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Out-Coached! = Why did Seattle dominate both our O-line and our D-line?

Originally posted by Buchy:
I can't get too down on the defensive line, I think our front 7 are excellent. The strategy for our seconday though is woeful as we provide too big a cushion in making sure we don't give up the big play, yet we are still susceptable to that big play because our corners are not really good enough to stick with a receiver. I'd rather we played like Seattle's seconday in the sense of jamming at the line and sticking with the receivers but we'd need to draft CB's that can do that.

Our Oline has taken a step back this season to be honest. Our run blocking in the second half of the season and against good defensive lines has been very poor, Gore isn't really dropping off he's just got no holes to go through and the good dlines are getting penetration through our Oline and killing the play behind the LOS. You can see that in the Seattle, Carolina and Arizona games.

The pass protection from Goodwin, Davis and Iupati has been awful though, lot of people want Kap to be a pocket passer, you need to provide a pocket from the Oline for that to happen. All 3 of these guys are getting beat by speed rushers far too easily, they are not quick enough on their feet or well balanced enough to keep up with the new breeds of DE/DT's coming through.

Staley is excellent and Boone is surprsiginly agile for his size, when he's played tackle for Staley he's had no problems shutting out good rushers. Now Goodwin is gone at the end of this season I think due to cap reasons and ultimately age. Iupati has been dealing with injuries so I am not going to be too hard on him, but I think we won't extend him this off season.

Now someone suggested that we should put Boone at Right tackle and make Davis the RG, and I think that might be a very good idea. I'd suggest in addition to that we look to bring Iupati's weight down to try and make him more mobile/nimble (I also think that weight is causing him more injuries and health problems) as I think the NFL is going through another change now where the Oline players are going to have to go from being big immovable lumps to a middle ground where they are more manueverable and able to keep up with the athletes now playing on the Dline.

We also seriously need to work on pass protection.

Our LB's are the best in the NFL. But the DL was pretty beaten up playing Dobbs, and Jerrod-Eddie, but they should have had them attacking the defense instead of playing 'prevent'.

I agree about the O-line, they were not good. They should probably flip-flop Boone and Davis and probably let Iupati walk, unless he will sign for good deal money. But I think they should play a zone-blocking scheme.
Originally posted by maxsmart:
Originally posted by Ronnie49Lott:
IMHO the offense and defense played it too conservative this time. When they had chances to do something significant they played it ultra safe.

Agreed, running against 8 in the box wasn't working, yet they almost never target their RB & TE with short ball-control passes, which Walsh always explained was designed to open up the running game and keep the LB's on their heels, ie. prevent the defense from attacking (like Seattle did) or else they get burned by short passes right past the LB's.

And the defesne also started playing almost a 'prevent' defense in the 3rd when they were up by 7!
That first down play selection of Halfback dive and off tackle plays were pissing me off.2nd and long every time. Gore had 14 rushing attempts IIRC. Defense was playing "prevent" according to Stubblefield. What kind of attitude is that for a playoff game?

Niners dictate or control the pace of the game against every other team except in Seattle.
Originally posted by biggiep:
Originally posted by maxsmart:
Agreed, running against 8 in the box wasn't working, yet they almost never target their RB & TE with short ball-control passes,

Yes this year there does seem to be a distinct lack of RB dumpoffs, and I know for a fact Alex Smith did those plenty of times under Harbaugh, something plenty of us used to mock. I'm more inclined to think the change isn't a result of coaching.

No, if you look at the stats the RB catches went down starting when Harbaugh got the job 3 years ago. Gore averaged >50 catches per year for 5 years from 2006-2010, then when Harbaugh started he has averaged 20 catches per year (17 in 2011 when Alex Smith started the entire year).
Yeah. A big hole in the offensive game plan is that we don't find more ways to get Frank the ball in the open field. He will not break it all the way, but he will make the first two tacklers miss for sure. = YAC.
Originally posted by maxsmart:
Originally posted by biggiep:
Originally posted by maxsmart:
Agreed, running against 8 in the box wasn't working, yet they almost never target their RB & TE with short ball-control passes,

Yes this year there does seem to be a distinct lack of RB dumpoffs, and I know for a fact Alex Smith did those plenty of times under Harbaugh, something plenty of us used to mock. I'm more inclined to think the change isn't a result of coaching.

