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Out-Coached! = Why did Seattle dominate both our O-line and our D-line?

Originally posted by NCommand:
Fantastic post and perspective. Do you think that a vertical threat outside is the real answer to this offense? I mean, we had Randy Moss and brought in Marlon Moore who tore it up in the pre season/camp and was brought in to be that vertical threat. We had Tedd Ginn and his 4.2 speed...yet we never even bothered to use any of these guys in that role and stuck with the outside intermediate passing game most of the year. Many of the teams we struggle with are physical DB's who press (and hold) at the LOS so is a deep sideline or post route really going to open up things underneath more or be a higher % play for this offense?

Just curious on your thoughts on how to improve upon this offense given we are probably stuck with it next year as well with even more talented/depth added via FA and the draft.

No doubt a vertical threat can help this offense, especially when they go to their 22 personnel with only 1 WR on the field. It's the one dimension they don't have at the moment. Defenses usually counter with a lone deep safety look when they see this 22 personnel from the 49ers, while placing 9 in the box. Substitute Crabs for a legit deep threat at WR, in addition to VD, and the lone safety is in a tough spot if both the WR and VD go vertical. If they pull one defender out of the box to help the deep safety, the running game just got 1 defender removed. I think this fast WR will help open things underneath, but I don't think throwing to him is the higher percentage play. Talking specifically about SEA, they like to take away the sidelines when they fall into their cover3 look. The area to attack is over the middle, after this fast WR threat helps to push the safety(s) deep. Of course, this is all theorycraft.
I don't think our D-line was dominated...just like Seattle, they gave up some plays, but overall they were stout. Our O-line did a decent job of protecting Kap (can't say Seattle's O-Line protected Wilson very well), but failed to open meaningful holes for Gore. Seattle definitely had the edge getting Lynch running room, particularly in the 2nd half. Part of that success is just Lynch's ability to stay upright...he's a beast, Gore's not (at least in that dimension).
Originally posted by kray28:
Our OL is seriously overrated. I think Staley and Boone are great....the rest were basically mediocre to poor this year.

Seattle basically countered our OL built on power with a front 7 based on speed.


we should have been able to counter that with playcalling (counters, etc.)..... but.......
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Fantastic post and perspective. Do you think that a vertical threat outside is the real answer to this offense? I mean, we had Randy Moss and brought in Marlon Moore who tore it up in the pre season/camp and was brought in to be that vertical threat. We had Tedd Ginn and his 4.2 speed...yet we never even bothered to use any of these guys in that role and stuck with the outside intermediate passing game most of the year. Many of the teams we struggle with are physical DB's who press (and hold) at the LOS so is a deep sideline or post route really going to open up things underneath more or be a higher % play for this offense?

Just curious on your thoughts on how to improve upon this offense given we are probably stuck with it next year as well with even more talented/depth added via FA and the draft.

No doubt a vertical threat can help this offense, especially when they go to their 22 personnel with only 1 WR on the field. It's the one dimension they don't have at the moment. Defenses usually counter with a lone deep safety look when they see this 22 personnel from the 49ers, while placing 9 in the box. Substitute Crabs for a legit deep threat at WR, in addition to VD, and the lone safety is in a tough spot if both the WR and VD go vertical. If they pull one defender out of the box to help the deep safety, the running game just got 1 defender removed. I think this fast WR will help open things underneath, but I don't think throwing to him is the higher percentage play. Talking specifically about SEA, they like to take away the sidelines when they fall into their cover3 look. The area to attack is over the middle, after this fast WR threat helps to push the safety(s) deep. Of course, this is all theorycraft.

We certainly respected Ginn's speed so perhaps just the speed threat alone on the outside will be enough. But like Seattle didn't bother to cover our RB's out of the backfield, why would their secondary assign another DB to an outside speed guy if we never throw to him? But who knows...maybe if we take some shots next year and he proves to be a reliable dimension, it just opens everything up!?
  • kem99
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Originally posted by maxsmart:
We are supposed to have the 'best' O-line in the NFL, yet we couldn't run. We are supposed to have the best front 7 yet we couldn't stop Seattle's run. We have more talent as evidenced by more pro bowl picks, so that leaves two main possibilities:

#1. Out schemed / out-coached
#2. Our players are over-rated

I think our O-line and O-line are both a little bit over-rated.
However I think the main problem is coaching and scheme. We should go back more to the west-coast roots of short quick ball-control passes to the running backs and Tight ends, and also more 'zone-blocking' by the O-line (like Walsh and McKittrick). Zone blocking would allow Gore/Lattimore/Hunter to find and pick the hole, and they all have great vision so they would excel in that scheme.

