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Out-Coached! = Why did Seattle dominate both our O-line and our D-line?

Originally posted by TheGoldMineSF:
Steve Young wasnt exactly good until 89. Had similar problems to Kaepernick and then he figured it out. I have no doubt Kaepernick will improve and get us a ring or two before he's done.

I hope so, I believe in Kaep's talent, but he needs to be ice cold in the pocket, start beating teams with his head and not his feet. We've went back and forth about that last play on Sunday, but they don't call this a game of inches for no reason. It took Steve awhile too, those games against the Cowboys when our own guy Haley was a wreaking havoc.
I keep imagining what lesser teams with good coaches could do with talent like this. Let's forget about teams with elite QBs but say a team like the Chargers. They would kill if they had our D and O lines.
[ Edited by GoldenChips on Jan 22, 2014 at 7:29 PM ]
Originally posted by thl408:
Regarding converting to a zone blocking scheme, if you want that to happen then get ready to draft 4 new starting Olineman. One of the prerequisites for being a zone blocking Olineman is nimble feet. Agility is prized over strength. I can see Staley being the only holdover that can work in a zone blocking scheme because he is such a well rounded Olineman. The maulers that the 49ers currently have in Boone, Iupati, and ADavis will not have their skillset translate well to zone blocking. We can thank Sing for this, as he asked Baalke to go for big strong Olinemen. This was actually touched on during the season, and it was said that the 49ers do use some zone blocking plays, mainly on the read option. But that is straight ahead zone blocking. We see some stretch plays to the edges that the 49ers fail at and that is a glimpse to what would happen if the 49ers went to a pure ZB scheme (run left/right) with their current personnel.

Great topic, ball control passing. I would love to see more of this in the 49er offense. I think this starts with Kap and him looking to dump it off as a third/fourth option in his progression as opposed to looking to extend the play while looking downfield. That's just his mentality at this stage in his career. The checkdown routes are being sent out, they just aren't utilized by Kap. The checkdown routes to Kap is like option #5. I hope that as Kap learns to just take what's being given on a single play, throws to the RBs will get a slight uptick. I do not think that throwing to RBs will have the same success as it did back in the Walsh days. LBs nowadays run faster than many RBs. This was not the case back in the 80's when many LBs were big plodding run stoppers. Now the LBs are the most athletic players on the field it seems and they can track down RBs and reduce RAC, which is what Craig and Watters thrived on.

TEs can also be used for ball control passing, but many of VDs routes are downfield since he is the only guy that can stretch a defense vertically. When (hopefully) the 49ers get a vertical threat at WR, we may see more VD routes sent short to intermediate as the new WR can be used to go downfield and take over that role for the offense.

I know our linemen are bigger than typical zone-blockers, but Iupati, Staley and Boone are all quick and athletic, and I would think that elements of zone blocking could be incorporated. (Also Davis was the #11 overall pick, should be fairly athletic). For whatever reason, with purportedly the best O-line in NFL, they couldn't run a lick! Why do you think that was? I think it's because they were loading 8 in the box, daring us to pass. But we couldn't pass either! Why is that? Is that Kap's fault? Partly I think it is, but mostly I think it's a failure of offensive scheme and play-calling.

Also, not all routes to RB's are check-downs, a good OC like Walsh often called RB's as primary receiver. And regarding TE's, McDonald played ~60% of snaps and only had 8 catches, even though he came in as a highly regarded receiving TE. His college back-up caught 20 passes for Seattle.

Walsh always said that defense requires great players, but offense requires great coaching. If you subtract Kap's runs we only gained 184 total yards. We have great players, yet our offense sucks, and that is mostly d/t bad offense scheme and coaching .
The only reason Seattle won was because the refs f**ked us on the running into the kicker call, Harbaugh negated the f**king penalty, giving Carroll the decision to show some balls on 4th & 7, and the entire game shifted in Seattle's favor. Our entire team was literally f**king finished after that happened.

It's those signature s**tty calls/results in games that mystically f**k the outcome in the end. Like all the blown time-outs in the Superbowl last year.
Or number three, which is Seattle has a great defense and "just pass and/or run for more yards" is a gross oversimplification. Also, they had some crucial calls go their way. It is what is.

Onto next season.
[ Edited by baltien on Jan 22, 2014 at 8:59 PM ]
Originally posted by maxsmart:
I know our linemen are bigger than typical zone-blockers, but Iupati, Staley and Boone are all quick and athletic, and I would think that elements of zone blocking could be incorporated. (Also Davis was the #11 overall pick, should be fairly athletic). For whatever reason, with purportedly the best O-line in NFL, they couldn't run a lick! Why do you think that was? I think it's because they were loading 8 in the box, daring us to pass. But we couldn't pass either! Why is that? Is that Kap's fault? Partly I think it is, but mostly I think it's a failure of offensive scheme and play-calling.

