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Analysis from the Arizona Cardinals game coaches film

Originally posted by Ninefan56:
Originally posted by thl408:
I would be talking out my butt if I tried to give you an honest answer as I don't know about the intricacies of Oline play when it comes to knee bend, shoulders being square and all that. I don't know how well Kilgore and Looney have developed. Center is a pretty cerebral position as it's the Center that usually calls out the blocking assignments at the line of scrimmage, It could be that Kilgore/Looney are physically superior to Goodwin, right now. However, Goodwin easily trumps them in the experience category and the coaching staff has shown a preference to playing its vets.

The 49ers could spend a 2nd/3rd rounder on a Center and I would still be uneasy about starting a rookie against the big boys of the NFL (DTs). Calling out blocking assignments versus NFL defensive lines that like to slant/shift/stunt is a tall order for any rookie. I hope Kilgore can answer the call when the Center spot is considered open competition this offseason.

Thanks Thl, I appreciate the honesty and the attempt to answer the question.

Kilgore got blown up on a few plays he was in on sunday as well. Overall, Goodwin does play pretty well, my biggest critique of Goodwin is that he tries to play with his hands a lot and doesn't engage strong in run blocking. He's got a lot to digest and handle from the mental aspect of the game, as well as performing strong. He's probably 2nd to Staley on the team in pressures given up(I can't speak to the exact numbers cause I haven't looked them up, but it's the impression I get from watching film). To me, Kilgore would have to show a lot in practice and OTA's as far as his ability to move very athletically and play with overwhelming power to unseat Goodwin.

For Iupati, I think he tries and use his brute strength too much and will get sloppy in his footwork sometimes, so he struggles against bigger players who can negate his strength.

To me, the O-line just has to start playing in sync. I think with the playoffs looming they will. They played pretty well against Tampa, St. Louis, Seatle, and Washington. This was more of an anomaly.

Think of our O-line as kind of the opposite end of the spectrum than the Patriots O-line. The patriots have the best pass protection in the league. Tom Brady regularly gets 4-5 seconds in the pocket; on the flipside, they have to have things go their way and teams have to being selling out for the pass for them to run the ball effectively.

We are probably the best run blocking O-line in the league. However, we struggle in pass pro when the opposing team knows it's a passing situation.
Originally posted by jonnydel:
Kilgore got blown up on a few plays he was in on sunday as well. Overall, Goodwin does play pretty well, my biggest critique of Goodwin is that he tries to play with his hands a lot and doesn't engage strong in run blocking. He's got a lot to digest and handle from the mental aspect of the game, as well as performing strong. He's probably 2nd to Staley on the team in pressures given up(I can't speak to the exact numbers cause I haven't looked them up, but it's the impression I get from watching film). To me, Kilgore would have to show a lot in practice and OTA's as far as his ability to move very athletically and play with overwhelming power to unseat Goodwin.

For Iupati, I think he tries and use his brute strength too much and will get sloppy in his footwork sometimes, so he struggles against bigger players who can negate his strength.

To me, the O-line just has to start playing in sync. I think with the playoffs looming they will. They played pretty well against Tampa, St. Louis, Seatle, and Washington. This was more of an anomaly.

Think of our O-line as kind of the opposite end of the spectrum than the Patriots O-line. The patriots have the best pass protection in the league. Tom Brady regularly gets 4-5 seconds in the pocket; on the flipside, they have to have things go their way and teams have to being selling out for the pass for them to run the ball effectively.

We are probably the best run blocking O-line in the league. However, we struggle in pass pro when the opposing team knows it's a passing situation.

but that's why i like the change in formation on obvious passing downs. instead of the past when we would usually run a possible 2 or 3 wr set
im noticing we go right to spread em out 4wr formations giving multiple options. the same formation we ran on the pass to patton to end the game.. and also the series before when patton wasn't able to make the tough catch on the 3rd down.

also because it spreads the defense out so that if all else fails kap has an alley to try and get yards. the more db's out there the better for us
Originally posted by jonesadrian:
but that's why i like the change in formation on obvious passing downs. instead of the past when we would usually run a possible 2 or 3 wr set
im noticing we go right to spread em out 4wr formations giving multiple options. the same formation we ran on the pass to patton to end the game.. and also the series before when patton wasn't able to make the tough catch on the 3rd down.

also because it spreads the defense out so that if all else fails kap has an alley to try and get yards. the more db's out there the better for us

I like this a lot too and it seems like CK is getting better in these passing plays; originally many seemed to go to Manningham (4 receiver sets) and they didn't connect for a variety of reasons. Last game CK went to Patton on two clutch downs (although the first was incomplete and other's seemed to be the better options), it's still a good sign he was looking to the one receiver you know is going to be 1on1 in a clutch situation.

