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replacing laMichael James (redo)

Originally posted by Psinex:
Originally posted by sfout:
Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
Originally posted by Psinex:
If we had kept Ted Ginn, we would've gotten more production out of our returns and been able to stretch the field. I think that hurt our special teams play. If I'm not mistaken, we didn't have a single kickoff or punt returned for a TD this year.

We didn't last year either. Ginn was rejuvenated in Carolina. He didn't look so good at the end of 2012. Let's no revise history.

for real. Need I remind anybody promoting Ginn that James' longest returns of kicks in 2012 was 30 yards longer(61 yards compared to 31 by Ginn) than Ginn's best with the same ST players. In 2013 James best PR was 40 compared to 41 by Ginn.

Ginn's best kick return of 2013 was 38 yards.....James' was 41. End of discussion.

I'd still take Ginn on the roster over Kyle Williams, A.J. Jenkins and Jon Baldwin, who were on it to start the season.

Is this hindsight talking or was that your stance last offseason/preseason?
Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
Originally posted by Psinex:
Originally posted by sfout:
Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
Originally posted by Psinex:
If we had kept Ted Ginn, we would've gotten more production out of our returns and been able to stretch the field. I think that hurt our special teams play. If I'm not mistaken, we didn't have a single kickoff or punt returned for a TD this year.

We didn't last year either. Ginn was rejuvenated in Carolina. He didn't look so good at the end of 2012. Let's no revise history.

for real. Need I remind anybody promoting Ginn that James' longest returns of kicks in 2012 was 30 yards longer(61 yards compared to 31 by Ginn) than Ginn's best with the same ST players. In 2013 James best PR was 40 compared to 41 by Ginn.

Ginn's best kick return of 2013 was 38 yards.....James' was 41. End of discussion.

I'd still take Ginn on the roster over Kyle Williams, A.J. Jenkins and Jon Baldwin, who were on it to start the season.

Is this hindsight talking or was that your stance last offseason/preseason?

I've always maintained that Ginn was our best option at returner. I remember very clearly when we desperately needed someone to stabilize the return game. The year before Ginn took over, we had a merry-go-round of Arnaz Battle, Delanie Walker and Allen Rossum. We all know what happened when Ginn went down in the playoffs. And then we let Ginn go, put Kyle Williams in and got little to nothing from our return game. He was playing scared, so he signaled for a fair catch on everything. With Kyle Williams in as our number two while Crabtree was out, we got nothing...probably lost our home field advantage between that stretch with Carolina and the Colts.

If we had kept Ginn, we would have had a much more dangerous returner and a deep threat throughout the season while Crabtree was injured. Ginn has shown that he has improved by leaps and bounds as a receiver while on the Panthers. Look at his stats: he had 36 catches, 556 yards and 5 TD's. He would've made a difference. This was always my stance. You can go through my post history and you'll see that's what I have always maintained. I started the "Ted Ginn Making Plays for Panthers" thread.
Trade him and keep Dixon
Originally posted by Psinex:
Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
Originally posted by Psinex:
Originally posted by sfout:
Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
Originally posted by Psinex:
If we had kept Ted Ginn, we would've gotten more production out of our returns and been able to stretch the field. I think that hurt our special teams play. If I'm not mistaken, we didn't have a single kickoff or punt returned for a TD this year.

We didn't last year either. Ginn was rejuvenated in Carolina. He didn't look so good at the end of 2012. Let's no revise history.

for real. Need I remind anybody promoting Ginn that James' longest returns of kicks in 2012 was 30 yards longer(61 yards compared to 31 by Ginn) than Ginn's best with the same ST players. In 2013 James best PR was 40 compared to 41 by Ginn.

Ginn's best kick return of 2013 was 38 yards.....James' was 41. End of discussion.

I'd still take Ginn on the roster over Kyle Williams, A.J. Jenkins and Jon Baldwin, who were on it to start the season.

Is this hindsight talking or was that your stance last offseason/preseason?

I've always maintained that Ginn was our best option at returner. I remember very clearly when we desperately needed someone to stabilize the return game. The year before Ginn took over, we had a merry-go-round of Arnaz Battle, Delanie Walker and Allen Rossum. We all know what happened when Ginn went down in the playoffs. And then we let Ginn go, put Kyle Williams in and got little to nothing from our return game. He was playing scared, so he signaled for a fair catch on everything. With Kyle Williams in as our number two while Crabtree was out, we got nothing...probably lost our home field advantage between that stretch with Carolina and the Colts.

