There are 83 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

Analysis from the Arizona Cardinals game coaches film

Originally posted by Adusoron:
Jonnydel, thank you for this informative post. I enjoy reading your 49er all-22 analysis along with the other film study contributing members. (The first postgame analysis thread I discovered was the Tampa Bay game and I've been enjoying each subsequent thread.) I did want to ask you a complicated question. I listen to Greg Cosell of NFL films a lot on KNBR and I respect his knowledge very much. Over this entire season, I noticed that while he has consistently praised Colin as a quarterback prospect and thinks he'll be a high level QB, in nearly every radio interview after every game, he has implied and outright warned that Colin has made very little progress as a progression reader and passer. He says Colin is capable of making dynamic throws or runs at individual points in the game but has not mastered the subtle nuances of using the pocket and reading the field. In one interview, he agreed with the famous Trent Dilfer "remedial passer after first read is covered."

I have posted an example podcast from KNBR to illustrate my point (12-31-13 interview with Brian Murphy).
http://www.stationcaster.com/player_skinned.php?s=851&c=4801&f=2259653

I get a different feel from your analysis and I wanted to know your analysis of Cosell and Dilfer's analysis of Colin's present capabilities as a progression reader and Colin's progress in the nuances of being a high level pocket QB over the course of the 2013 season. If you agree with them, why? If you disagree with them, what are you seeing differently that they're not seeing?

To my eye, Colin appears to make reads, but it is not always consistent and he sometimes will drop his eyes to the pass rush quicker instead of shuffling, resetting, and trying to find a different read. However, it does not seem to be as bad as Cosell and Dilfer make it sound and it appears to me that Colin has improved in pocket usage, progression readings, and pass vs. scramble selection over the 6 game winning streak.

Thanks, and Happy New Year!

Well, I think he's made more progress over the course of this season than I've seen from him over all last offseason. If you look at the first 6-7 games I think he made more progress as far as anticipation in his throws. In the next 4-5 games he made muh more progress as far as progression reads. I think the last 4 games - which I've done more analysis from he's starting to put it all together but he's still inconsistent about it.
Originally posted by jonnydel:
yeah, you're definitely not wrong on giving up a lot of pressure up the middle. Where we really struggle in pass pro is against the big, aggressive defensive tackles. Although, it wasn't all on Iupati. When Iupati gives up pressures it's more to a lapse in technique than his body size. Here's a few of the pressures we gave up - these are just some examples we had quite a few in the game. Most were mental errors or technique errors.


49ers definitely need a new center. I've seen Goodwin struggle in both pass and run blocking. Iupati has been up and down and I think he's been dealing with a nagging shoulder injury. Boone has been solid, some poor games, some very good games, he's done fine. I would like to see improved play from center for the 49ers, whether it be Kilgore, a free agent or a rookie in general.
[ Edited by Phoenix49ers on Jan 1, 2014 at 11:04 AM ]
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Originally posted by jonnydel:
yeah, you're definitely not wrong on giving up a lot of pressure up the middle. Where we really struggle in pass pro is against the big, aggressive defensive tackles. Although, it wasn't all on Iupati. When Iupati gives up pressures it's more to a lapse in technique than his body size. Here's a few of the pressures we gave up - these are just some examples we had quite a few in the game. Most were mental errors or technique errors.


