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Coaching Staff Changes Watch

Coaching Staff Changes Watch

Originally posted by crabman82:
mangini as the qb coach?.....was garo yepremium not available?

Jerk. I spat out my coffee after reading this. Now my stomach hurts from laughing.
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by sfout:
Originally posted by Jcool:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Sounds like inside the bubble group-think.

I'm just going to say this .....

Harbaugh has the potential to be a great coach and it would seem he has the potential to be closed minded that he can't truly evaluate the problem.

Harbaugh is a great coach and what exactly is the problem? Three straight NFC title games, a Superbowl appearance and has yet to win less then 11 games.

dude talent automatically won about 2/3s of our games, we were already a perennial 6-8 win team with Nolan and Singletary because of how stacked the D was. Harbaugh's coaching style and innovation approach did put us over the top but now all that motion, jumbo, and things that freaked teams out in 2011 and even part of 2012 is just another play to any of the top D's in the league, even some of the worse ones.

If we don't come into 2014 with a new gimmick, yes I used gimmick, whether it is going back to a 75%++ pro style offense, or going full retard with the spread like the Saints it'll just be another year of our talent crushing the will out of the team despite the fact that they know what play were trying to run. Then every once in awhile we'll get crushed because we've gotten too cute against D that knows all of our tricks.

I wrote a quality post about how Groupthink is likely the issue within Harbaugh's offense some months ago, probably lost to the abyss by now but heres how it is.....

Harbaugh doesn't need to prove he's a great coach, he's done things no other coach has done, he's simply incredible but what he does need to prove is that he can make the tough decisions when they need to be made. Have the humility to consider an offensive revamp, whether it is schematic or coaches, remember to scheme for teams weaknesses not just our strengths -- we too often just impose our will and it is what leads to our ground out, oh so close for comfort wins, when if we had just played to exploit a team we'd probably annihilate them.

I totally agree with this post .....

It's pretty clear that Nolan and Scott McCloughan (Scout-in-Chief), were a great GM/Scout pair. These two were NOT a coach/GM pair. They're good talent evaluators - and it helps to pick at the upper end of the draft each year with an under performing squad. Nolan was a freshman coach who never was a HC at any level and then was replaced by ANOTHER freshman coach who was never a HC at any level. So OF COURSE you're going to have an under performing team, but what you did have was a pretty good scouting department and some good folks (like Tom Gamble) who were involved with personnel. Schemes? Game-day coaching? Position coaches? Terrible. Nolan and then Singletary had no clue on who to bring in and all were either not qualified to run a pro-style offense (Hostler), was only a temp looking for another job (Turner) or just wasn't right for the personnel for on the team (Martz).

In comes Harbaugh and my expectations were that in the first and second year we would see the first iteration of a developing offense. It would reintroduce common sense and schemes would challenge opponent match-ups game by game. As the NFL chess match evolved, as defensive and offensive coordinators adjusted, Harbaugh would adjust also being a former NFL QB and a disciple of the WCO.

I've seen this on defense but it simply isn't happening on offense. And is it better than the extremely low bar set with Nolan and Singletary? Of course. But again that bar was very low. As the NFL adjusts, now we'll see if he can really coach 'em up and making things happen - as the team ages, get through injuries to its key players, can it win big games regularly against opponents better than they are on the talent scale? Can this team be regularly out-coached?

I think the great ones have answered these questions regularly over their careers without qualification regardless of "talent" - they win with who they have because of superior schemes, not only because of superior talent.

Nice summary. The best coaches (Belichick though I don't like him personally) use the talent they have well. This year NE, with no receivers of note, became a running team and made it to the AFCCG. Andy Reid had to re-tool. Walsh, of course, went through nearly a complete roster change. Until Harbaugh teaches Kaepernick how to play, and brings a pro offense to this team, will always be just another coach who inherited a talented roster from a bad coach and winds up looking good in the process.

The sad part of the ending to this past season was that guys like Gore, who deserved to go to the Super Bowl, were denied the opportunity because of the failure of the coaching staff to fully develop a competent QB and offensive philosophy. Now, with a lot of good young players coming up for new contracts, the team will have to part with some vets that will not have the chance for a ring.
Originally posted by crabman82:
mangini as the qb coach?.....was garo yepremium not available?

Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by sfout:
Originally posted by Jcool:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Sounds like inside the bubble group-think.

I'm just going to say this .....

Harbaugh has the potential to be a great coach and it would seem he has the potential to be closed minded that he can't truly evaluate the problem.