If we had kept Ginn, we would have had a much more dangerous returner and a deep threat throughout the season while Crabtree was injured. Ginn has shown that he has improved by leaps and bounds as a receiver while on the Panthers. Look at his stats: he had 36 catches, 556 yards and 5 TD's. He would've made a difference. This was always my stance. You can go through my post history and you'll see that's what I have always maintained. I started the "Ted Ginn Making Plays for Panthers" thread.


Get off it, you see how this offense is, Ginn was not going to be given the opportunities to come close to those kind of stats on the 49ers. Furthermore, quit pretending like the 2012 Ginn didn't happen...he was nothing special. So he got re-born with Carolina...gosh, like it's never happened in this league where a FA signs on with someone else and gets a second wind.

LMJ ain't spectacular, but after a shaky start replacing Williams he was solid on both PR and KR...yeah, a muff today, but that doesn't negate the good he's done, not to mention that thankfully it wasn't a turnover. LMC could be a playmaker on offense, but back to my point re: Ginn, it takes a HaRo philosophy of not just cursory touches here-and-there but actually incorporating players not named Boldin-Crabtree-Davis into the offense.
It would be great to see if LMJ can play the slot.

If all he can contribute is punts & KO I'm sure we'll have to find someone else.
Great talent, but doesn't fit this offense, trade him to Philly.
I would like us to trade him.
Originally posted by DelCed2486:
Originally posted by Psinex:
Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
Originally posted by Psinex:
Originally posted by sfout:
Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
Originally posted by Psinex:
If we had kept Ted Ginn, we would've gotten more production out of our returns and been able to stretch the field. I think that hurt our special teams play. If I'm not mistaken, we didn't have a single kickoff or punt returned for a TD this year.

We didn't last year either. Ginn was rejuvenated in Carolina. He didn't look so good at the end of 2012. Let's no revise history.

for real. Need I remind anybody promoting Ginn that James' longest returns of kicks in 2012 was 30 yards longer(61 yards compared to 31 by Ginn) than Ginn's best with the same ST players. In 2013 James best PR was 40 compared to 41 by Ginn.

Ginn's best kick return of 2013 was 38 yards.....James' was 41. End of discussion.

I'd still take Ginn on the roster over Kyle Williams, A.J. Jenkins and Jon Baldwin, who were on it to start the season.

Is this hindsight talking or was that your stance last offseason/preseason?

I've always maintained that Ginn was our best option at returner. I remember very clearly when we desperately needed someone to stabilize the return game. The year before Ginn took over, we had a merry-go-round of Arnaz Battle, Delanie Walker and Allen Rossum. We all know what happened when Ginn went down in the playoffs. And then we let Ginn go, put Kyle Williams in and got little to nothing from our return game. He was playing scared, so he signaled for a fair catch on everything. With Kyle Williams in as our number two while Crabtree was out, we got nothing...probably lost our home field advantage between that stretch with Carolina and the Colts.

If we had kept Ginn, we would have had a much more dangerous returner and a deep threat throughout the season while Crabtree was injured. Ginn has shown that he has improved by leaps and bounds as a receiver while on the Panthers. Look at his stats: he had 36 catches, 556 yards and 5 TD's. He would've made a difference. This was always my stance. You can go through my post history and you'll see that's what I have always maintained. I started the "Ted Ginn Making Plays for Panthers" thread.


Get off it, you see how this offense is, Ginn was not going to be given the opportunities to come close to those kind of stats on the 49ers. Furthermore, quit pretending like the 2012 Ginn didn't happen...he was nothing special. So he got re-born with Carolina...gosh, like it's never happened in this league where a FA signs on with someone else and gets a second wind.

LMJ ain't spectacular, but after a shaky start replacing Williams he was solid on both PR and KR...yeah, a muff today, but that doesn't negate the good he's done, not to mention that thankfully it wasn't a turnover. LMC could be a playmaker on offense, but back to my point re: Ginn, it takes a HaRo philosophy of not just cursory touches here-and-there but actually incorporating players not named Boldin-Crabtree-Davis into the offense.

Every player has a down year. What kind of team cuts someone loose the first time that happens? If Devin Hester has a down year, do the Bears cut him? His down year consisted of two games where he muffed one punt and Kaepernick airmailed him a handoff that was doomed from the start. I'm not saying LMJ has been terrible, but he's not the returner that Ginn is. What bothers me is that everyone jumped ship and wanted Ginn gone after his first muffed punt in three years on the Niners. Fickle bunch who don't know what it was like before Ginn. We lost games because of our terrible returners.