Also, not all routes to RB's are check-downs, a good OC like Walsh often called RB's as primary receiver. And regarding TE's, McDonald played ~60% of snaps and only had 8 catches, even though he came in as a highly regarded receiving TE. His college back-up caught 20 passes for Seattle.

Walsh always said that defense requires great players, but offense requires great coaching. If you subtract Kap's runs we only gained 184 total yards. We have great players, yet our offense sucks, and that is mostly d/t bad offense scheme and coaching .

Regarding Mcdonald, I think his lack of receiving was probably 50/50 50% Kaps comfort with an unknown receiver and 50% coaches wanting him to learn how to block, I remember that being a concern at draft time, and in Harbaughs first year Vernons receiving numbers were low due to blocking and learning the full TE position.
Originally posted by LoneWolf:
Regarding Mcdonald, I think his lack of receiving was probably 50/50 50% Kaps comfort with an unknown receiver and 50% coaches wanting him to learn how to block, I remember that being a concern at draft time, and in Harbaughs first year Vernons receiving numbers were low due to blocking and learning the full TE position.

I think 50% OC not spreading the ball around with some nice short ball-control passes to the 2nd TE. Steve Young always said the TE is the QB's best friend because it's easy to complete passes to the TE and gets you in a groove. People made excuses for Nolan while he was here, and Singletary, and now they defend Roman. But if we had an really good OC, McDonald would have many more catches and we would score an extra 5-10 points per game.
Originally posted by maxsmart:
I think 50% OC not spreading the ball around with some nice short ball-control passes to the 2nd TE. Steve Young always said the TE is the QB's best friend because it's easy to complete passes to the TE and gets you in a groove. People made excuses for Nolan while he was here, and Singletary, and now they defend Roman. But if we had an really good OC, McDonald would have many more catches and we would score an extra 5-10 points per game.

I hink next season well se more production receiving wise from MCdonald, this year i think was the time to address the concerns coming out of the draft, and by the playoffs he had become a great blocker.
  • LVJay
  • Veteran
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And what was the deal with Harbaugh saving timeouts like it precious gold

And WTF is all this talk http://www.csnbayarea.com/49ers/sources-mangini-considered-49ers-qbs-coach
they didnt dominate anything...we win that game if Kaep doesn't throw 2 picks and fumble...
  • dmax
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 6,130
Originally posted by maxsmart:
We are supposed to have the 'best' O-line in the NFL, yet we couldn't run. We are supposed to have the best front 7 yet we couldn't stop Seattle's run. I think we have more talent than Seattle. We have many more more pro bowl picks, so that leaves two main possibilities:

#1. Out schemed / out-coached
#2. Our players are over-rated

I think our O-line and D-line are both a little bit over-rated, but are still good enough to beat Seattle.
I think our main problem is offensive coaching and scheme. We should go back more to the west-coast roots of short quick ball-control passes to the running backs and Tight ends, and also more 'zone-blocking' by the O-line (like Walsh and McKittrick). Zone blocking would allow Gore/Lattimore/Hunter to find and pick the hole, and they all have great vision so they would excel in that scheme.

Regarding ball-control passing:
Gore only had 16 catches = 1 per game! Kendall Hunter had 2 catches on the entire year! [Roger Craig averaged ~75 catches a year for 5 years in a row! Ricky Watters averaged 60 catches per year.]
Vernon Davis is all-pro talent, 1 or 2 most talented TE in NFL, yet only gets ~50 catches per year. We trade up for McDonald and he only gets 8 catches! Celek has only 2 catches! Might as well play Kilgore at TE. Plus we rarely throw deep to loosen up the defense, so they crowd the mid-range routes. Our offense sucks because of coaching and scheme more so than talent!

Walsh always said that defense requires great players, but offense requires great coaching. If you subtract Kap's runs we only gained 184 total yards. We have great players, yet our offense sucks, and that is mostly d/t bad offense scheme and coaching .

This ...THIS
Originally posted by T-9ers:
Originally posted by JimA49ers:
Originally posted by T-9ers:
You guys want a Super Bowl but we got like the 10th best QB in the league. Can't tell me we ain't got a Super caliber team elsewhere, we do. Seahawks stacked the box, dared Kaep to throw, he couldn't get it done. There's been almost 50 Super Bowls played and a running QB has won none of them, so you can keepall that running stuff. I'll take 300 yds. and 3 td's passing anyday. Just look at Montana's comments from about a week ago about Kaep, you think he just made that stuff up? Kaep has to stay in the pocket and make clutch throws under pressure, beating teams with his brain. I'd like to ask Pete Carroll about that last play, I bet he'll take that match-up and situation a 100 times out of a 100.

