Analysis from Seahawks Game coaches film

Originally posted by jonesadrian:
That's the thing. If it was ar1 all the way and it worked then we see the rewards. We need to make it so that there is no Ar1 and nothing else. That's on the coordinator and his philosophy imo. When there are multiple options repeatedly Kap proves that he spreads the ball around. They just need to be consistently called especially now with Crab and Boldin out there. Give him the option on 90% of the passing plays to look for multiple people and make the decisions. he's proven he can do that. this thread shows he can do it, the only way he can do it as consistently as brees/peyton, is if he gets those play calls all the time.

but with that being said i don't have a problem with him getting the ball out of his hands quickly majority of the time if the guy he's throwing to is open. it helps hide our offensive line. he already does help hide the line's pass blocking a lot. and it's not really any different than peyton or brees.. 80% of the time they snap the ball they're getting rid of it to their diagnosed 1st read based on the pre snap call and adjustments.
that's why its difficult to sack them.
however where our offense differs is that if the 1st read isn't there they always have 3 more

whereas if our 1st read isn't there and the rest of the people are decoys.. now what?

Yes and no, like I showed with the Packers film, every team has designed plays to get 1 guy the ball. Also, Kaep is still learning to go through his progressions. There are positive plays I have shown but here's a bad read against the saints on the first drive of the game.



Here the run a streak on the outside with Baldwin, Manningham runs a slant and Davis runs a quick out. The Saints are showing all out blitz 0-coverage.



Kaep turns and throws the ball to Vernon on the quick out. Here's the problem though. The slot defender has off coverage with the safety playing underneath on Vernon, there is no pick on the defender to the outside, if he throws it inside the defender has a more difficult angle with his own guy between him and the defender. Also, there are 2 defenders in position for the outside throw with only 1 on the inside and no one in the middle of the field.



Davis is caught 5 yds shy of a 1st down

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Agreed. other's are more obvious esp. the AR2's. We can argue about whether this was a pre-determined one-read (AR1) or a PS passing play where CK had really, 3 true progresion passing options and the coverage dictated the pass (in this case, to Boldin). In this case, it may have been VD (deeper), then Boldin and then McDonald. If this was one of those plays, FANTASTIC b/c CK got it right...hit the receiver underneath just as the deeper route occupies two DB's.

But here is where I call B.S. Look at WHEN CK throws the ball. It's to Boldin even before Boldin makes his cut inside (and before he could even determine if his CB was going to go with VD or stay with him - he knows by VD cutting to the corner that it's going to open Boldin up inside). This is by design and VD, Boldin and CK executed it to perfection. Moss made this team passing offense a staple for us all last year as a critical decoy...clearing VD and Crabtree for underneath catches every game.

IMHO, it was Boldin all the way. AR1.

BTW: If VD was a true option here in a progression passing play (dictated by coverage in play), CK would have had to pass to him very early in his route (once he beat the first LB and before the S came up). And Boldin would NOT have been routed to break right into this same zone (i.e. 2 receivers in the same area). No way VD was a true deep option here. CK would have had to wait even longer and by the time the ball got there, he'd be out of bounds (no real window esp. with a S there and a DB underneath somewhat - VD never once turned around either during this time until Boldin broke inside, naturally).

How I disagree is probably in our view of CK. If you believe CK is a 1-read QB you'll see it as AR1. However, I truly believe this is a sign of his maturity as a QB. Understand I am NOT a CK defender. In fact, I had a very hard time with accepting him as our starter. I've been a huge critic of his all year. However, from what I see in the route tree, I can say with 90% certainty that it's a coverage read. He doesn't have to read IF the corner is staying with Vernon, he reads the LB drop in zone which tells him cover 3, the corner WILL stay on top with Vernon. Vernon clears out the zone and he anticipates the throw, throwing it to the open man before the defense can adjust. This is a huge step for him. His biggest weakness this year(and last) was his inability to anticipate the hole in the zone(I'll show some examples of that later). This is on par with when Brees or Manning would make the throw, just as the receiver is entering his break. When Peyton threw his 49th TD pass a few years ago it was on a post route with a flag fake(meaning the receiver ran straight down the field faked to go out on a flag and turned back in to the post route) It was against a cover 2 zone and Manning threw the ball right after he made his first cut. The receiver caught the ball litereally on his first step out of his break 20 yards downfield. The receiver was open because Manning read the defense correctly and anticipated the opening.