49ers definitely need a new center. I've seen Goodwin struggle in both pass and run blocking. Iupati has been up and down and I think he's been dealing with a nagging shoulder injury. Boone has been solid, some poor games, some very good games, he's done fine. I would like to see improved play from center for the 49ers, whether it be Kilgore, a free agent or a rookie in general.
Good question Pheonix. Johnny can you give us your assessment of the quality of our oline? On one hand it is praised for being good and then on the other hand is frowned upon for a lot of lapses especially in pass protection? In your assessment can you give us any thoughts on Looney and Kilgore as to their potential as replacements or do we have to go find us anothe Center, OG, or OT?
I've been saying it since last year. Goodwin sucks. And him and Iupati seem to always get mixed up on a gap blitzes. I think it's one reaosn why we see Roman trying more runs to the outside. Davis, Staley, and Boone have been great this year. I think the main 2 issues have been Goodiwn and Iupati. I think Iupati is overrated. And father time has caught up with Goodwin. Seems like when they play vs speed edge rushers the o line just gets whooped. They get beat to the edges and the opposing player just shuts everything down. Then you add that in with Goodwin getting beat up the middle and it leaves no running room. Iupati seems to do best when pulling. Let's not also forget that the niners have played some good defensive talent. So at times they are simply getting outplayed vs just playing poorly. 6 games this year were vs top 5 front 7's in the league. That's not even including having to deal with Mathis, Matthews jr, Orakpo and JJ Watt.
Originally posted by lamontb:
I've been saying it since last year. Goodwin sucks. And him and Iupati seem to always get mixed up on a gap blitzes. I think it's one reaosn why we see Roman trying more runs to the outside. Davis, Staley, and Boone have been great this year. I think the main 2 issues have been Goodiwn and Iupati. I think Iupati is overrated. And father time has caught up with Goodwin. Seems like when they play vs speed edge rushers the o line just gets whooped. They get beat to the edges and the opposing player just shuts everything down. Then you add that in with Goodwin getting beat up the middle and it leaves no running room. Iupati seems to do best when pulling. Let's not also forget that the niners have played some good defensive talent. So at times they are simply getting outplayed vs just playing poorly. 6 games this year were vs top 5 front 7's in the league. That's not even including having to deal with Mathis, Matthews jr, Orakpo and JJ Watt.

I kinda agree in that I wouldn't mind seeing Iupati leave if it meant we can resign Crabtree
Originally posted by thl408:
The General had a nice coming out party showing hands, tenacity to fight for the ball, and on this play, selfless hustle.

Below:
49ers will use the mesh/rub concept to Kap's left.
ARI comes with a 'casino blitz', as they bring the house and play cover 0. It's man on man straight up across the board as ARI rushes 7. In theory, the mesh concept (man coverage buster) being run by Crabs/QP will work to get someone open.



Below: QP will be wide open because Crabs has successfully executed the pick, but Kap has no time to make a second read. He must go with his pre-snap decision. Shown below is Kap already in the throwing motion.


The play: Kap leads Boldin perfectly with the throw. One missed tackle and it's off to the races. Moore tripped up his man to help spring Boldin. Watch QP as he doesn't throw his arms up (had to jab at Crabs), but instead runs across the field to block a LB, taking a great angle to the block. ARI does not use this blitz again in this game.

Besides the Staley catch, this was probably my favorite play of the game because of that awesome block by Patton
Originally posted by jonnydel:
yeah, you're definitely not wrong on giving up a lot of pressure up the middle. Where we really struggle in pass pro is against the big, aggressive defensive tackles. Although, it wasn't all on Iupati. When Iupati gives up pressures it's more to a lapse in technique than his body size.

Here's a few of the pressures we gave up - these are just some examples we had quite a few in the game. Most were mental errors or technique errors.




Here we have Snyder in as a TE, we're going to max protect with the TE pass blocking. Arizona had shown a lot of 5-6 man pressures in the first drive of the game, so, we bring in Snyder to help protect - he's probably a better matchup on the edge in pass blocking than VD or VM



Notice Staley's good technique on the right. He keeps a good knee bend "squatting" into his set, he also keeps his shoulders square towards the opponent. On the other side, Snyder needs to have more knee bend and he doesn't keep his shoulders square.



Because of the poor technique he gets beat by a simple hand swat and speed rush. Staley didn't....



That's the shot just as CK threw the ball, I didn't go any further because it'll make you cringe seeing your QB get rocked like that. Snyder gave up that pressure/hit



Here Arizona has their DT lined up on Iupati's outside shade(they do this on almost every play. The lapse here is that Iupati thinks Gore is going to give help to his outside shoulder, so his first step is wrong.



Instead of stepping out like Boone did, he steps back with his outside foot, he's immediately given up leverage, space and an angle against the defender. He should know Gore is going to give help to his right so he can take an outward step.



You see Gore is stepping up into the inside hole to help but Iupati's already beat to the outside, CK hasn't even hit his last drop step yet.