Regarding ball-control passing:
Gore only had 16 catches = 1 per game! Kendall Hunter had 2 catches on the entire year! [Roger Craig averaged ~75 catches a year for 5 years in a row! Ricky Watters averaged 60 catches per year.]
Vernon Davis is all-pro talent, 1 or 2 most talented TE in NFL, yet only gets ~50 catches per year. We trade up for McDonald and he only gets 8 catches! Celek has only 2 catches! Might as well play Kilgore at TE. Plus we rarely throw deep to loosen up the defense, so they crowd the mid-range routes. Our offense sucks because of coaching and scheme more so than talent!
I understand the point but a couple of your premises are wrong...

First,because of the noise, you would have to expect that the O-Line is going to be at a disadvantage throughout the game against the Seahawks DL. The 49ers overall handled it better than they had previously, but there's a reason the 49ers have won at home against Seattle but lose at Seattle.

Second, with his 100+ yards on Sunday, I believe Lynch now has 4 of the 6 100 yard rushing games against the 49ers defense over the last few years and another game where he had 98 yards. I think at some point you have to give Lynch some credit, especially when the front 7 has done a pretty good job at getting pressure on Russell Wilson,

Third, reference to stats from the 80's and early 90's don't have a lot of substance in today's NFL. Of the top 49 receivers (based on number of catches) for the regular season, 2 were lead RB's (Forte and Charles). The others in the top 49 were Pierre Thomas, Danny Woodhead, Darren Sproles and Knowshon Moreno. That's 2 3rd down backs and 2 backs from a committee approach in two of the most prolific pass offenses in the league. And, lets not forget that Miller was becoming a bigger part of the offense prior to his injury.

I do agree to the extent it would help Kap to check the ball down more but I expect that will come. Right now, if its check the ball down to a RB or have Kap take off running, I can't blame Kap for using his legs, especially since he rarely seems to get hit hard on his runs.

The bottom line, though, is that the league is much more of a WR and TE league than it was during the pure West Coast offense days of the 80's and 90's.

Fourth, the 49ers OL is not built for a zone blocking scheme. Zone blocking teams use smaller lines that are more mobile. That's not the strength of the 49ers line and unless you want to rework the entire OL, it is not likely to happen and lets not forget the 49ers were still one of the best rushing teams in the NFL. They were not as good as they were in 2012 and that needs to be addressed but it is not like the rushing game totally fell off the cliff either.

Fifth, Tomsula is considered one of the best DL coaches in the league and the 49ers rush defense has proven to be one of the best in the league over the last 3 years since Vic Fangio arrived. Do you really believe they got out coached because if you do, you're pointing the finger at Tomsula and Fangio.

On the offensive side, it is not worth getting into the Roman debate since that has its own thread but...the 49ers played the #1 defense statistically in the league on the road and had a 1st and 10 at the Seattle 18 with 30 seconds and 2 time outs left needing a TD to score while playing their 5th road game in 6 weeks. You don't go into Seattle expecting offensive fireworks, but the offense was in position to win the game before the last play.

Sixth, I wouldn't use the number of Pro Bowl players as a gauge to say the 49ers have more talent than Seattle. It seems clear that the 49ers and Seattle have the two best rosters and the talent level is close regardless of who you root for and believe has the better roster.
Originally posted by lamontb:
I hate when folks say other than the long run they stopped the run well. The long run is what killed them. That's the play they needed to stop but couldn't. That's on the players for not getting it done. Especially Reid who had a horrible game.