If Roman does leave, what kind of OC would you ideally want in here to suit CK's skill set and the type of offensive weapons we have?
Did anyone ask about the lack of pass rush lately? Even Aldon doesn't seem as effective as usual. The only thing that I have noticed is that he seems to drop into coverage a lot more than I remember.
Originally posted by NCommand:
I like this a lot too and it seems like CK is getting better in these passing plays; originally many seemed to go to Manningham (4 receiver sets) and they didn't connect for a variety of reasons. Last game CK went to Patton on two clutch downs (although the first was incomplete and other's seemed to be the better options), it's still a good sign he was looking to the one receiver you know is going to be 1on1 in a clutch situation.

If Roman does leave, what kind of OC would you ideally want in here to suit CK's skill set and the type of offensive weapons we have?

the key for any qb wr relationship is trust.
a lot of people have undersold this aspect.
it doesn't matter if you're kap or tom brady, you have to be able to trust your guys to make plays.
and kap simply did not trust those guys that we had for the first 10 games. and rightfully so because people he might have trusted saw no time.
we can put it out there. he didn't trust kyle williams. and they insisted on giving him the bulk of the snaps. that killed any kind of progression in passing because he knew as well as we did that unless he's running wide open kyle will not catch the ball. so he's forcing it to vd and boldin and we say why? when we all know why...

rewind a little bit. patton in preseason kap demonstrated he trusted him out of the gate. for whatever reasons aside from injury patton couldn't get in over kyle.

fast forward to now. kap trusts everyone on the field now, so everyone can get a pass. osgood even got a catch. for kap now it's a matter of gaining a rhythm with them that i think he's close to having.

we see him go to boldin because he has 16 games in with him..20 if you count preseason.

his entire tenure with crab was only 10 coming into this season and is still only 14 games. no training camp to build or preseason. so its hard to pick up where you left off almost a year ago now.

but that is coming and i think he'll be aware of crab on the field as well as patton. the key is time or play call. if the call is to get it out quick he can do it and spread it. if he has progressions and time he will find the right guy he has already checked down a lot which a lot of us complained about

so i think we see unleashed kap, championship caliber qb kap 21td only 8 mistakes in a SLUMP year kap light up the nfl kap.


NOW

if roman leaves i don't want any changes to the playbook not a single one.
Ck's skillset is anything. i getting giddy with what im about to type.

Siragusa said it during the telecast, what i said after the atlanta game.
he was saying the 49ers are making it hard to game plan for them. you go over to the sideline and look at the pictures and understand what you need to do, then you come back out and you don't even see it again.

that is the offense i have been calling for all year.

Ck's skillset is whatever you need it to be. i think it was you i was discussing with in the roman thread about "limitations" with ck and me saying he can literally do anything you ask him to.

think about it. we ran a spread progression passing offense
ran a pistol offense
ran an option read offense
and a power run offense heavy play action pass offense...
not even during the course of the season.. im talking from series to series...
you simply cannot prepare for that.
and especially now with full arsenal of options. you can't lean on one thing. we're designed to be apex predators and pick on your weakness. if your 7 is stout
and db's are lacking
watch out.
if your 7 is good db's are good STILL WATCH OUT
see what i mean?

so if roman leaves do not change a thing not 1 thing not 1 single thing.
simply get someone from within who has a feel for calling plays.
roman i don't think has this down yet. that's his problem and why we have problems with him.
there shouldn't be a "when he's on" for an o.c.
maybe he's getting there NOW and i hope so.

but get someone to call the plays with rhythm who make sensible adjustments and don't let up until the game is over.

the playbook as presently constructed is perfect i am sure anything you want us to do its in there. just not being used
Originally posted by SFsFinest:
Did anyone ask about the lack of pass rush lately? Even Aldon doesn't seem as effective as usual. The only thing that I have noticed is that he seems to drop into coverage a lot more than I remember.

numbers
4v 5,6 sometimes 7 people.

when we bring 5 we get in.