10th??? Really? I would love to hear your list. Also, no running QB ever won a SB? Ever hear of the name Steve Young?

steve young was not a running qb. youre talking about the highest rated passer ever. how old are u?
Old enough to know he's ALSO the #2 rushing QB of all time.
NFL CAREER QB RUSHING LEADERS: NO. 2: STEVE YOUNG, 4,239 YARDS
BOOM!
[ Edited by JimA49ers on Jan 23, 2014 at 12:54 PM ]
All, I won't get into the X's and O's since I'm not qualified to do so. But it seems to me that this game could very well have gone either way. These teams are so equaly matched, it's rediculous. I guess the Superbowl will need to be played before I have any proof. But it really seems like the Niners and Seahawks are the two best teams in the NFL. A convincing Seahawks win will clarify the accuracy of that statement.

That said, it seems to me any conversation about any sort of drastic retooling, firing coaches, etc - is WAY over the top. You guys get a few officiating calls that go your way, a few (generous) spots on Lynch runs called differently, and a couple more inches of trajectory on the final toss by Kaepernick, and we're all having a very different conversation right now....(probably with me not being hated to quite the same degree).

Also, I think Kaepernick impressed the hell out of Seahawks fans this game. None of us really thought he could rise to the challenge like that. But he proved us wrong. He is a scary QB talent. As he diversifies his passing options (which he will), his up side is most certainly off the charts. Bring back a 100% healthy Crabtree next year, and you know this team is gonna battling for the top spot at the end of next years race. So why would you want to change anything?
[ Edited by OahuHawkFan on Jan 23, 2014 at 1:07 PM ]
Originally posted by OahuHawkFan:
All, I won't get into the X's and O's since I'm not qualified to do so. But it seems to me that this game could very well have gone either way. These teams are so equaly matched, it's rediculous. I guess the Superbowl will need to be played before I have any proof. But it really seems like the Niners and Seahawks are the two best teams in the NFL. A convincing Seahawks win will clarify the accuracy of that statement.

That said, it seems to me any conversation about any sort of drastic retooling, firing coaches, etc - is WAY over the top. You guys get a few officiating calls that go your way, a few (generous) spots on Lynch runs called differently, and a couple more inches of trajectory on the final toss by Kaepernick, and we're all having a very different conversation right now....(probably with me not being hated to quite the same degree).

Also, I think Kaepernick impressed the hell out of Seahawks fans this game. None of us really thought he could rise to the challenge like that. But he proved us wrong. He is a scary QB talent. As he diversifies his passing options (which he will), his up side is most certainly off the charts. Bring back a 100% healthy Crabtree next year, and you know this team is gonna battling for the top spot at the end of next years race. So why would you want to change anything?

As a SEA fan, what are you guys preparing to toss at injured players during the super bowl. Its the big game so your should take it up a notch. Maybe some crackerjacks this time?

Are you excited to listen to Richard Sherman steal all the attention from the rest of your players? You can add his rants to your incoming caller ringtones.

When your fellow buddies call you can have "MEDIOCRE" ring over and over again so you can feel good about your s**tty franchise.
Originally posted by OahuHawkFan:
All, I won't get into the X's and O's since I'm not qualified to do so. But it seems to me that this game could very well have gone either way. These teams are so equaly matched, it's rediculous. I guess the Superbowl will need to be played before I have any proof. But it really seems like the Niners and Seahawks are the two best teams in the NFL. A convincing Seahawks win will clarify the accuracy of that statement.

That said, it seems to me any conversation about any sort of drastic retooling, firing coaches, etc - is WAY over the top. You guys get a few officiating calls that go your way, a few (generous) spots on Lynch runs called differently, and a couple more inches of trajectory on the final toss by Kaepernick, and we're all having a very different conversation right now....(probably with me not being hated to quite the same degree).

Also, I think Kaepernick impressed the hell out of Seahawks fans this game. None of us really thought he could rise to the challenge like that. But he proved us wrong. He is a scary QB talent. As he diversifies his passing options (which he will), his up side is most certainly off the charts. Bring back a 100% healthy Crabtree next year, and you know this team is gonna battling for the top spot at the end of next years race. So why would you want to change anything?

Not sure if srs..