Harbaugh is a great coach and what exactly is the problem? Three straight NFC title games, a Superbowl appearance and has yet to win less then 11 games.

dude talent automatically won about 2/3s of our games, we were already a perennial 6-8 win team with Nolan and Singletary because of how stacked the D was. Harbaugh's coaching style and innovation approach did put us over the top but now all that motion, jumbo, and things that freaked teams out in 2011 and even part of 2012 is just another play to any of the top D's in the league, even some of the worse ones.

If we don't come into 2014 with a new gimmick, yes I used gimmick, whether it is going back to a 75%++ pro style offense, or going full retard with the spread like the Saints it'll just be another year of our talent crushing the will out of the team despite the fact that they know what play were trying to run. Then every once in awhile we'll get crushed because we've gotten too cute against D that knows all of our tricks.

I wrote a quality post about how Groupthink is likely the issue within Harbaugh's offense some months ago, probably lost to the abyss by now but heres how it is.....

Harbaugh doesn't need to prove he's a great coach, he's done things no other coach has done, he's simply incredible but what he does need to prove is that he can make the tough decisions when they need to be made. Have the humility to consider an offensive revamp, whether it is schematic or coaches, remember to scheme for teams weaknesses not just our strengths -- we too often just impose our will and it is what leads to our ground out, oh so close for comfort wins, when if we had just played to exploit a team we'd probably annihilate them.

I totally agree with this post .....

It's pretty clear that Nolan and Scott McCloughan (Scout-in-Chief), were a great GM/Scout pair. These two were NOT a coach/GM pair. They're good talent evaluators - and it helps to pick at the upper end of the draft each year with an under performing squad. Nolan was a freshman coach who never was a HC at any level and then was replaced by ANOTHER freshman coach who was never a HC at any level. So OF COURSE you're going to have an under performing team, but what you did have was a pretty good scouting department and some good folks (like Tom Gamble) who were involved with personnel. Schemes? Game-day coaching? Position coaches? Terrible. Nolan and then Singletary had no clue on who to bring in and all were either not qualified to run a pro-style offense (Hostler), was only a temp looking for another job (Turner) or just wasn't right for the personnel for on the team (Martz).

In comes Harbaugh and my expectations were that in the first and second year we would see the first iteration of a developing offense. It would reintroduce common sense and schemes would challenge opponent match-ups game by game. As the NFL chess match evolved, as defensive and offensive coordinators adjusted, Harbaugh would adjust also being a former NFL QB and a disciple of the WCO.

I've seen this on defense but it simply isn't happening on offense. And is it better than the extremely low bar set with Nolan and Singletary? Of course. But again that bar was very low. As the NFL adjusts, now we'll see if he can really coach 'em up and making things happen - as the team ages, get through injuries to its key players, can it win big games regularly against opponents better than they are on the talent scale? Can this team be regularly out-coached?

I think the great ones have answered these questions regularly over their careers without qualification regardless of "talent" - they win with who they have because of superior schemes, not only because of superior talent.

Nice summary. The best coaches (Belichick though I don't like him personally) use the talent they have well. This year NE, with no receivers of note, became a running team and made it to the AFCCG. Andy Reid had to re-tool. Walsh, of course, went through nearly a complete roster change. Until Harbaugh teaches Kaepernick how to play, and brings a pro offense to this team, will always be just another coach who inherited a talented roster from a bad coach and winds up looking good in the process.

The sad part of the ending to this past season was that guys like Gore, who deserved to go to the Super Bowl, were denied the opportunity because of the failure of the coaching staff to fully develop a competent QB and offensive philosophy. Now, with a lot of good young players coming up for new contracts, the team will have to part with some vets that will not have the chance for a ring.

Totally disagree, the coaching staff is what's gotten us too the NFC championship, 3 years in a row. Some people just can't except s**t happens. Seacocks are a tough tough team, and Harbaugh had our guys ready to fight like I've never seen. And saying that the coaching staff took rings from the players...
[ Edited by HarboutTHAT on Jan 23, 2014 at 12:32 PM ]
Browns just hired Mike Pettine, so we keep both guys
Good continuity is what I like :)
Originally posted by THEB:
Browns just hired Mike Pettine, so we keep both guys

So we're keeping all the coaches? I'm just glad Tomsula and Fangio are back
  • buck
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 11,388
Originally posted by Mertonschickendance:
Originally posted by THEB:
Browns just hired Mike Pettine, so we keep both guys

So we're keeping all the coaches? I'm just glad Tomsula and Fangio are back

What is happening with Ed Donatell, the secondary coach? I read somewhere that his contract is up.
Originally posted by HarboutTHAT:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by sfout:
Originally posted by Jcool:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Sounds like inside the bubble group-think.

I'm just going to say this .....