Gore tries to help but it's too late. This wasn't as much Iupati not have the right body type, he's athletic enough to do these things, he just makes a mental error there I think.



Here Arizona shows a cover 0 look. They bring 7 guys up to the LOS to show pressure.



They end up coming with only 4 rushers on this play as they drop 3 of the guys who showed. This means the line has to rapidly adjust to what it see's and shift to the right where Ari is trying to overload.



You see how Iupati has to make it over to the backside DT to make the shift work and for us to be able to block everyone. The unfortunate thing is the all out blitz looked forced us to keep VD in pass pro, so we only have 3 receivers against 7 defenders out in the pattern.



Iupati does a nice job of sliding over, but Boone, like Iupati on the play before, takes a false step, instead of stepping up and out with his outside leg he steps back, giving up leverage.



You see how the defender has won, this is just as CK was setting up on his back foot. Because of the coverage on the backend on our 3 receivers, CK has to try and escape.



Ck does a good job of escaping and makes a 4 yard gain out of the play.

These kind of things happened throughout the game. It wasn't any 1 O-lineman. They all gave up something like this at some point. Arizona and Carolina have the fiercest fronts we've seen, against guys like that you have to play with perfect technique because these guys are so big and strong if you're off on your technique you're not going to be able to muscle them around regardless, one bad step and you're beat - as you've just seen.

Really enjoy these Oline breakdown posts. Teams with good DTs are going to continue to give the 49ers problems as long as Goodwin is the center and Iupati continues to under perform in pass pro, whether it be due to mental lapses or inability. I've gone as far as saying a better Center will impact the offense more than a speedy WR threat (Kap thread). I can live with Iupati's occasional brainfarts in pass protection since he can be a beast in run blocking, but Goodwin's consistent subpar performances puts pressure right in Kap's face and hurts the runs up the middle. I know you didn't highlight Goodwin's bad plays, but I do remember one play where it seemed like he just gave up on the play, and when Kap had to scramble from the pocket, he threw up his arms as if to say "what happened?". The only DTs that I can see giving the 49ers interior this much trouble in the NFC playoffs is CAR. I feel SEA brings more pressure from the edges than up the middle.
Jonnydel. One request. Can you put the game time in your breakdown so I can take a look at the play as well? Something like the quarter in which the play took place is good. Thanks.
  • Antix
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 5,093
Its frustrating and good to see so many open receivers but breakdowns in blocking causing us to miss big opportunities. I'm hoping we fire on all cylinders come Sunday.
thl408 - Do we have sufficient players on our team, as it now is, to replace Goodwin and Iupati? Is Kilgore a realistic center? Is Looney capabable of improving on Iupati's position?
Originally posted by thl408:
Really enjoy these Oline breakdown posts. Teams with good DTs are going to continue to give the 49ers problems as long as Goodwin is the center and Iupati continues to under perform in pass pro, whether it be due to mental lapses or inability. I've gone as far as saying a better Center will impact the offense more than a speedy WR threat (Kap thread). I can live with Iupati's occasional brainfarts in pass protection since he can be a beast in run blocking, but Goodwin's consistent subpar performances puts pressure right in Kap's face and hurts the runs up the middle. I know you didn't highlight Goodwin's bad plays, but I do remember one play where it seemed like he just gave up on the play, and when Kap had to scramble from the pocket, he threw up his arms as if to say "what happened?". The only DTs that I can see giving the 49ers interior this much trouble in the NFC playoffs is CAR. I feel SEA brings more pressure from the edges than up the middle.


Just quoting your post thl408 as thread gets unwieldy with multiple quotes of the pics, but you're right and thanks again to Jonny for the review. I agree with you, I think we'll draft a high round WR and not go for 2 or 3. I think Patton will be good for us, but we need to address the Oline for pass protection and if Kilgore isn't up to replacing Goodwin then we need a top prospect who can.

This is going to be very important as thanks to the hot mess the Skins are, and the stupidity of the RGknee trade, we're going to see the Rams pick up Clowney and a good Oline is going to be vital for the division.

