney, Marquardt, etc; utilizing player strengths and minimizing weaknesses. One move like bringing in Boldin for a 6th rounder is more than Harbaugh and his entire offensive staff have coached up after 3 years (minus Rathman with Miller). Seriously. Maybe you can put CK in that category but he clearly still lacks basic QB mechanics, footwork, vision, touch, etc. That's coaching. Coaching up is also helping to ID a clear-cut vision/ID on offense. Can anyone tell me what kind of offense we run? What's our ID?

But in the end, you are right! Both are men that were married from day 1 and need to work it out. Together, they are an epic team. Baalke is in a tough spot b/c I'm sure he's like us...we love Harbaugh...we don't want him to leave...hell, HE was the one who brought him in...but clearly, there are some $, power and serious issues on offense that need to be addressed someone if we are ever to obtain #6. And are there personality and other philosophical clashes as well?

So how does he deal with it?

I dont actually think that Harbaugh is the ONE person coaching each guy, but he and his staff seem to be getting guys to play better. The way i judge that is 40+ wins. 3 straight NFCC. (In my best card-playing russian John Malkovich voice) "Pay 'da man" I think Trent has to realize that no matter what he does, if the coach continues to win, he is going to get more power, no matter how much he would want to hold on to it. Its that way for every GM.