6? forget about it

strictly numbers. they're not going to let aldon beat them. 42 sacks in your first 43 games will make you a target
Originally posted by jonesadrian:
Originally posted by SFsFinest:
Did anyone ask about the lack of pass rush lately? Even Aldon doesn't seem as effective as usual. The only thing that I have noticed is that he seems to drop into coverage a lot more than I remember.

numbers
4v 5,6 sometimes 7 people.

when we bring 5 we get in.

6? forget about it

strictly numbers. they're not going to let aldon beat them. 42 sacks in your first 43 games will make you a target

The more guys they need to protect..the less guys you have to defend
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
The more guys they need to protect..the less guys you have to defend

correct.
but like shown the pressure still gets there just a step or 2 late. and our pressure is respected even more than others and directly to one side imo.
the moment you don't respect it, offenses know what happen so they take their chances.

also we're not blitzing we're just playing assignment football. sometimes db's fall sometimes they make perfect throws and you tip your hat.

so the yards...im not worried about the yards.
the pressure will come and we always dial it up when we need it as well via blitz etc.

thats just not how we're built and honestly i don't want us to be built that way. i like the way we are. just have to be dialed in and focused.
Originally posted by jonesadrian:
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
The more guys they need to protect..the less guys you have to defend

correct.
but like shown the pressure still gets there just a step or 2 late. and our pressure is respected even more than others and directly to one side imo.
the moment you don't respect it, offenses know what happen so they take their chances.

also we're not blitzing we're just playing assignment football. sometimes db's fall sometimes they make perfect throws and you tip your hat.

so the yards...im not worried about the yards.
the pressure will come and we always dial it up when we need it as well via blitz etc.

thats just not how we're built and honestly i don't want us to be built that way. i like the way we are. just have to be dialed in and focused.

Would love to have dial and carradine be one of those guys that can beat a double team next year
[ Edited by 49AllTheTime on Jan 1, 2014 at 8:47 PM ]
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Would love to have dial and carradine be one of those guys that can beat a double team next year

well its tricky.
you have to keep in mind that brooks and aldon aren't defensive ends they're outside linebackers. so their responsibilities change from snap to snap.
they're in coverage at times
they have edge setting responsibilities
they have flat responsibilities
so it's not as simple as they get to pin their ears back every snap and just aren't getting there. they get used for much more

add to that, dorsey is there to hold the middle. no running.
and justin and mac are there to keep pat and bowman clean...
[ Edited by jonesadrian on Jan 1, 2014 at 8:57 PM ]
  • GORO
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Originally posted by jonnydel:
Kilgore got blown up on a few plays he was in on sunday as well. Overall, Goodwin does play pretty well, my biggest critique of Goodwin is that he tries to play with his hands a lot and doesn't engage strong in run blocking. He's got a lot to digest and handle from the mental aspect of the game, as well as performing strong. He's probably 2nd to Staley on the team in pressures given up(I can't speak to the exact numbers cause I haven't looked them up, but it's the impression I get from watching film). To me, Kilgore would have to show a lot in practice and OTA's as far as his ability to move very athletically and play with overwhelming power to unseat Goodwin.

For Iupati, I think he tries and use his brute strength too much and will get sloppy in his footwork sometimes, so he struggles against bigger players who can negate his strength.

To me, the O-line just has to start playing in sync. I think with the playoffs looming they will. They played pretty well against Tampa, St. Louis, Seatle, and Washington. This was more of an anomaly.

Think of our O-line as kind of the opposite end of the spectrum than the Patriots O-line. The patriots have the best pass protection in the league. Tom Brady regularly gets 4-5 seconds in the pocket; on the flipside, they have to have things go their way and teams have to being selling out for the pass for them to run the ball effectively.