Harbaugh has the potential to be a great coach and it would seem he has the potential to be closed minded that he can't truly evaluate the problem.

Harbaugh is a great coach and what exactly is the problem? Three straight NFC title games, a Superbowl appearance and has yet to win less then 11 games.

dude talent automatically won about 2/3s of our games, we were already a perennial 6-8 win team with Nolan and Singletary because of how stacked the D was. Harbaugh's coaching style and innovation approach did put us over the top but now all that motion, jumbo, and things that freaked teams out in 2011 and even part of 2012 is just another play to any of the top D's in the league, even some of the worse ones.

If we don't come into 2014 with a new gimmick, yes I used gimmick, whether it is going back to a 75%++ pro style offense, or going full retard with the spread like the Saints it'll just be another year of our talent crushing the will out of the team despite the fact that they know what play were trying to run. Then every once in awhile we'll get crushed because we've gotten too cute against D that knows all of our tricks.

I wrote a quality post about how Groupthink is likely the issue within Harbaugh's offense some months ago, probably lost to the abyss by now but heres how it is.....

Harbaugh doesn't need to prove he's a great coach, he's done things no other coach has done, he's simply incredible but what he does need to prove is that he can make the tough decisions when they need to be made. Have the humility to consider an offensive revamp, whether it is schematic or coaches, remember to scheme for teams weaknesses not just our strengths -- we too often just impose our will and it is what leads to our ground out, oh so close for comfort wins, when if we had just played to exploit a team we'd probably annihilate them.

I totally agree with this post .....

It's pretty clear that Nolan and Scott McCloughan (Scout-in-Chief), were a great GM/Scout pair. These two were NOT a coach/GM pair. They're good talent evaluators - and it helps to pick at the upper end of the draft each year with an under performing squad. Nolan was a freshman coach who never was a HC at any level and then was replaced by ANOTHER freshman coach who was never a HC at any level. So OF COURSE you're going to have an under performing team, but what you did have was a pretty good scouting department and some good folks (like Tom Gamble) who were involved with personnel. Schemes? Game-day coaching? Position coaches? Terrible. Nolan and then Singletary had no clue on who to bring in and all were either not qualified to run a pro-style offense (Hostler), was only a temp looking for another job (Turner) or just wasn't right for the personnel for on the team (Martz).

In comes Harbaugh and my expectations were that in the first and second year we would see the first iteration of a developing offense. It would reintroduce common sense and schemes would challenge opponent match-ups game by game. As the NFL chess match evolved, as defensive and offensive coordinators adjusted, Harbaugh would adjust also being a former NFL QB and a disciple of the WCO.

I've seen this on defense but it simply isn't happening on offense. And is it better than the extremely low bar set with Nolan and Singletary? Of course. But again that bar was very low. As the NFL adjusts, now we'll see if he can really coach 'em up and making things happen - as the team ages, get through injuries to its key players, can it win big games regularly against opponents better than they are on the talent scale? Can this team be regularly out-coached?

I think the great ones have answered these questions regularly over their careers without qualification regardless of "talent" - they win with who they have because of superior schemes, not only because of superior talent.

Nice summary. The best coaches (Belichick though I don't like him personally) use the talent they have well. This year NE, with no receivers of note, became a running team and made it to the AFCCG. Andy Reid had to re-tool. Walsh, of course, went through nearly a complete roster change. Until Harbaugh teaches Kaepernick how to play, and brings a pro offense to this team, will always be just another coach who inherited a talented roster from a bad coach and winds up looking good in the process.

The sad part of the ending to this past season was that guys like Gore, who deserved to go to the Super Bowl, were denied the opportunity because of the failure of the coaching staff to fully develop a competent QB and offensive philosophy. Now, with a lot of good young players coming up for new contracts, the team will have to part with some vets that will not have the chance for a ring.

Totally disagree, the coaching staff is what's gotten us too the NFC championship, 3 years in a row. Some people just can't except s**t happens. Seacocks are a tough tough team, and Harbaugh had our guys ready to fight like I've never seen. And saying that the coaching staff took rings from the players...

This isn't just about the most recent game. This is about a coaching staff that, as noted above, inherited a LOADED roster that was predicted to win 10-11 games THE LAST YEAR UNDER SINGLETARY. Harbaugh added a couple of wins due to some tricks and gimmicks, but the league has caught on to those and Harbaugh and staff have had nothing to add to an offense that was designed in college and is no longer generating at the top level. Disagree if you want but it is talent, not coaching that is keeping this team at the top.

Not say coaching is bad. It is good, not great. This off-season will see if Harbaugh catches up.
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by HarboutTHAT:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by sfout:
Originally posted by Jcool:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Sounds like inside the bubble group-think.