Anyone who says that other than the 40-yd TD the 49ers stopped the run didn't pay much attention, because the 49ers got carved up in the 2nd half. And I'm not going to watch it again, but I don't know that the Seahawks really did much different with their run game from 1st half into 2nd half...they were pretty consistent in bringing #78 in as tackle-eligible extra TE and ran out of that formation almost every time, maybe 1 or 2 passes from it, but other than that they telegraphed that #78 = run play.

In past games vs 49ers, Seattle has had success in getting 49ers out of their base into nickel by putting 2 TE's on the field, and then gashing them up the middle as it usually meant 49ers had 7 in the box with one of those being Carlos Rogers...as I noted above, they were using #78, but unsure if 49ers did typically respond with nickel. Regardless, end result was that what 49ers shut down cold in 1st half, they couldn't in 2nd and Lynch battered them for well over 5ypc.
http://www.stationcaster.com/player_skinned.php?s=851&c=13821&f=2340683
Fire JH. Get rid of the front 7. We'll be back in the first top 5 pick next year. Problem solved
9 yards away and Keap ,ater playing great for the whole game,throws it to the wrong wr on the last play= outcoached




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Here's a question. Would it be better of we old school, and went back to a 4-3 defense? Remember the old days when we two stud defensive tackles Dana Stubblefield and Bryant Young. Because I don't we have the personnel to stop Lynch. We couldn't stop Emmitt Smith with a 3-4 defense,and your not gonna stop Lynch with a 3-4. Also the secondary is good hitting and tackling, but we need some ball hawks, right now, we don't have it. Yeah, Kap needs to improve,but the truth is we got no running yards. Coincidentally or not coincidentally, the Seahawks run a 4-3.
Originally posted by goldlame2013:
Here's a question. Would it be better of we old school, and went back to a 4-3 defense? Remember the old days when we two stud defensive tackles Dana Stubblefield and Bryant Young. Because I don't we have the personnel to stop Lynch. We couldn't stop Emmitt Smith with a 3-4 defense,and your not gonna stop Lynch with a 3-4. Also the secondary is good hitting and tackling, but we need some ball hawks, right now, we don't have it. Yeah, Kap needs to improve,but the truth is we got no running yards. Coincidentally or not coincidentally, the Seahawks run a 4-3.

The 49ers kinda do this already. Yes, they play a "3-4" but look at their DL. You have two guys that are DT's and one that plays DE. Aldon and Brooks are BIG outside linebackers; one of them was a DE in college.

If you want to beat the Seahawks, make half time adjustments. Pete Carroll teams (including his time with SC) have two half game plans. They don't call the many of the same plays or show the same looks in the second half. I remember at SC, if the Trojans were down by 7, tied, or ahead at halftime; you could bank on them winning the game. Because the halftime adjustments would correct or change enough to catch the opponent totally off guard.
Man we were killing Wilson for the majority of the game! Everytime I looked up Aikman and Buck were talking about all the hurries, pressures, and sacks we had on Wilson. And our oline did what they could in run blocking but Seattle was selling out for the run damn near every play. At the end of the day Kap made enough plays for us to win the game but we had to overcome four bs calls, and a 4th and 35 td... smh. We will be back next year.
i wont speak to the d-line, but in that stadium the o-line is the #1 thing that gets affected. on top of that the #1 benefit for seattle is the d-line getting off a tad bit quicker. it really makes a difference.
[ Edited by crabman82 on Jan 22, 2014 at 11:14 AM ]
Originally posted by ginseng1000:
yes, everyone keeps bashing kaepernick.

we couldn't stop the run in the 2nd half, that 40 yard TD run by Lynch really killed us.

That run has nothing to do with coaching. bad form on Reid, Brock let alone.
it's a damn shame

don't put the defensive line on this.

lynch broke 1 run. they stopped him for the most part the entire game. you take away that run he has about 54 yards on the day.

they put major pressure on wilson all day and all night
the tight ends were a complete non factor.
the front 7 did its job and then some. wilson wasn't comfortable in the pocket all day. 2 intentional grounding plays constantly throwing it away.

the problem was carlos rogers.
he gave up the td on 4th down. wilson knew who to target and he did.

offensively
the offensive line played like complete trash against the seattle seahawks
they didn't run block
and didn't pass block
no idea why they were even on the field they didn't do anything to help the team win.