We are probably the best run blocking O-line in the league. However, we struggle in pass pro when the opposing team knows it's a passing situation.
Staley allowed 4 sacks, 14 hurries. Grade: overall 27.7, Pass block: 15.0, run block: 8.5
Davis A 5 sacks, 24 hurries. 9.4 8.8 -0.4
Goodwin 4 sacks, 14 hurries 5.8 -1.3 6.9
Boone 2 sacks, 22 hurries -1.9 -4.0 3.3
Iupati 3 sacks, 19 hurries -0.4 -8.4 7.2

Numbers down from last year. Grades from Pro Football Focus
[ Edited by GORO on Jan 1, 2014 at 9:17 PM ]
  • thl408
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Originally posted by SFsFinest:
Did anyone ask about the lack of pass rush lately? Even Aldon doesn't seem as effective as usual. The only thing that I have noticed is that he seems to drop into coverage a lot more than I remember.

ARI was smart with how they attacked in the passing game with shots downfield. Most of their big plays came on play action on either 1st or 2nd down. That forces the front 7 to honor the run, giving the WRs time to run the longer developing routes. They also placed a TE on Aldon's side to help the LT. I'll try to post some screenshots of these big plays by ARI.
  • thl408
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Originally posted by GORO:
Staley allowed 4 sacks, 14 hurries. Grade: overall 27.7, Pass block: 15.0, run block: 8.5
Davis A 5 sacks, 24 hurries. 9.4 8.8 -0.4
Goodwin 4 sacks, 14 hurries 5.8 -1.3 6.9
Boone 2 sacks, 22 hurries -1.9 -4.0 3.3
Iupati 3 sacks, 19 hurries -0.4 -8.4 7.2

Numbers down from last year. Grades from Pro Football Focus

Surprised at how high Goodwin is graded (+5.8 overall). I must only be seeing his bad plays. I thought it would rank Staley, ADavis, Boone, Goodwin, Iupati. With Goodwin and Iupati in the negative.
[ Edited by thl408 on Jan 1, 2014 at 9:24 PM ]
Originally posted by thl408:
Surprised at how high Goodwin is graded (+5.8 overall). I must only be seeing his bad plays. I thought it would rank Staley, ADavis, Boone, Goodwin, Iupati. With Goodwin and Iupati in the negative.

goodwin is only bad when we face elite dominant dt's

there aren't that many. regular week in and week out he's fine. the only team in the nfc that has that shoot...probably the nfl playoffs at this point is carolina.
[ Edited by jonesadrian on Jan 1, 2014 at 9:48 PM ]
  • thl408
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There has been discussion with the pass rush and the pass defense in general. Very understandable that those concerns were louder after the ARI game where Palmer threw for 400+ yards. ARI got big passing gains by using a common theme, play action on 1st or 2nd down. Neutralizing the pass rush with the play action allowed the longer routes to develop and Palmer made some good throws when he was given time. To help out the LT with pass protection, Aldon was often faced with a TE lined up on his side of the formation.

ARI's first two drives were a 3&Out then Bowman's INT. On their third drive of the game, their offense finally made some noise, but it ended with a missed FG. On the second play of this drive, Mendenhall ripped off a 28 yard gain right up the gut of the 49er defense. That run set the stage for the rest of the game. (I forgot to list the time on the clock, but the plays are in chronological order).

1 - Later on that drive, the first big pass play of the day was made by ARI. 2nd down, play action, TE on Aldon's side.

The play: 18 yards to Dray


2 - 1st down, play action, TE on Lemon's side. 49 yard gain to Fitz.


The play: I had to break the GIF up to meet size requirements. Focusing on the play action and the pass rush. Palmer gets hit by Lemon right as he releases.


Post-corner double move. Solid route, but excellent throw. This play was replayed a few times on the telecast. Biggest pass play of the day for ARI.


3 - 2nd down, play action, TE to Aldon's side.


The play:44 yards to Floyd


4 - 1st down, no play action, but one of the route runners help out with by impeding Aldon.


The play: 24 yards to Fitz


5 - No TE on Aldon's side this time, but ARI will pull the RG over to Aldon's side to sell the play action.


The play: That RG along with the RB will look to block Aldon. Only when the RB knows that the RG has successfully pulled will he release on a route. 30 yard gain to Housler.
[ Edited by thl408 on Jan 1, 2014 at 11:02 PM ]