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What is Kaeps worth....?

What is Kaeps worth....?

Originally posted by buck:
The offense used by Harbaugh, at least in my opinion, is not the same as that used by Bill Walsh.

I do not really care. I do not think it makes any real difference.

Harbaugh and company must improve the offense, and the passing game in particular.

If the improvements are made, I do not care if the offense is WCO or not.

No, it doesn't matter except for personal preferences. Mine lean toward the WCO because I think it very smart and, if done well, successful. I would rather watch a WCO than the current one, probably because I don't see a fluid offense out there now...just a group of plays, one after another, with little continuity.
Originally posted by martysofresh:
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
Brees, Brady, Peyton have WON SUPER BOWLS. Of course they are evaluated in a different light. Kaep has proven he can't win the BIG GAME so far. What he does in the future who knows?

Manning won one superbowl. Manning now has the most playoff season losses in NFL history, so does that mean Manning cant win big games?

We can also throw in that Kaep has done more than all of the above except for Tom Brady in the first three years of his career. Drew Brees was so great in 2003 that the Chargers drafted Eli Manning (and then traded for Phillip Rivers).
Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
We can also throw in that Kaep has done more than all of the above except for Tom Brady in the first three years of his career. Drew Brees was so great in 2003 that the Chargers drafted Eli Manning (and then traded for Phillip Rivers).

Correction: Kaepernick's team has "done more"

Brees took over a 5-11 Chargers team
Peyton took over a 3-13 Colts team
Brady took over a 5-11 Patriots team

Kaepernick took over a 13-3 49ers team that won the division and played in Overtime of the NFC Title Game
Originally posted by SonocoNinerFan:
Piece of cake . . . just go draft another kid and have him take over the team at a cheaper rate . . . just snap your fingers and, voila it's done.

Isn't that exactly what Jim did with Kaepernick (2nd Round pick)
Originally posted by Touchdownboy1980:
Originally posted by SonocoNinerFan:
Piece of cake . . . just go draft another kid and have him take over the team at a cheaper rate . . . just snap your fingers and, voila it's done.

Isn't that exactly what Jim did with Kaepernick (2nd Round pick)

Clearly you haven't factored in development time and the high bust factor.

So....no.
Originally posted by Touchdownboy1980:
Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
We can also throw in that Kaep has done more than all of the above except for Tom Brady in the first three years of his career. Drew Brees was so great in 2003 that the Chargers drafted Eli Manning (and then traded for Phillip Rivers).

Correction: Kaepernick's team has "done more"

Brees took over a 5-11 Chargers team
Peyton took over a 3-13 Colts team
Brady took over a 5-11 Patriots team

Kaepernick took over a 13-3 49ers team that won the division and played in Overtime of the NFC Title Game

You mean the same team that was 6-10 just a season and a half before that?

What do you get out of putting your own team down so much? Why cant you just be excited that we have a future at QB? If you have a good QB, you ALWAYS have a chance.

There are so many NFL teams that are desperately trying to make your strategy work, but fail because they cant find that franchise QB. You cant just spread things around to the whole team, and leave yourself weak at the most important position, and expect to win. The QB touches the ball on every single offensive play. Hes the most important player on the team, both from a skill standpoint, and a leadership standpoint.

Youve gone WAY too far down this argument road. Its a dead end that makes no sense. You can keep arguing about it, but its not how the NFL works.

Like I said, its useless to discuss this, because the 49ers ARE going to pay Kap. Its going to be expensive, but theyve built the team smart, and can afford it. Just accept the fact that the most important position will be making the most money for us.

I promise you that we are 100% satisfied with the QB position right now, and for the future. York, Baalke, Harbaugh, etc, all KNOW they found a gem, and he will be a key factor into helping us win a title for the next 7+ years.
Kap should be among the highest paid running backs in the NFL. He's not much of a passer (one of the worst in the red zone ) but when he decides to run the ball he can make some exciting plays happen.
Originally posted by nflguy49:
Kap should be among the highest paid running backs in the NFL. He's not much of a passer (one of the worst in the red zone ) but when he decides to run the ball he can make some exciting plays happen.

A win is a win no matter how we get it. 23-9 including playoffs as a starter and counting!! I don't care if he runs or passes like any 49er fan so long as the 49ers win!
Originally posted by Pillbusta:
A win is a win no matter how we get it. 23-9 including playoffs as a starter and counting!! I don't care if he runs or passes like any 49er fan so long as the 49ers win!

Can't argue with success...unless you are prone to arguing.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Don't see the "WCO" being used by Harbaugh...yet alone "modernized." He runs a run first, power game which is about as far away from the WCO as you can get. I'm not sure why Harbaugh or others insist that his offense is a WCO off shoot, other than the obvious need to honor BW at Stanford and now the niners.

WCO--pass to set up the run.
JH--run to set up the pass.

WCO--short, high percentage passes.
JH--vertical passing to stretch the D to allow runs.

WCO--smaller, quick linemen to wear out the D.
JH--large linemen for run blocking.