No, if you look at the stats the RB catches went down starting when Harbaugh got the job 3 years ago. Gore averaged >50 catches per year for 5 years from 2006-2010, then when Harbaugh started he has averaged 20 catches per year (17 in 2011 when Alex Smith started the entire year).
Agreed. We new a real WC OC. I do believe we'd be unstoppable with one and the talent we have.
The explanation is plain and simple:

roids, PEDS, and the refs missing their calls.

No further discussion is needed.
Originally posted by maxsmart:
Agreed, running against 8 in the box wasn't working, yet they almost never target their RB & TE with short ball-control passes, which Walsh always explained was designed to open up the running game and keep the LB's on their heels, ie. prevent the defense from attacking (like Seattle did) or else they get burned by short passes right past the LB's.

And the defesne also started playing almost a 'prevent' defense in the 3rd when they were up by 7!

SOOOOO many f**king first downs wasted the exact same way........run the ball using a trap, Gore gets rocked at or behind the line of scrimmage......now its 2 and 10+ over and over and over again, meanwhile Seattle was forever winding up with 2nd and 6, 2nd and 5, 2nd and 4. The inability to move the ball on 1st down, the lack of imagination on 1st down playcalls killed this team. How many times did Roman need to see Gore get crushed on 1st down before he tried something else?
  • fryet
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 2,866
I totally disagree with this OP.

OL: They are playing a silent snap count, so it gives the defensive line an advantage. Also, I personally blame Frank Gore for the lack of production. He is too slow to get to the hole, and is no threat to bounce outside, so he is easy for defenses to stop.
DL: You did see all the pressure they were getting on Russell Wilson? I thought they played a fantastic game. They stopped Seattle's running except for that 1 drive. In the analysis thread, it was discussed that the reason why the corners play off on the receivers is to confuse the QB - they cant determine what type of defense they are facing before the snap. So it forces the QB to hold the ball longer, which gives the DL more time to sack the QB.
Other than the long run, we stopped the run fairly well. Give Seattle credit. They are one of the best teams in the league. They run block well but don't pass block all that well. Sounds familiar? Our offensive line struggled to open lanes for the same reason. They played a good defense who stacked up trying to stop the run. I was happy what they did with crowd noise. Did you notice which team had all the false starts. Yes, this loss hurts and its another missed opportunity but we played better than anyone else in that place outside of Zona in the last 4 years. We have nothing to be ashamed of.
Originally posted by BadgerHawk:
Other than the long run, we stopped the run fairly well. Give Seattle credit. They are one of the best teams in the league. They run block well but don't pass block all that well. Sounds familiar? Our offensive line struggled to open lanes for the same reason. They played a good defense who stacked up trying to stop the run. I was happy what they did with crowd noise. Did you notice which team had all the false starts. Yes, this loss hurts and its another missed opportunity but we played better than anyone else in that place outside of Zona in the last 4 years. We have nothing to be ashamed of.

No credit is given when cheating becomes an art form and the refs missing their calls on purpose.
Other than troy aikman and misinformed talking heads, whos labeling the niners as boasting the bet O-line group in the league? As for our D-line, our front seven may be the best overall in the fooball (thanks to four all pro linebackers), but our D-line isnt the best, and it seems many - if not all - football minds recognize that. With that said, judging our O-line and D-line based on a few cherry-picked games doesnt dignify your main argument - you know, that our coaches were "out-schemed." And something tells me that harbaugh and Co. know far more about the game then some anonymous poster on a fan website.

With respect to our offense, the west coast O walsh would run isnt run by a single team in the league. Certainly teams share many of the same principles of those offenses, but not that playbook. The league has changed dramatically since then, especially ours. Get over it. This isnt a finesse team, but a power one; a team built to win both at home on the road in any conditions. Thats the kind of football that wins today.