My main worry in the play-offs is getting Carolina again, I think we can handle the Seattle front 4 but that Carolina dline made a mess of our Oline at the stick.
Originally posted by Ninefan56:
thl408 - Do we have sufficient players on our team, as it now is, to replace Goodwin and Iupati? Is Kilgore a realistic center? Is Looney capabable of improving on Iupati's position?

I would be talking out my butt if I tried to give you an honest answer as I don't know about the intricacies of Oline play when it comes to knee bend, shoulders being square and all that. I don't know how well Kilgore and Looney have developed. Center is a pretty cerebral position as it's the Center that usually calls out the blocking assignments at the line of scrimmage, It could be that Kilgore/Looney are physically superior to Goodwin, right now. However, Goodwin easily trumps them in the experience category and the coaching staff has shown a preference to playing its vets.

The 49ers could spend a 2nd/3rd rounder on a Center and I would still be uneasy about starting a rookie against the big boys of the NFL (DTs). Calling out blocking assignments versus NFL defensive lines that like to slant/shift/stunt is a tall order for any rookie. I hope Kilgore can answer the call when the Center spot is considered open competition this offseason.
I chalk the subpar effort by the o-line and d-line up to guys wanting to stay healthy for the playoff run. At any rate, we'll see on Sunday.
Originally posted by thl408:
I would be talking out my butt if I tried to give you an honest answer as I don't know about the intricacies of Oline play when it comes to knee bend, shoulders being square and all that. I don't know how well Kilgore and Looney have developed. Center is a pretty cerebral position as it's the Center that usually calls out the blocking assignments at the line of scrimmage, It could be that Kilgore/Looney are physically superior to Goodwin, right now. However, Goodwin easily trumps them in the experience category and the coaching staff has shown a preference to playing its vets.

The 49ers could spend a 2nd/3rd rounder on a Center and I would still be uneasy about starting a rookie against the big boys of the NFL (DTs). Calling out blocking assignments versus NFL defensive lines that like to slant/shift/stunt is a tall order for any rookie. I hope Kilgore can answer the call when the Center spot is considered open competition this offseason.

Thanks Thl, I appreciate the honesty and the attempt to answer the question.
Originally posted by Buchy:
Originally posted by thl408:
Really enjoy these Oline breakdown posts. Teams with good DTs are going to continue to give the 49ers problems as long as Goodwin is the center and Iupati continues to under perform in pass pro, whether it be due to mental lapses or inability. I've gone as far as saying a better Center will impact the offense more than a speedy WR threat (Kap thread). I can live with Iupati's occasional brainfarts in pass protection since he can be a beast in run blocking, but Goodwin's consistent subpar performances puts pressure right in Kap's face and hurts the runs up the middle. I know you didn't highlight Goodwin's bad plays, but I do remember one play where it seemed like he just gave up on the play, and when Kap had to scramble from the pocket, he threw up his arms as if to say "what happened?". The only DTs that I can see giving the 49ers interior this much trouble in the NFC playoffs is CAR. I feel SEA brings more pressure from the edges than up the middle.


Just quoting your post thl408 as thread gets unwieldy with multiple quotes of the pics, but you're right and thanks again to Jonny for the review. I agree with you, I think we'll draft a high round WR and not go for 2 or 3. I think Patton will be good for us, but we need to address the Oline for pass protection and if Kilgore isn't up to replacing Goodwin then we need a top prospect who can.

This is going to be very important as thanks to the hot mess the Skins are, and the stupidity of the RGknee trade, we're going to see the Rams pick up Clowney and a good Oline is going to be vital for the division.

My main worry in the play-offs is getting Carolina again, I think we can handle the Seattle front 4 but that Carolina dline made a mess of our Oline at the stick.

Good point about the NFC West and how every team has studs along their Dline. If Kap's arm is going to be the featured weapon of this offense, then it makes a lot of sense to protect him in the pocket and not feel forced into rolling him out due to inadequate protection on the Oline's interior. With Crabs and Patton on board for 2014, and hopefully Boldin, it may not make much sense to draft 2 WRs with a high pick (1st-3rd round). Center, WR, SS are the top needs on my list in order of importance, though not necessarily in that draft order as I am not so sure about drafting a Center in the 1st round.