I'm just going to say this .....

Harbaugh has the potential to be a great coach and it would seem he has the potential to be closed minded that he can't truly evaluate the problem.

Harbaugh is a great coach and what exactly is the problem? Three straight NFC title games, a Superbowl appearance and has yet to win less then 11 games.

dude talent automatically won about 2/3s of our games, we were already a perennial 6-8 win team with Nolan and Singletary because of how stacked the D was. Harbaugh's coaching style and innovation approach did put us over the top but now all that motion, jumbo, and things that freaked teams out in 2011 and even part of 2012 is just another play to any of the top D's in the league, even some of the worse ones.

If we don't come into 2014 with a new gimmick, yes I used gimmick, whether it is going back to a 75%++ pro style offense, or going full retard with the spread like the Saints it'll just be another year of our talent crushing the will out of the team despite the fact that they know what play were trying to run. Then every once in awhile we'll get crushed because we've gotten too cute against D that knows all of our tricks.

I wrote a quality post about how Groupthink is likely the issue within Harbaugh's offense some months ago, probably lost to the abyss by now but heres how it is.....

Harbaugh doesn't need to prove he's a great coach, he's done things no other coach has done, he's simply incredible but what he does need to prove is that he can make the tough decisions when they need to be made. Have the humility to consider an offensive revamp, whether it is schematic or coaches, remember to scheme for teams weaknesses not just our strengths -- we too often just impose our will and it is what leads to our ground out, oh so close for comfort wins, when if we had just played to exploit a team we'd probably annihilate them.

I totally agree with this post .....

It's pretty clear that Nolan and Scott McCloughan (Scout-in-Chief), were a great GM/Scout pair. These two were NOT a coach/GM pair. They're good talent evaluators - and it helps to pick at the upper end of the draft each year with an under performing squad. Nolan was a freshman coach who never was a HC at any level and then was replaced by ANOTHER freshman coach who was never a HC at any level. So OF COURSE you're going to have an under performing team, but what you did have was a pretty good scouting department and some good folks (like Tom Gamble) who were involved with personnel. Schemes? Game-day coaching? Position coaches? Terrible. Nolan and then Singletary had no clue on who to bring in and all were either not qualified to run a pro-style offense (Hostler), was only a temp looking for another job (Turner) or just wasn't right for the personnel for on the team (Martz).

In comes Harbaugh and my expectations were that in the first and second year we would see the first iteration of a developing offense. It would reintroduce common sense and schemes would challenge opponent match-ups game by game. As the NFL chess match evolved, as defensive and offensive coordinators adjusted, Harbaugh would adjust also being a former NFL QB and a disciple of the WCO.

I've seen this on defense but it simply isn't happening on offense. And is it better than the extremely low bar set with Nolan and Singletary? Of course. But again that bar was very low. As the NFL adjusts, now we'll see if he can really coach 'em up and making things happen - as the team ages, get through injuries to its key players, can it win big games regularly against opponents better than they are on the talent scale? Can this team be regularly out-coached?

I think the great ones have answered these questions regularly over their careers without qualification regardless of "talent" - they win with who they have because of superior schemes, not only because of superior talent.

Nice summary. The best coaches (Belichick though I don't like him personally) use the talent they have well. This year NE, with no receivers of note, became a running team and made it to the AFCCG. Andy Reid had to re-tool. Walsh, of course, went through nearly a complete roster change. Until Harbaugh teaches Kaepernick how to play, and brings a pro offense to this team, will always be just another coach who inherited a talented roster from a bad coach and winds up looking good in the process.

The sad part of the ending to this past season was that guys like Gore, who deserved to go to the Super Bowl, were denied the opportunity because of the failure of the coaching staff to fully develop a competent QB and offensive philosophy. Now, with a lot of good young players coming up for new contracts, the team will have to part with some vets that will not have the chance for a ring.

Totally disagree, the coaching staff is what's gotten us too the NFC championship, 3 years in a row. Some people just can't except s**t happens. Seacocks are a tough tough team, and Harbaugh had our guys ready to fight like I've never seen. And saying that the coaching staff took rings from the players...

This isn't just about the most recent game. This is about a coaching staff that, as noted above, inherited a LOADED roster that was predicted to win 10-11 games THE LAST YEAR UNDER SINGLETARY. Harbaugh added a couple of wins due to some tricks and gimmicks, but the league has caught on to those and Harbaugh and staff have had nothing to add to an offense that was designed in college and is no longer generating at the top level. Disagree if you want but it is talent, not coaching that is keeping this team at the top.

Not say coaching is bad. It is good, not great. This off-season will see if Harbaugh catches up.