WCO--FBs who catch many passes.
JH--RB who can block in the backfield.

WCO--WR picks with late releases.
JH--decoys with one designated receiver.

WCO--QBs survey the field from side to side with timing routes.
JH--QBs looking for one or two options.

Some of these may be a matter of QB development...or lack thereof...so far.

First of all, I never said WCO. Bill Walsh's offense was not the WCO, no matter how many times people said that it was. The WCO is Don Coryell's system, which is completely different than the Paul Brown/Bill Walsh system.

WCO--pass to set up the run.
JH--run to set up the pass.

Ya, kind of. They ran the ball A TON at all points of the game in Walsh's O. I think you're projecting something you think/feel rather than anything Walsh, nor Harbaugh, ever actually said.

WCO--short, high percentage passes.
JH--vertical passing to stretch the D to allow runs.

That is Kaep, not JH. Before Kaep that was not the case with Harbaugh's 49ers nor with Luck in Standford. I think you are projecting again (and not sure why because the idea that Jim Harbaugh goes out there with a game plan of vertical passing to stretch the D ion Sundays is laughable).

WCO--smaller, quick linemen to wear out the D.
JH--large linemen for run blocking.

You are projecting AGAIN. Bob McKittrick's philosophy was not to get small linemen and wear out defenses. Not at all. What they did was take linemen that were not highly coveted, either late in the draft or linemen than other teams cast off, OFTEN BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT OF PROTOTYPICAL SIZE, and make the most of their talents in his system. Walsh/McKittrick/Policy were not specifically looking for small offensive linemen, they just didn't draft them high and had to take what was left.

As for what Harbaugh wants in linemen he wasn't even here when some Staley and Boone were brought on board and how do you know it was his idea to draft Davis (who is not extra big for a Tackle, however he is quick) or Iupati (who is big but the way he pulls would have brought a tear to McKittrick's eye)? Of ya, that projecting thing...

WCO--FBs who catch many passes.
JH--RB who can block in the backfield.

There aren't really any Rathman's or Floyd's around these days, and we don't have a QB that every even looks for RBs or FBs when he drops back, but Harbaugh has always used RBs and FBs in the passing game when he could. If you are going to use the FB receiving part of the 49ers system under Walsh as an argument YOU ARE SAYING THAT NO ONE RUNS A BILL WALSH OFFENSE ANYMORE, because there isn't a team in the NFL that throws to their FB even half as much as Rathman was thrown too. And you better believe 49er running backs blocked for Walsh back then!


WCO--WR picks with late releases.
JH--decoys with one designated receiver.

That is dumbing it down quite a bit. And I mean when that happens it is because they are dumbing it down for the QB to limit mistakes. But its not like we don't have plenty of plays with routes like that. Speaking in absolutes totally sucks.

WCO--QBs survey the field from side to side with timing routes.
JH--QBs looking for one or two options.

That is 100% on the QB. Watching Smith and Luck under Harbaugh you saw lots of Bill Walsh on the field in this regard.


As I said, its not exactly like what Walsh ran in the 80's, but neither is any Bill Walsh system out there. They all have their own quirks, but they are still descendants of the Bill Walsh system.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Can't argue with success...unless you are prone to arguing.

You can argue with the moronic meme that the QB wins games alone.
Originally posted by Pillbusta:
A win is a win no matter how we get it. 23-9 including playoffs as a starter and counting!! I don't care if he runs or passes like any 49er fan so long as the 49ers win!

You realize QBs don't have W/L records, right? You know that of all the crazy statistics the NFL keeps on its players W/L records are not one of them, right?

If you didn't now you do. But do you know why?
Originally posted by Niners99:

What do you get out of putting your own team down so much? Why cant you just be excited that we have a future at QB? If you have a good QB, you ALWAYS have a chance.

How in the world does someone saying the 49ers are a very good team = "putting down your own team" to you?

Touchdownboy1980 was saying, with no possible room for confusion, that the 49ers were a good team. He was pointing out how good the team is and you accuse him of putting them down?

YOU ARE THE ONE PUTTING THE TEAM DOWN and it seems like you are doing it in your never ending quest to make everything about how amazing Kaepernick is.
Originally posted by Gavintech:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Don't see the "WCO" being used by Harbaugh...yet alone "modernized." He runs a run first, power game which is about as far away from the WCO as you can get. I'm not sure why Harbaugh or others insist that his offense is a WCO off shoot, other than the obvious need to honor BW at Stanford and now the niners.

WCO--pass to set up the run.
JH--run to set up the pass.

WCO--short, high percentage passes.
JH--vertical passing to stretch the D to allow runs.

WCO--smaller, quick linemen to wear out the D.
JH--large linemen for run blocking.

WCO--FBs who catch many passes.
JH--RB who can block in the backfield.

WCO--WR picks with late releases.
JH--decoys with one designated receiver.

WCO--QBs survey the field from side to side with timing routes.
JH--QBs looking for one or two options.

Some of these may be a matter of QB development...or lack thereof...so far.

