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The All-Modern Era 49ers team

Originally posted by crake49:
"QB: Steve Young-If you look past the whole "clutch" hype, Young was the better QB, and it's not even debatable. When you're picking your QB, you're looking for the top guy to run a great offense, not some legend of, "hey, he mentioned John Candy in the stands and led a game winning SB drive." You have to GET to the SB first. Young was held back from more rings by flawed 49ers teams in the 90s."

When you start with a half-baked take like this, it's hard to take anything else you lay out seriously. Clutch is not hype. Clutch is clutch. You only get called that when you win games in the clutch. It's not some mystical concept. Young's arm was a bit stronger and he was a faster runner. But, for most of his career, he really wasn't at Montana's level in terms of seeing the field, staying calm in the pocket, finding receivers and understanding defenses. You ridicule Garcia's "happy feet." I've got news for you - Young had a huge case of "happy feet" for the first 7 or 8 years he was on the team. People around here would have been slamming Young all through the 91, 92 and 93 season. And, those teams were not "flawed." They featured powerful run defenses, real good secondaries, great receivers, real good running backs and a Hall of Fame QB.


IMO the biggest flaws in the 90's (besides terry kirby) was Mooch. i liked him, nice guy, but he was just "ok" as a coach, he wasn't that special, his stats in SF are only an indication of how good of a team he inherited.
Originally posted by 49erfeeeever808:
.............................................waiting for someone to pick Steve Young over Montana, and then this whole thread goes south.

no that's Alex Smith
Originally posted by crake49:
"QB: Steve Young-If you look past the whole "clutch" hype, Young was the better QB, and it's not even debatable. When you're picking your QB, you're looking for the top guy to run a great offense, not some legend of, "hey, he mentioned John Candy in the stands and led a game winning SB drive." You have to GET to the SB first. Young was held back from more rings by flawed 49ers teams in the 90s."

When you start with a half-baked take like this, it's hard to take anything else you lay out seriously. Clutch is not hype. Clutch is clutch. You only get called that when you win games in the clutch. It's not some mystical concept. Young's arm was a bit stronger and he was a faster runner. But, for most of his career, he really wasn't at Montana's level in terms of seeing the field, staying calm in the pocket, finding receivers and understanding defenses. You ridicule Garcia's "happy feet." I've got news for you - Young had a huge case of "happy feet" for the first 7 or 8 years he was on the team. People around here would have been slamming Young all through the 91, 92 and 93 season. And, those teams were not "flawed." They featured powerful run defenses, real good secondaries, great receivers, real good running backs and a Hall of Fame QB.

You have absolutely, utterly, NO CLUE what you are talking about.

Young was better in every single statistical category than Montana. He is the most accurate QB to ever play professional football. His intermediate and deep ball is as good as you will ever see. He was a "pass maker." In terms of passing talent, he effortlessly made the types of throws other QBs strain themselves trying and failing to make, effortlessly putting it in the perfect spot for the completion.

Montana's "clutchness" would not have been a factor if he hadn't usually been part of the reason his teams were behind in the first place. The 49ers had scored just 13 points against a mediocre Bengals defense in Super Bowl XXIII. He also required Louis Billiups to drop an INT in order to find Jerry Rice for his first TD pass of the game.

Young wasn't lacking in the ability to be clutch himself. His throw to Owens in the 99 wild card game was better than any throw Montana ever made in his entire career. Watch that throw again. There are FIVE guys in the vicinity of the throw...Young's throw was the only way that pass could ever be completed. Brett Fave's reaction to it was, "you have GOT to be kidding me. They've got the only guy in the game who could make that pass other than me."

It's not Young's fault the 1993 and 1998 defenses were terrible. It's not Young's fault the 1995 team's top ranked defense was shredded by Favre, and that he had only one healthy weapon on offense (Rice). It's not Young's fault Grbac lost the 96 wildcard game to the Packers.

Young can take some of the blame in 1992 and 1997, but 1992 was a team loss based on key mistakes against one of the greatest teams of all-time, the 1992 Cowboys, and 1997 was an offense ultimately lacking in weapons with a rusty Hearst unable to get anything going on the ground coming back from the collarbone injury and a young Terrell Owens being the only real weapon in the passing game (Brent Jones was playing his final game and was badly beat up, and J.J. Stokes was a mediocre WR).