Harbaugh added a couple wins? Harbaugh has won at least 11 games in each of his first 3 seasons. Bill Walsh never won more than 10 games in any 2 consecutive years. We've been to the NFCCG three straight years and to the Super Bowl once in Harbaugh's first three years. We barely lost all those games. It is extremely difficult to win the Super Bowl; I don't care how talented you think you are. This is the NFL. We were bottom dwellers with the same squad before Harbaugh got here, and you don't think he made much of a difference because we were PREDICTED to win 10-11 games? We DIDN'T win 10-11 games. We won 6. And before that we won 7. Then all of a sudden after Harbaugh comes we go 13-3, 11-4-1, and 12-4, and you think coaching has nothing to do with our success? Come on, man.
Here is what our current staff looks like let me know if I missed anyone or anything. Out of the entire group I would keep all on the defense (bring back Donatell) and on the offense I'd at least look into upgrading Roman, Solari and Morton. My guess is it stays the same though and Mangini becomes OL coach with Solari or possibly another offensive coach even though he is ideally a defensive coach. I just don't see where they would put him on defense unless Donatell (DB) leaves which he wants to stay and we should want him back.

OFFENSE:
Greg Roman - OC
Geep Chryst - QB
Tom Rathman - RB
John Morton - WR
Reggie Davis - TE
Mike Solari - OL
Eric Mangini - Senior Offensive Consultant
Ronald Curry - Off Assistant
Ejiro Evero - Off Assistant

DEFENSE:
Vic Fangio - DC
Jim Tomsula - DL
Jim Leavitt - LB
Peter Hansen - OLB/Defensive Assistant
Ed Donatell - DB (Contract Expired)
Greg Jackson - DB Assistant

SPECIAL TEAMS:
Brad Seely - ST/Assistant HC
Tracy Smith - ST Assistant

LOST:
Tim Drevno - OL
Paul Wulff - Senior Offensive Assistant
[ Edited by Gore_21 on Jan 23, 2014 at 3:05 PM ]
Originally posted by real9erfan:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by HarboutTHAT:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by sfout:
Originally posted by Jcool:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Sounds like inside the bubble group-think.

I'm just going to say this .....

Harbaugh has the potential to be a great coach and it would seem he has the potential to be closed minded that he can't truly evaluate the problem.

Harbaugh is a great coach and what exactly is the problem? Three straight NFC title games, a Superbowl appearance and has yet to win less then 11 games.

dude talent automatically won about 2/3s of our games, we were already a perennial 6-8 win team with Nolan and Singletary because of how stacked the D was. Harbaugh's coaching style and innovation approach did put us over the top but now all that motion, jumbo, and things that freaked teams out in 2011 and even part of 2012 is just another play to any of the top D's in the league, even some of the worse ones.

If we don't come into 2014 with a new gimmick, yes I used gimmick, whether it is going back to a 75%++ pro style offense, or going full retard with the spread like the Saints it'll just be another year of our talent crushing the will out of the team despite the fact that they know what play were trying to run. Then every once in awhile we'll get crushed because we've gotten too cute against D that knows all of our tricks.

I wrote a quality post about how Groupthink is likely the issue within Harbaugh's offense some months ago, probably lost to the abyss by now but heres how it is.....

Harbaugh doesn't need to prove he's a great coach, he's done things no other coach has done, he's simply incredible but what he does need to prove is that he can make the tough decisions when they need to be made. Have the humility to consider an offensive revamp, whether it is schematic or coaches, remember to scheme for teams weaknesses not just our strengths -- we too often just impose our will and it is what leads to our ground out, oh so close for comfort wins, when if we had just played to exploit a team we'd probably annihilate them.

I totally agree with this post .....

It's pretty clear that Nolan and Scott McCloughan (Scout-in-Chief), were a great GM/Scout pair. These two were NOT a coach/GM pair. They're good talent evaluators - and it helps to pick at the upper end of the draft each year with an under performing squad. Nolan was a freshman coach who never was a HC at any level and then was replaced by ANOTHER freshman coach who was never a HC at any level. So OF COURSE you're going to have an under performing team, but what you did have was a pretty good scouting department and some good folks (like Tom Gamble) who were involved with personnel. Schemes? Game-day coaching? Position coaches? Terrible. Nolan and then Singletary had no clue on who to bring in and all were either not qualified to run a pro-style offense (Hostler), was only a temp looking for another job (Turner) or just wasn't right for the personnel for on the team (Martz).