First of all, I never said WCO. Bill Walsh's offense was not the WCO, no matter how many times people said that it was. The WCO is Don Coryell's system, which is completely different than the Paul Brown/Bill Walsh system.

You are wrong again. The Coryell offense was not dubbed the WCO but Air Coryell. The origin of WCO was a reference to QB driven offenses (pass happy) and Walsh's system became synonymous with the term. Coryell was more vertical than Walsh's system.
WCO--pass to set up the run.
JH--run to set up the pass.

Ya, kind of. They ran the ball A TON at all points of the game in Walsh's O. I think you're projecting something you think/feel rather than anything Walsh, nor Harbaugh, ever actually said.
They wore down the defense having them chase the ball all over the field and then ran once the DL was exhausted. If you go back and count the pass versus run first half to second half you will see the tendency.


WCO--short, high percentage passes.
JH--vertical passing to stretch the D to allow runs.

That is Kaep, not JH. Before Kaep that was not the case with Harbaugh's 49ers nor with Luck in Standford. I think you are projecting again (and not sure why because the idea that Jim Harbaugh goes out there with a game plan of vertical passing to stretch the D ion Sundays is laughable).

I'll let this one slide but the idea JH uses slants, screens and other short passes the way Walsh did is inaccurate.
WCO--smaller, quick linemen to wear out the D.
JH--large linemen for run blocking.

You are projecting AGAIN. Bob McKittrick's philosophy was not to get small linemen and wear out defenses. Not at all. What they did was take linemen that were not highly coveted, either late in the draft or linemen than other teams cast off, OFTEN BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT OF PROTOTYPICAL SIZE, and make the most of their talents in his system. Walsh/McKittrick/Policy were not specifically looking for small offensive linemen, they just didn't draft them high and had to take what was left.

As for what Harbaugh wants in linemen he wasn't even here when some Staley and Boone were brought on board and how do you know it was his idea to draft Davis (who is not extra big for a Tackle, however he is quick) or Iupati (who is big but the way he pulls would have brought a tear to McKittrick's eye)? Of ya, that projecting thing...
Two things--

One, you are correct that Walsh and Mckittrick looked for guys no one valued who had skills they would use--usually quickness over size. These linemen were usually smaller which is why they were able to pick them up for a song. The blocking schemes were creative and made up for size. They also had endurance that OLs like the hogs did not have. It was always the 9ers game in the second half because their line was still at full speed.


Two--you make my point...JH did not draft Staley, the only OLineman that might equate to the Walsh linemen. And how do you or I know anything? Is that really your argument?
WCO--FBs who catch many passes.
JH--RB who can block in the backfield.

There aren't really any Rathman's or Floyd's around these days, and we don't have a QB that every even looks for RBs or FBs when he drops back, but Harbaugh has always used RBs and FBs in the passing game when he could. If you are going to use the FB receiving part of the 49ers system under Walsh as an argument YOU ARE SAYING THAT NO ONE RUNS A BILL WALSH OFFENSE ANYMORE, because there isn't a team in the NFL that throws to their FB even half as much as Rathman was thrown too. And you better believe 49er running backs blocked for Walsh back then!
Gore has proven to be very adept at receiving but is the forgotten man in the pass game. Hunter and James had few targets. Miller had a few before being injured. Doesn't appear that the short pass to a back is much utilized by JH/Roman. The key to the WCO is the RB/FB catching a lot of passes to keep the D honest. It's easier for them to stay in and block as well because the D has to make sure they don't sneak out.


WCO--WR picks with late releases.
JH--decoys with one designated receiver.

That is dumbing it down quite a bit. And I mean when that happens it is because they are dumbing it down for the QB to limit mistakes. But its not like we don't have plenty of plays with routes like that. Speaking in absolutes totally sucks.
You may be correct with this, but I don't know whether it's the scheme or the QB. Smith had more experience and took sacks rather than make errors, Kaepernick tends to run. If you are familiar with my posting history you know how leery I am of absolutes.


WCO--QBs survey the field from side to side with timing routes.
JH--QBs looking for one or two options.

That is 100% on the QB. Watching Smith and Luck under Harbaugh you saw lots of Bill Walsh on the field in this regard.


As I said, its not exactly like what Walsh ran in the 80's, but neither is any Bill Walsh system out there. They all have their own quirks, but they are still descendants of the Bill Walsh system.

Bill Walsh taught the QBs to run through progressions. He did not dumb down the offense to protect his QBs but put pressure on them to learn and decrease mistakes as they went. That's why the first year and a half of his tenure with the niners many fans were calling him a failure. They didn't like Montana and didn't believe in Walsh's system. Many locals spoke derisively about the dink and dunk football being played. Reid's system is light years closer to Walsh's system than Harbaugh's. I've said before, and will stand by, JH's system is the Schembechler system not the WCO...power running and then pass to keep the defense honest...very macho versus cerebral.
[ Edited by dtg_9er on Feb 9, 2014 at 8:47 PM ]
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