Young most certainly did NOT have happy feet. Jesus Christ...you don't know what happy feet are. Young had perfect pocket mechanics. In his younger years he had a tendency to try to do too much himself and would run rather than going through his progressions. That's not happy feet - happy feet is when you don't set your feet and have no pocket presence, creating pressure that isn't there and sacking yourself/getting yourself hit.

THIS is happy feet: http://www.angelfire.com/planet/jorvin/garciaskittish_0001.wmv

Young from 1992-1998 was as good as any QB to have played the game...at least in the last 35 years.

And I love how you again show your lack of knowledge in insisting those teams weren't flawed.

The 1991 49ers had multiple players hurt, including Steve Young missing several games himself.

The 1992 49ers' secondary was Eric Davis when he was one of the worst corners in football, Dave Whittmore, and atrocious first round bust Dana Hall. There's a reason Alvin Harper is coasting to the end of the 49ers' chances at the end of the NFCC game...I'd go back and watch if you need a reminder.

The 1993 49ers' defense was just terrible as a whole. They couldn't stop Dallas if their lives depended on it. Michael Carter had retired. Kevan f*gan's career was over after the back injury. Pierce Holt was in Atlanta. Keena Turner had long since retired. Charles Haley was on the other sideline. Matt Millen was long retired. Jeff Fuller and Chet Brooks were retired. Ronnie Lott, overrated though he was, was on the Jets. A young Merton Hanks was the only bright spot on that defense.

The 1995 49ers' defense was excellent during the regular season, but Favre cut through them like a hot knife through butter in the postseason. Again, go back and watch the game. They had ZERO running game - Derek Loville and Adam Walker were the backfield. Brent Jones was playing with torn ligaments in his knee...had popped on a knee brace. John Taylor was playing his final game and was beat up and ineffective. J.J. Stokes was a bust.

The 1996 49ers...Young played only one series against GB before it became clear the rib injury he'd suffered against the Eagles was too much. Grbac came in and the 49ers lost.

The 1997 49ers...Hearst coming off a collarbone injury, no Rice, Owens still young, Stokes is still mediocre, Jones is playing his last game and beat up.

The 1998 49ers...horrible defense. Secondary was a revolving door at corner, linebackers were washed up, Winfred Tubbs was a terrible fit for the scheme, Gabe Wilkins...LOL! Bryant Young was out with a broken leg. Junior Bryant and Gabe Wilkins were the tackles.

So yes, FLAWED. F-L-A-W-E-D.
Originally posted by calinig4life:
at bold. "If u take out the "clutch" hype". That's what made Montana special. No one thinks Montana is one of the best QBs', if not the G.O.A.T. cause he saw John Candy at the start of a SB winning drive. That may not sound stupid to anyone else but to me u ssound sstuupid. You lost credit from me by hating on Montana & coming up with excuses for Young. Leaving Ronnie Lott out, that's -able too. I respect your choices but the QB position & leaving Lott out are jokes & "it's NOT even close".

I explained why I'd take Hanks over Lott. Lott gets too much hype for highlight reel hits. That looks nice in the reels, but if you actually watch the games, Lott missed way too many tackles in going for the big hit and he was never a great cover guy.
Originally posted by 49ersScoutHistorian:
You have absolutely, utterly, NO CLUE what you are talking about.


Calm down man. I actually DO have a clue. I'm the last guy who's going to put Steve Young down. He's one of my all-time favorite Niners. But you're overstating the degree to which he is better than Montana statistically and it's simply not true that he is better in all statistical categories. Here's an important one: fourth quarter comebacks. Young had 14 over the course of his career and Montana had 31. And how about game winning drives: Young had 17 in his career and Montana had 33. It is true that Young had a marginally better career completion percentage 64.3 to 63.2. Montana had marginally better average yards per game: 211.2 to 196. They had exactly the same interception ratio and Young had a slightly better TD to pass attempts ratio, but that's very close.

But the reason a fan with a clue might call Montana more "clutch" is not hype, as you call it. It's related to those two important stats I gave you above. Again, Montana had 31 fourth quarter comebacks to Young's 14 and Montana had 33 game winning drives to Young's 17. And Montana had over a 71% winning percentage in games he started and Young had a 65.7 % winning percentage in games he started. Now, I agree with you that on the whole, Montana had better teams than Young did, but you're making it sound like a slam-dunk that Young outclasses Montana and I think that's at best a huge stretch and at worst, a failure to take into consideration the most important stat of all - winning and losing.
Originally posted by 49ersScoutHistorian:

Young most certainly did NOT have happy feet. Jesus Christ...you don't know what happy feet are. Young had perfect pocket mechanics. In his younger years he had a tendency to try to do too much himself and would run rather than going through his progressions. That's not happy feet - happy feet is when you don't set your feet and have no pocket presence, creating pressure that isn't there and sacking yourself/getting yourself hit.