But just one last point on that subject: you cant just assume kaepernick can play the game like steve young and montana; assume davis can run routes like brent jones (davis is an awful route runner), etc. It doesnt work that way. For you to even suggest such a thing only magnifies your level of ignorance. Be better then that.
Originally posted by maxsmart:
We are supposed to have the 'best' O-line in the NFL, yet we couldn't run. We are supposed to have the best front 7 yet we couldn't stop Seattle's run. We have more talent as evidenced by more pro bowl picks, so that leaves two main possibilities:

#1. Out schemed / out-coached
#2. Our players are over-rated

I think our O-line and O-line are both a little bit over-rated.
However I think the main problem is coaching and scheme. We should go back more to the west-coast roots of short quick ball-control passes to the running backs and Tight ends, and also more 'zone-blocking' by the O-line (like Walsh and McKittrick). Zone blocking would allow Gore/Lattimore/Hunter to find and pick the hole, and they all have great vision so they would excel in that scheme.

Regarding ball-control passing:
Gore only had 16 catches = 1 per game! Kendall Hunter had 2 catches on the entire year! [Roger Craig averaged ~75 catches a year for 5 years in a row! Ricky Watters averaged 60 catches per year.]
Vernon Davis is all-pro talent, 1 or 2 most talented TE in NFL, yet only gets ~50 catches per year. We trade up for McDonald and he only gets 8 catches! Celek has only 2 catches! Might as well play Kilgore at TE. Plus we rarely throw deep to loosen up the defense, so they crowd the mid-range routes. Our offense sucks because of coaching and scheme more so than talent!

It really is an abolsutely pathetic display of offense IMHO with SOOOO many weapons and depth. No bones about it and I'm not even sure if we can spin it in ANY positive way now. The theme is that when you get to the playoffs, coaching is usually THE difference in games between two equally talented teams. That's not to dismiss the other issues as well (clearly). When we fail, it's usually a collective collapse.
Our defense gave up that TD on 4th and 7 because Aldon SMith jumped off side, quit on the play (as did other D-lineman) and apparently so did the CB/S giving the Seattle WR's a step. Wilson took advantage and just threw it to the endzone cause it was a free play. Smart move. I think this play decided the game as if stopped, we would have the ball up 3pts with Seattle somewhat deflated.

I also think our D-line played a great game and did not get outplayed. We had sacks, pressures, Wilson had no rushing yards etc. Offensively the O-line can only do so much when Seattle puts 8-9 in the box every play.
Originally posted by fryet:
I totally disagree with this OP.

OL: They are playing a silent snap count, so it gives the defensive line an advantage. Also, I personally blame Frank Gore for the lack of production. He is too slow to get to the hole, and is no threat to bounce outside, so he is easy for defenses to stop.
DL: You did see all the pressure they were getting on Russell Wilson? I thought they played a fantastic game. They stopped Seattle's running except for that 1 drive. In the analysis thread, it was discussed that the reason why the corners play off on the receivers is to confuse the QB - they cant determine what type of defense they are facing before the snap. So it forces the QB to hold the ball longer, which gives the DL more time to sack the QB.
Great post.

Like fryet said, you can't blame the offensive line for playing poorly -- that's part of playing in Seattle. With the silent count, the defensive line gets the same jump as our lineman do. Of course they're going to look worse.

Fryet, that's also an interesting perspective on Gore that I've never thought of before. You're right -- him not having the speed/quickness to get outside anymore is an issue. At first I was hesitant to blame him because there simply weren't any holes for him to run through, but sometimes it takes improvisation to make things happen. His vision and patience tandem is as good as anyone's, but he is sort of limited. That said, I think he will still be a valuable contributor next year.

Also, the defensive line did get penetration. Outside of his long run, Marshawn Lynch had 21 carries for 69 yards -- 3.29 YPC. I know you can't just remove that long run and pretend it didn't happen, but it's not like they consistently pounded it down our throats all night. They played really well, especially in the Red Zone.
You guys want a Super Bowl but we got like the 10th best QB in the league. Can't tell me we ain't got a Super caliber team elsewhere, we do. Seahawks stacked the box, dared Kaep to throw, he couldn't get it done. There's been almost 50 Super Bowls played and a running QB has won none of them, so you can keepall that running stuff. I'll take 300 yds. and 3 td's passing anyday. Just look at Montana's comments from about a week ago about Kaep, you think he just made that stuff up? Kaep has to stay in the pocket and make clutch throws under pressure, beating teams with his brain. I'd like to ask Pete Carroll about that last play, I bet he'll take that match-up and situation a 100 times out of a 100.