Ginn was 11th in the NFL in punt-return average (11.2) in 2012 after ranking fourth (2011) and third (2010), respectively, in the category the previous two seasons. In the Super Bowl, Ginn's 32-yard, third-quarter punt return set up a 20-yard touchdown drive in the midst of San Francisco's second-half rally. Ted Ginn was ranked 16th in punt returns this year with no fumbles and 5 returns for more than 20 yards. LMJ was 25th with 2 fumbles and 2 returns for more than 20 yards. Both had 1 return for over 50 yards and no TD's. I'd still rather have Ginn's 4.28 40 speed. But we don't have him anymore. Just giving my 2 cents. We probably won't have another returner of Ginn's caliber for awhile.
Definitely need to bring competition to the returner positions. LMJ doesn't really bring a whole lot IMO.

Maybe some more reps at RB would help his confidence but I don't think he'll be a game breaker for us. Put him in the right offense maybe he can shine.

Our blocking on returns doesn't exactly stand out either. Hoping for improvement next year on returns. Maybe Patton should get some touches.
Originally posted by Psinex:
Originally posted by DelCed2486:
Originally posted by Psinex:
Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
Originally posted by Psinex:
Originally posted by sfout:
Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
Originally posted by Psinex:
If we had kept Ted Ginn, we would've gotten more production out of our returns and been able to stretch the field. I think that hurt our special teams play. If I'm not mistaken, we didn't have a single kickoff or punt returned for a TD this year.

We didn't last year either. Ginn was rejuvenated in Carolina. He didn't look so good at the end of 2012. Let's no revise history.

for real. Need I remind anybody promoting Ginn that James' longest returns of kicks in 2012 was 30 yards longer(61 yards compared to 31 by Ginn) than Ginn's best with the same ST players. In 2013 James best PR was 40 compared to 41 by Ginn.

Ginn's best kick return of 2013 was 38 yards.....James' was 41. End of discussion.

I'd still take Ginn on the roster over Kyle Williams, A.J. Jenkins and Jon Baldwin, who were on it to start the season.

Is this hindsight talking or was that your stance last offseason/preseason?

I've always maintained that Ginn was our best option at returner. I remember very clearly when we desperately needed someone to stabilize the return game. The year before Ginn took over, we had a merry-go-round of Arnaz Battle, Delanie Walker and Allen Rossum. We all know what happened when Ginn went down in the playoffs. And then we let Ginn go, put Kyle Williams in and got little to nothing from our return game. He was playing scared, so he signaled for a fair catch on everything. With Kyle Williams in as our number two while Crabtree was out, we got nothing...probably lost our home field advantage between that stretch with Carolina and the Colts.

If we had kept Ginn, we would have had a much more dangerous returner and a deep threat throughout the season while Crabtree was injured. Ginn has shown that he has improved by leaps and bounds as a receiver while on the Panthers. Look at his stats: he had 36 catches, 556 yards and 5 TD's. He would've made a difference. This was always my stance. You can go through my post history and you'll see that's what I have always maintained. I started the "Ted Ginn Making Plays for Panthers" thread.


Get off it, you see how this offense is, Ginn was not going to be given the opportunities to come close to those kind of stats on the 49ers. Furthermore, quit pretending like the 2012 Ginn didn't happen...he was nothing special. So he got re-born with Carolina...gosh, like it's never happened in this league where a FA signs on with someone else and gets a second wind.

LMJ ain't spectacular, but after a shaky start replacing Williams he was solid on both PR and KR...yeah, a muff today, but that doesn't negate the good he's done, not to mention that thankfully it wasn't a turnover. LMC could be a playmaker on offense, but back to my point re: Ginn, it takes a HaRo philosophy of not just cursory touches here-and-there but actually incorporating players not named Boldin-Crabtree-Davis into the offense.

Every player has a down year. What kind of team cuts someone loose the first time that happens? If Devin Hester has a down year, do the Bears cut him? His down year consisted of two games where he muffed one punt and Kaepernick airmailed him a handoff that was doomed from the start. I'm not saying LMJ has been terrible, but he's not the returner that Ginn is. What bothers me is that everyone jumped ship and wanted Ginn gone after his first muffed punt in three years on the Niners. Fickle bunch who don't know what it was like before Ginn. We lost games because of our terrible returners.