I am also seeing the maturation process. The throw he made here was a great example of him coming along with regards to recognizing defenses. In a coverage read play, it's not about "is the WR open?", it's all about "what is the defense doing?". This allows him to anticipate WRs coming open or if the route is defeated due to the coverage being played.

As a QB, Kap should already know where the WRs are going to be, after all, they are his WRs. Instead, he has to quickly analyze what the defense is doing using keys, like you said, the depth of the LB, the technique of the CB (over top, trail position, etc.), the position of the safety(s), is the middle of the field open or closed. This is all information he has to process in order to know which route to target. You put an example to this by mentioning Peyton's TD pass.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by jonesadrian:
That's the thing. If it was ar1 all the way and it worked then we see the rewards. We need to make it so that there is no Ar1 and nothing else. That's on the coordinator and his philosophy imo. When there are multiple options repeatedly Kap proves that he spreads the ball around. They just need to be consistently called especially now with Crab and Boldin out there. Give him the option on 90% of the passing plays to look for multiple people and make the decisions. he's proven he can do that. this thread shows he can do it, the only way he can do it as consistently as brees/peyton, is if he gets those play calls all the time.

but with that being said i don't have a problem with him getting the ball out of his hands quickly majority of the time if the guy he's throwing to is open. it helps hide our offensive line. he already does help hide the line's pass blocking a lot. and it's not really any different than peyton or brees.. 80% of the time they snap the ball they're getting rid of it to their diagnosed 1st read based on the pre snap call and adjustments.
that's why its difficult to sack them.
however where our offense differs is that if the 1st read isn't there they always have 3 more

whereas if our 1st read isn't there and the rest of the people are decoys.. now what?

Yes and no, like I showed with the Packers film, every team has designed plays to get 1 guy the ball. Also, Kaep is still learning to go through his progressions. There are positive plays I have shown but here's a bad read against the saints on the first drive of the game.



Here the run a streak on the outside with Baldwin, Manningham runs a slant and Davis runs a quick out. The Saints are showing all out blitz 0-coverage.



Kaep turns and throws the ball to Vernon on the quick out. Here's the problem though. The slot defender has off coverage with the safety playing underneath on Vernon, there is no pick on the defender to the outside, if he throws it inside the defender has a more difficult angle with his own guy between him and the defender. Also, there are 2 defenders in position for the outside throw with only 1 on the inside and no one in the middle of the field.



Davis is caught 5 yds shy of a 1st down

This is another perfect example of an AR1. Before I even saw the next screen shot, I knew it was going to VD. Why? Just look at the design. Clearly, the top WR is going to run a go clearing out the space underneath (BTW, we run this route all the time). Then you can see where the inside WR is going to slant in drawing another (hopefully two) defenders clearing out the edge for VD to get RAC and the first down. Simple. The problem wasn't in progression or a coverage read...it was on execution by the (defense) this time. They didn't buy the deep go AT ALL and in fact, they didn't bite on the slant either. Both defenders converge on VD and the play is blown up. They were reading VD as the AR all the way which is what all the good DC's have picked up on. I'm willing to bet CK didn't even BOTHER to look in any other direction.

But now with VD, Crabtree, Manningham and Boldin, it's MUCH harder to guess correctly. This is why I was so happy that HaRoMan flared out the RB's so much more this game as true outlets for CK. If at this early juncture, he can get CK at least THINKING about checkin down instantly if that AR is covered, we'd have a ton of big plays, he'd be clean and we'd have POSITIVE YARDS ON 1ST DOWN!

THIS THREAD IS WINNING

Originally posted by jonesadrian:
...whereas if our 1st read isn't there and the rest of the people are decoys.. now what?