More clues: Montana career sack %: 5.5; Young career sack %: 7.9
Originally posted by 49ersScoutHistorian:

The 1993 49ers' defense was just terrible as a whole. They couldn't stop Dallas if their lives depended on it. Michael Carter had retired. Kevan f*gan's career was over after the back injury. Pierce Holt was in Atlanta. Keena Turner had long since retired. Charles Haley was on the other sideline. Matt Millen was long retired. Jeff Fuller and Chet Brooks were retired. Ronnie Lott, overrated though he was, was on the Jets. A young Merton Hanks was the only bright spot on that defense.


Well, Merton Hanks wasn't the ONLY bright spot. Dana Stubblefield was the defensive rookie of the year. They were average, not "just terrible as a whole." They were 13th in team defense yardage, just above the median. And, for someone throwing out insults about having a clue, get a clue about Jeff Fuller. He wasn't really retired was he. His career ended due to a catastrophic injury years before that. The SS was Tim McDonald and he was very good.
Originally posted by crake49:
Calm down man. I actually DO have a clue. I'm the last guy who's going to put Steve Young down. He's one of my all-time favorite Niners. But you're overstating the degree to which he is better than Montana statistically and it's simply not true that he is better in all statistical categories. Here's an important one: fourth quarter comebacks. Young had 14 over the course of his career and Montana had 31. And how about game winning drives: Young had 17 in his career and Montana had 33. It is true that Young had a marginally better career completion percentage 64.3 to 63.2. Montana had marginally better average yards per game: 211.2 to 196. They had exactly the same interception ratio and Young had a slightly better TD to pass attempts ratio, but that's very close.

But the reason a fan with a clue might call Montana more "clutch" is not hype, as you call it. It's related to those two important stats I gave you above. Again, Montana had 31 fourth quarter comebacks to Young's 14 and Montana had 33 game winning drives to Young's 17. And Montana had over a 71% winning percentage in games he started and Young had a 65.7 % winning percentage in games he started. Now, I agree with you that on the whole, Montana had better teams than Young did, but you're making it sound like a slam-dunk that Young outclasses Montana and I think that's at best a huge stretch and at worst, a failure to take into consideration the most important stat of all - winning and losing.

Young didn't have to come back as much in the 4th quarter because he would consistently have the 49ers in the lead.

You're looking at miscalculations that are totaling games Young didn't start (or even play in) if you're coming up with those passing yards per game figures. Actually, same with Montana. Young still beat him decisively in passing yards per game, TDs per game, etc. Young threw for 4,000+ yards twice, and would have had 3 of those if he hadn't been rested for 3 quarters of the 1994 season finale against the Vikings.

Young's career completion percentage with the 49ers was 65.8%. You can't count Young's days with the Bucs, who were the jokes of the NFL.
Originally posted by defenderDX:
Originally posted by 49erfeeeever808:
.............................................waiting for someone to pick Steve Young over Montana, and then this whole thread goes south.

no that's Alex Smith

Originally posted by crake49:
More clues: Montana career sack %: 5.5; Young career sack %: 7.9

More clues: Those 49er lines were not very good in pass protection. Steve Wallace was out of position at LT (he was a guard in college in a run-first program at Auburn). Harris Barton was overrated. Jesse Sapolu was incredibly overrated. Guy McIntyre was the only legitimate elite offensive lineman.

You want an even better picture? Look at how often Montana was sacked in 1988 and 1989 compared to other years, when the same linemen Young would have in the 90s were starting to become his guys. Keith Fahnhorst was sorely missed.
Originally posted by crake49:
Well, Merton Hanks wasn't the ONLY bright spot. Dana Stubblefield was the defensive rookie of the year. They were average, not "just terrible as a whole." They were 13th in team defense yardage, just above the median. And, for someone throwing out insults about having a clue, get a clue about Jeff Fuller. He wasn't really retired was he. His career ended due to a catastrophic injury years before that. The SS was Tim McDonald and he was very good.

Tim McDonald was a glorified linebacker and a huge liability in coverage at safety.