In comes Harbaugh and my expectations were that in the first and second year we would see the first iteration of a developing offense. It would reintroduce common sense and schemes would challenge opponent match-ups game by game. As the NFL chess match evolved, as defensive and offensive coordinators adjusted, Harbaugh would adjust also being a former NFL QB and a disciple of the WCO.

I've seen this on defense but it simply isn't happening on offense. And is it better than the extremely low bar set with Nolan and Singletary? Of course. But again that bar was very low. As the NFL adjusts, now we'll see if he can really coach 'em up and making things happen - as the team ages, get through injuries to its key players, can it win big games regularly against opponents better than they are on the talent scale? Can this team be regularly out-coached?

I think the great ones have answered these questions regularly over their careers without qualification regardless of "talent" - they win with who they have because of superior schemes, not only because of superior talent.

Nice summary. The best coaches (Belichick though I don't like him personally) use the talent they have well. This year NE, with no receivers of note, became a running team and made it to the AFCCG. Andy Reid had to re-tool. Walsh, of course, went through nearly a complete roster change. Until Harbaugh teaches Kaepernick how to play, and brings a pro offense to this team, will always be just another coach who inherited a talented roster from a bad coach and winds up looking good in the process.

The sad part of the ending to this past season was that guys like Gore, who deserved to go to the Super Bowl, were denied the opportunity because of the failure of the coaching staff to fully develop a competent QB and offensive philosophy. Now, with a lot of good young players coming up for new contracts, the team will have to part with some vets that will not have the chance for a ring.

Totally disagree, the coaching staff is what's gotten us too the NFC championship, 3 years in a row. Some people just can't except s**t happens. Seacocks are a tough tough team, and Harbaugh had our guys ready to fight like I've never seen. And saying that the coaching staff took rings from the players...

This isn't just about the most recent game. This is about a coaching staff that, as noted above, inherited a LOADED roster that was predicted to win 10-11 games THE LAST YEAR UNDER SINGLETARY. Harbaugh added a couple of wins due to some tricks and gimmicks, but the league has caught on to those and Harbaugh and staff have had nothing to add to an offense that was designed in college and is no longer generating at the top level. Disagree if you want but it is talent, not coaching that is keeping this team at the top.

Not say coaching is bad. It is good, not great. This off-season will see if Harbaugh catches up.

Harbaugh added a couple wins? Harbaugh has won at least 11 games in each of his first 3 seasons. Bill Walsh never won more than 10 games in any 2 consecutive years. We've been to the NFCCG three straight years and to the Super Bowl once in Harbaugh's first three years. We barely lost all those games. It is extremely difficult to win the Super Bowl; I don't care how talented you think you are. This is the NFL. We were bottom dwellers with the same squad before Harbaugh got here, and you don't think he made much of a difference because we were PREDICTED to win 10-11 games? We DIDN'T win 10-11 games. We won 6. And before that we won 7. Then all of a sudden after Harbaugh comes we go 13-3, 11-4-1, and 12-4, and you think coaching has nothing to do with our success? Come on, man.

Yes, coaching had a great deal to do with the success. By just not screwing anything up like Singletary did, the talent on the team was able to play. Harbaugh did bring some tricks that helped them win that first year but by year two those no longer worked. The offense became mired in the same old stew and remains there now. Harbaugh was great compared to Singletary but still has the same game and time management issues, still ultra conservative offense, etc.

Second, Harbaugh benefitted by the timing of his arrival. Vernon Davis had matured due to Singletary's handling and was ready to break out. Patrick Willis had become a star. Other key players had a reached a maturity level as well. He did little to develop much of the core of the team.

In short, all he had to do was not screw up the talent that was already here. He has done that, but the team continues to struggle on the same hurdle it did the first year he was here. It is hard to say this team has gotten better since that first year, particularly on offense. Holding serve is not a great achievement.
Originally posted by real9erfan:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by HarboutTHAT:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by sfout:
Originally posted by Jcool:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Sounds like inside the bubble group-think.

I'm just going to say this .....

Harbaugh has the potential to be a great coach and it would seem he has the potential to be closed minded that he can't truly evaluate the problem.

Harbaugh is a great coach and what exactly is the problem? Three straight NFC title games, a Superbowl appearance and has yet to win less then 11 games.

dude talent automatically won about 2/3s of our games, we were already a perennial 6-8 win team with Nolan and Singletary because of how stacked the D was. Harbaugh's coaching style and innovation approach did put us over the top but now all that motion, jumbo, and things that freaked teams out in 2011 and even part of 2012 is just another play to any of the top D's in the league, even some of the worse ones.

If we don't come into 2014 with a new gimmick, yes I used gimmick, whether it is going back to a 75%++ pro style offense, or going full retard with the spread like the Saints it'll just be another year of our talent crushing the will out of the team despite the fact that they know what play were trying to run. Then every once in awhile we'll get crushed because we've gotten too cute against D that knows all of our tricks.