That was our issue since Week 2. All-or-nothing. Now, we're seeing much more chemistry between CK and Boldin, Crabtree and VD (alone). Those guys are very good at ad libbing and making a play for CK if that AR is covered (or he doesn't pull the trigger). Teams can easily key in on 1 or 2 guys...now they can't! So suddenly these ad lib plays are going for TD's and big gains like we've seen the past two games. Crabtree is the reason!

This thread

Thank you jonnydel and others for some amazing analysis. Best thread in NT.

Originally posted by NCommand:
This is another perfect example of an AR1. Before I even saw the next screen shot, I knew it was going to VD. Why? Just look at the design. Clearly, the top WR is going to run a go clearing out the space underneath (BTW, we run this route all the time). Then you can see where the inside WR is going to slant in drawing another (hopefully two) defenders clearing out the edge for VD to get RAC and the first down. Simple. The problem wasn't in progression or a coverage read...it was on execution by the (defense) this time. They didn't buy the deep go AT ALL and in fact, they didn't bite on the slant either. Both defenders converge on VD and the play is blown up. They were reading VD as the AR all the way which is what all the good DC's have picked up on. I'm willing to bet CK didn't even BOTHER to look in any other direction.

But now with VD, Crabtree, Manningham and Boldin, it's MUCH harder to guess correctly. This is why I was so happy that HaRoMan flared out the RB's so much more this game as true outlets for CK. If at this early juncture, he can get CK at least THINKING about checkin down instantly if that AR is covered, we'd have a ton of big plays, he'd be clean and we'd have POSITIVE YARDS ON 1ST DOWN!

The only reason I disagree is that on the film you see Kaep change the play with VD and Ham, he called that play at the LOS after seeing the defense, he should've recoginized the coverage and hit Manningham

I really appreciate factual level headed posts - this one is epic!

Originally posted by jonnydel:
The only reason I disagree is that on the film you see Kaep change the play with VD and Ham, he called that play at the LOS after seeing the defense, he should've recoginized the coverage and hit Manningham

Of course. CK is given freedom to choose 1 of the 2 AR plays...ones that present the best matchup, naturally. That said, given he usually only has about 3 seconds left on the play clock, I would venture to guess that he stays with the primary call the mass majority of the time (esp. on running calls); we love those brick walls! Haha

This play indirectly led to the INT that was thrown in the 3rd quarter.

This play below is in the 1st quarter. Cover1 with press man coverage. Kap throws it up for Crabs to make a play, and he does. 17 yard catch over the CB Maxwell.
Here's what the defense showed pre-snap:


As a reference, here's the defensive alignment on the INT. Single high safety with a press man pre-snap look:


Both passes are to Crabs versus tight coverage. When Kap saw this alignment in the 3rd quarter, he called an audible to the route he remembered from the 1st quarter play, which resulted in a 17 yard catch. For more info on the INT play (see post #13 of this thread).

So what worked in the 1st quarter made Kap want to do it again. Here's the 1st quarter play:

Originally posted by thl408:
This play indirectly led to the INT that was thrown in the 3rd quarter.

This play below is in the 1st quarter. Cover1 with press man coverage. Kap throws it up for Crabs to make a play, and he does. 17 yard catch over the CB Maxwell.
Here's what the defense showed pre-snap:


As a reference, here's the defensive alignment on the INT. Single high safety with a press man pre-snap look:


Both passes are to Crabs versus tight coverage. When Kap saw this alignment in the 3rd quarter, he called an audible to the route he remembered from the 1st quarter play, which resulted in a 17 yard catch. For more info on the INT play (see post #13 of this thread).