The 1993 team ranked dead last vs. the run in terms of yards per rush.

Fuller was retired because of said injury.

I'd recommend re-watching the 93-94 NFCCG. The Cowboys scored TDs on each of their first two drives, marching methodically down the field. Emmitt Smith was throwing Romanowski and John Johnson off his back after catching passes out of the backfield and the Cowboys were just in complete control.

The only way the 49ers could have won was in a shootout, and Dallas's defense was too good to allow that to happen, regardless of how talented the 49ers were on offense.
[ Edited by 49ersScoutHistorian on Jan 29, 2014 at 5:10 PM ]
  • BobS
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 7,889
Originally posted by Niners99:
If you made an All-Pro roster for the 49ers from the beginning of the Walsh era (1979) until the current 2013 team, what would the team look like? Only 1 spot per position, based on impact to the team and/or longevity. (2nd WR spot must be a secondary WR at the time, not just the 2nd best WR1.) Since we played both the 4-3 and the 3-4, pick 2 DT and 2 ILB's.

QB- Joe Montana
RB- Frank Gore
FB- Tom Rathman
WR1- Jerry Rice
WR2- John Taylor
TE- Vernon Davis
LT- Joe Staley
LG- Guy McIntyre
C- Jesse Sapolu
RG- Randy Cross
RT- Harris Barton

LDE- Roy Barker
DT- Bryant Young
DT- Dana Stubblefield
RDE- Justin Smith
LOLB- Charles Haley
MLB- Patrick Willis
MLB- NaVorro Bowman
ROLB- Aldon Smith
LCB- Deion Sanders
RCB- Eric Wright
SS- Tim McDonald
FS- Ronnie Lott

K- Ray Wersching
P- Andy Lee

I noticed weve had a pretty sad group of CB's overall in the last 35 years. Lott counted as a FS, so that didnt leave much. Deion's impact in 1994 alone won him a spot. Weve also done a pretty pathetic job of finding a good 2nd WR after the John Taylor days. Outside the brief window when Rice and Owens were good at the same time, its been pretty rough. Thank goodness for Anquan Boldin.

Id put this team up against anyone elses from the same time span.

Yes, I know, this is very much an offseason thread, but its a fun concept.
The only obvious bad pick was Ray Wersching you can't be serious, he could not make anything over 45 yards with a 20 mph wind behind him on turf. Why he was on the team in the non salary cap era for 10 or so years is beyond me.
  • BobS
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 7,889
Originally posted by GEEK:
QB: Cody Pickett
RB: Maurice Hicks
FB: Chris Heatherington

TE: Steve Bush
WR: RaShaun Woods
WR: Taylor Jacobs

LT: Jonas Jennings
LG: David Baas
C: Cody Wallace
RG: Chilo Rachal
RT: Kwame Harris

LE: Andrew Williams
NT: Kentwan Balmer
DT: Ronald Fields
RE: Melvin Oliver

OLB: Saleem Rasheed
ILB: Brandon Moore
OLB: Hannibal Naives

CB: Mike Rumph
CB: Bruce Thornton
FS: Mark Roman
SS: Taylor Mays

K: Jose Cortez
P: Barry Helton
I don't think it's fair to put Jonas Jennings in there, he was actually a good player when healthy. Unfortunately he was rarely healthy.
[ Edited by BobS on Jan 29, 2014 at 6:38 PM ]
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by GEEK:
QB: Cody Pickett
RB: Maurice Hicks
FB: Chris Heatherington

TE: Steve Bush
WR: RaShaun Woods
WR: Taylor Jacobs

LT: Jonas Jennings
LG: David Baas
C: Cody Wallace
RG: Chilo Rachal
RT: Kwame Harris

LE: Andrew Williams
NT: Kentwan Balmer
DT: Ronald Fields
RE: Melvin Oliver

OLB: Saleem Rasheed
ILB: Brandon Moore
OLB: Hannibal Naives

CB: Mike Rumph
CB: Bruce Thornton
FS: Mark Roman
SS: Taylor Mays

K: Jose Cortez
P: Barry Helton
I don't think it's fair to put Jonas Jennings in there, he was actually a good player when healthy. Unfortunately he was rarely healthy.

This team may actually lose to a top NCAA team. How sad that we depended on these at some point as starters.
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 25,863
Originally posted by BobS:
I don't think it's fair to put Jonas Jennings in there, he was actually a good player when healthy. Unfortunately he was rarely healthy.

like bowman