I wrote a quality post about how Groupthink is likely the issue within Harbaugh's offense some months ago, probably lost to the abyss by now but heres how it is.....

Harbaugh doesn't need to prove he's a great coach, he's done things no other coach has done, he's simply incredible but what he does need to prove is that he can make the tough decisions when they need to be made. Have the humility to consider an offensive revamp, whether it is schematic or coaches, remember to scheme for teams weaknesses not just our strengths -- we too often just impose our will and it is what leads to our ground out, oh so close for comfort wins, when if we had just played to exploit a team we'd probably annihilate them.

I totally agree with this post .....

It's pretty clear that Nolan and Scott McCloughan (Scout-in-Chief), were a great GM/Scout pair. These two were NOT a coach/GM pair. They're good talent evaluators - and it helps to pick at the upper end of the draft each year with an under performing squad. Nolan was a freshman coach who never was a HC at any level and then was replaced by ANOTHER freshman coach who was never a HC at any level. So OF COURSE you're going to have an under performing team, but what you did have was a pretty good scouting department and some good folks (like Tom Gamble) who were involved with personnel. Schemes? Game-day coaching? Position coaches? Terrible. Nolan and then Singletary had no clue on who to bring in and all were either not qualified to run a pro-style offense (Hostler), was only a temp looking for another job (Turner) or just wasn't right for the personnel for on the team (Martz).

In comes Harbaugh and my expectations were that in the first and second year we would see the first iteration of a developing offense. It would reintroduce common sense and schemes would challenge opponent match-ups game by game. As the NFL chess match evolved, as defensive and offensive coordinators adjusted, Harbaugh would adjust also being a former NFL QB and a disciple of the WCO.

I've seen this on defense but it simply isn't happening on offense. And is it better than the extremely low bar set with Nolan and Singletary? Of course. But again that bar was very low. As the NFL adjusts, now we'll see if he can really coach 'em up and making things happen - as the team ages, get through injuries to its key players, can it win big games regularly against opponents better than they are on the talent scale? Can this team be regularly out-coached?

I think the great ones have answered these questions regularly over their careers without qualification regardless of "talent" - they win with who they have because of superior schemes, not only because of superior talent.

Nice summary. The best coaches (Belichick though I don't like him personally) use the talent they have well. This year NE, with no receivers of note, became a running team and made it to the AFCCG. Andy Reid had to re-tool. Walsh, of course, went through nearly a complete roster change. Until Harbaugh teaches Kaepernick how to play, and brings a pro offense to this team, will always be just another coach who inherited a talented roster from a bad coach and winds up looking good in the process.

The sad part of the ending to this past season was that guys like Gore, who deserved to go to the Super Bowl, were denied the opportunity because of the failure of the coaching staff to fully develop a competent QB and offensive philosophy. Now, with a lot of good young players coming up for new contracts, the team will have to part with some vets that will not have the chance for a ring.

Totally disagree, the coaching staff is what's gotten us too the NFC championship, 3 years in a row. Some people just can't except s**t happens. Seacocks are a tough tough team, and Harbaugh had our guys ready to fight like I've never seen. And saying that the coaching staff took rings from the players...

This isn't just about the most recent game. This is about a coaching staff that, as noted above, inherited a LOADED roster that was predicted to win 10-11 games THE LAST YEAR UNDER SINGLETARY. Harbaugh added a couple of wins due to some tricks and gimmicks, but the league has caught on to those and Harbaugh and staff have had nothing to add to an offense that was designed in college and is no longer generating at the top level. Disagree if you want but it is talent, not coaching that is keeping this team at the top.

Not say coaching is bad. It is good, not great. This off-season will see if Harbaugh catches up.

Harbaugh added a couple wins? Harbaugh has won at least 11 games in each of his first 3 seasons. Bill Walsh never won more than 10 games in any 2 consecutive years. We've been to the NFCCG three straight years and to the Super Bowl once in Harbaugh's first three years. We barely lost all those games. It is extremely difficult to win the Super Bowl; I don't care how talented you think you are. This is the NFL. We were bottom dwellers with the same squad before Harbaugh got here, and you don't think he made much of a difference because we were PREDICTED to win 10-11 games? We DIDN'T win 10-11 games. We won 6. And before that we won 7. Then all of a sudden after Harbaugh comes we go 13-3, 11-4-1, and 12-4, and you think coaching has nothing to do with our success? Come on, man.