Ginn was 11th in the NFL in punt-return average (11.2) in 2012 after ranking fourth (2011) and third (2010), respectively, in the category the previous two seasons. In the Super Bowl, Ginn's 32-yard, third-quarter punt return set up a 20-yard touchdown drive in the midst of San Francisco's second-half rally. Ted Ginn was ranked 16th in punt returns this year with no fumbles and 5 returns for more than 20 yards. LMJ was 25th with 2 fumbles and 2 returns for more than 20 yards. Both had 1 return for over 50 yards and no TD's. I'd still rather have Ginn's 4.28 40 speed. But we don't have him anymore. Just giving my 2 cents. We probably won't have another returner of Ginn's caliber for awhile.


So you just posted a bunch of stats that showed Ginn was marginally "better" than LMJ...neither one is close to being Hester, so bringing him into the equation re: "down year" is vastly overstating the case.

These things don't happen in a vacuum...like it or not, LMJ was a 2nd round draft choice. I would imagine Ginn gets somewhere close to $1M, LMJ I think is under $400K...would it really have been worth an extra ~$500K to keep Ginn and either have a 2nd rounder inactive every game or even cut, particulalry in light of the fact LMJ has proven to be about the same level of "so-so" as Ginn?
he has no value in terms of what you'd get back. not sure a trade is the right thing considering that. hes basically stuck in a jam where they wont use him like he would like to be used, but when he does get used nothing spectacular happens to show he needs the rock more. the perfect storm for a player to basically not ever produce anything.
  • buck
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 11,395
Originally posted by 49ERFANb4Uwas:
I told you fools! !#$@@

THIS IS WHY I told you last month that I cringe when James returns punts!
All you guys called me a bandwagoner and idiot and the mods deleted my post. I demand a apology!

This post makes someone look like a fool.
Originally posted by sfout:
Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
Originally posted by Psinex:
If we had kept Ted Ginn, we would've gotten more production out of our returns and been able to stretch the field. I think that hurt our special teams play. If I'm not mistaken, we didn't have a single kickoff or punt returned for a TD this year.

We didn't last year either. Ginn was rejuvenated in Carolina. He didn't look so good at the end of 2012. Let's no revise history.

for real. Need I remind anybody promoting Ginn that James' longest returns of kicks in 2012 was 30 yards longer(61 yards compared to 31 by Ginn) than Ginn's best with the same ST players. In 2013 James best PR was 40 compared to 41 by Ginn.

Ginn's best kick return of 2013 was 38 yards.....James' was 41. End of discussion.

What were the averages?
That would support your argument much better than the "-ests", which could simply be anomolies.
Averages could present a better view as to which player performed well over the season.. not just on a return or two for the year.
  • sfout
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 6,308
Originally posted by OKC49erFan:
What were the averages?
That would support your argument much better than the "-ests", which could simply be anomolies.
Averages could present a better view as to which player performed well over the season.. not just on a return or two for the year.

Ted Ginn
2012 PR avg: 10.18
2012 KR avg: 23
2013 PR avg: 12.15
2013 KR avg: 23.8

LaMichael James
2012 PR avg: did not attempt
2012 KR avg: 29.78
2013 PR avg: 10.91
2013 KR avg: 26.75

KRs James has unquestionably outperformed Ginn and he is just 1.24 yards behind him in PR avg.

The only way we could argue keeping Ginn would be better is if he had statistical proof that he'd be a good #3 for our system. Unfortunately for the coaches he was behind Williams and Walker for that role, we lined Walker up at WR like he was a true #3 and then had him in as the #2 TE for his other snaps.
Ted Ginn has some actual returns for TDs, but you aren't getting much more out of him in terms of averages as a returner. Secondly, Ted Ginn would have NEVER been used in this offense as a receiver the way Carolina did. He wasn't used when he was here and we don't use the receivers that we have now behind Boldin and Crabtree. Lamichael James's perceived lack of value falls on this coaching staff. He proved last season he is a capable #2 running back, but we barely got him the ball as a runner this season, particularly when his speed could have been used. The reality is we have an all star staff on the defensive side of the ball but the offensive side is lacking. Some of it could be personnel (our center is not very good), but a lot of it boils down to play calling and how we use guys. I'd just like for the 49ers to make a point to let James touch the ball 5 times a game (whether they be runs or passes) and you will see him work a little magic.

With that said, I still would like to draft a receiver who can return kicks solely because if James were to get hurt, we should have other options or perhaps the rookie beats out James. Regardless, it is terrible that he has received so few opportunities when he has already demonstrated he can handle the load.