I think this is apples and oranges ... but sure I'll bite. Walsh was never handed a completely stocked team bursting with talent on day one and then winning the Super Bowl by his third season in a free-agent less, significantly smaller, and more talented NFL. 3 seasons later, did it again and then finally created a team over the next 4 seasons with talent that would establish it for the next 20 years. Each version of his teams were evolving, better, more talented, etc...

The key, Walsh teams didn't repeat the exact same errors that kept them from winning the championship in each version. The current 49ers IMHO could hold their own if not beat - if coached similarly - Walsh's most talented version of his team - the 1988 version. I would argue the Alex Smith version, if coached with the same coaching staff, would also give the 1988 version fits. So even before Jerry Rice and Taylor, Walsh still won ... the Super Bowl. Sure his teams didn't always have winning seasons, but I could completely understand a letdown after championship seasons.

You're correct - we barely lost those games under Harghbaugh, but what's disturbing is that we're losing in the SAME ways - offense. We were told against the Giants, we lost because Crabtree was the only receiving option. We add an aging but respect-demanding Moss and productive at the time productive Manningham, get to the Super Bowl and weather a storm and in crunch time, three passes, essentially the same play to the one player we said the offense didn't need to focus on because we needed more options. This season we lose again because why? When it mattered most, the offense again struggled to complete a pass/sustain a run game/ etc. when it needed it the most to make the next step. Lesson learned? More talented team? In each of Walsh's examples, the more talented his teams, the more successful - so much so, in their final version, his DC could just come in and just essentially place the team in the same coaching system and repeat the same success by more.

Has Harbaugh created a successful template to win a championship like Walsh? I don't think he's actively doing that.
Originally posted by dj43:
. . . Harbaugh and staff have had nothing to add to an offense that was designed in college and is no longer generating at the top level. Not say coaching is bad. It is good, not great. This off-season will see if Harbaugh catches up.

I agree that the offensive scheme and OC play-calling are poor. By simply hiring a very good OC and giving him power to implement and revamp the offensive scheme I think we would win it all. Ball-control passing was non-existent. Steve Young always said that passes to TE and RB are how a QB gets confidence and a feel/rhythm. Gore had 16 catches. Hunter had 2. McDonald had 8. Celek and James had 2.

Simply designing short passes to these guys (TE & RB) would loosen up the defense, develop these players, improve their confidence, move the chains and tire the defense, and help Kap get a better feel for the game. Plus need to throw in a deep pass here and there which they almost never do.

Most of our coaches are good. Our D is good, although I think Fangio should also be more aggressive in blitzing, since we have great LB's who are great blitzers. Bowman is a great pass rusher, between him and Willis they should get 10-15 sacks on blitzes plus lots of pressures. o/w the coaching is good. It's mostly the offensive OC & philosophy that is killing us.
Originally posted by maxsmart:
Originally posted by dj43:
. . . Harbaugh and staff have had nothing to add to an offense that was designed in college and is no longer generating at the top level. Not say coaching is bad. It is good, not great. This off-season will see if Harbaugh catches up.

I agree that the offensive scheme and OC play-calling are poor. By simply hiring a very good OC and giving him power to implement and revamp the offensive scheme I think we would win it all. Ball-control passing was non-existent. Steve Young always said that passes to TE and RB are how a QB gets confidence and a feel/rhythm. Gore had 16 catches. Hunter had 2. McDonald had 8. Celek and James had 2.

Simply designing short passes to these guys (TE & RB) would loosen up the defense, develop these players, improve their confidence, move the chains and tire the defense, and help Kap get a better feel for the game.
I agree with all you said here, especially the part about using short passes to backs and TEs. That has always been a part of the WCO. From Charle Young to John Frank, Brent Jones and Eric Johnson were always a part of that ball-control offense. As we all know, Roger Craig set a record for backs receiving the ball. Walsh used to call those plays "long handoffs."

However, Harbaugh has CLEARLY shown us he has no interest in that type of offense. In addition to getting rid of the perfect QB to execute that offense, he passed on pass-catching tight ends like Coby Fleener and Zach Ertz in favor of a lumbering behemoth (McDonald) that has been used as a blocker for his power running game more than anything else.

We can forget about a change in OC to bring in some other kind of offense. HARBAUGH is making the calls here via Greg Roman. This is HARBAUGH'S offense and he is not going to change it. We can talk about Baalke stepping in and forcing a change but given the rumors about Harbaugh asking for MORE control over personnel and the like, the chances of Baalke forcing a change in OC without also a change in HC do not seem likely to me. This is who Harbaugh is. He is far better than Singletary but far behind Bill Walsh. We may as well learn to live with it as long as he remains HC. I hope I am proven wrong but I don't see any signs of change.
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