So what worked in the 1st quarter made Kap want to do it again. Here's the 1st quarter play:

Like I had mentioned earlier about this play, it's poor recognition from Kaep. If you look at the first play, the alignment of the LB's reveal the man coverage, also, Sherman is pressed on the li
In the 2nd play, you see the LB's are centered up, no way they're playing man coverage against that formation. You can see my previous analysis of that play for my view on what he should've done

Originally posted by NCommand:
This is another perfect example of an AR1. Before I even saw the next screen shot, I knew it was going to VD. Why? Just look at the design. Clearly, the top WR is going to run a go clearing out the space underneath (BTW, we run this route all the time). Then you can see where the inside WR is going to slant in drawing another (hopefully two) defenders clearing out the edge for VD to get RAC and the first down. Simple. The problem wasn't in progression or a coverage read...it was on execution by the (defense) this time. They didn't buy the deep go AT ALL and in fact, they didn't bite on the slant either. Both defenders converge on VD and the play is blown up. They were reading VD as the AR all the way which is what all the good DC's have picked up on. I'm willing to bet CK didn't even BOTHER to look in any other direction.

But now with VD, Crabtree, Manningham and Boldin, it's MUCH harder to guess correctly. This is why I was so happy that HaRoMan flared out the RB's so much more this game as true outlets for CK. If at this early juncture, he can get CK at least THINKING about checkin down instantly if that AR is covered, we'd have a ton of big plays, he'd be clean and we'd have POSITIVE YARDS ON 1ST DOWN!

my question is, are these guys real options or just running routes to decoy but the play being called and understood in the huddle is to go to the specific person.

because if it is he's carrying out orders.. and i don't care for those orders.

i think the thing that makes him special is the more options you give...it makes it impossible to defend or even try to guess right or wrong, just accept what's coming

Originally posted by NCommand:
That was our issue since Week 2. All-or-nothing. Now, we're seeing much more chemistry between CK and Boldin, Crabtree and VD (alone). Those guys are very good at ad libbing and making a play for CK if that AR is covered (or he doesn't pull the trigger). Teams can easily key in on 1 or 2 guys...now they can't! So suddenly these ad lib plays are going for TD's and big gains like we've seen the past two games. Crabtree is the reason!

agreed, so the problem is stop making it ar1 plays. which i agree with.
no more decoys everyone has a purpose and position and he knows going into the play that these are real options based on coverage he can change who his 1st read will be before the snap based on coverage.

i.e. 1st read by play call is boldin.. goes to the line sees the coverage notices mismatch with vd.. does not change the play call but knows that based on the route that vd will be open if the coverage is read correctly. snaps it looks boldin's way as planned, he's covered as he thought, waits..tosses it to vd for the completion.

i think these are things he can do consistently if given the chance i just wish they would expand the offense so that the production can expand with it

Never been a big "football" fan, though I've been a huge 49ers fan for over two decades now. This thread has taught me so much about football, gives me a new appreciation for the game. I mean I knew it was complex, but never realized it was this complex! Thanks again Johnnydel!

Originally posted by jonesadrian:

Originally posted by NCommand:
That was our issue since Week 2. All-or-nothing. Now, we're seeing much more chemistry between CK and Boldin, Crabtree and VD (alone). Those guys are very good at ad libbing and making a play for CK if that AR is covered (or he doesn't pull the trigger). Teams can easily key in on 1 or 2 guys...now they can't! So suddenly these ad lib plays are going for TD's and big gains like we've seen the past two games. Crabtree is the reason!

agreed, so the problem is stop making it ar1 plays. which i agree with.
no more decoys everyone has a purpose and position and he knows going into the play that these are real options based on coverage he can change who his 1st read will be before the snap based on coverage.

i.e. 1st read by play call is boldin.. goes to the line sees the coverage notices mismatch with vd.. does not change the play call but knows that based on the route that vd will be open if the coverage is read correctly. snaps it looks boldin's way as planned, he's covered as he thought, waits..tosses it to vd for the completion.

i think these are things he can do consistently if given the chance i just wish they would expand the offense so that the production can expand with it

You know, that's an interesting point. Most of the time, esp. if they have more "active" parts in getting the AR the ball, they aren't even LOOKING back at the QB, are on the other side of the field, walking, standing there, still blocking out a guy, etc. This passing game makes it simple for CK and receivers know their part. The next phase if incorporating more PS passing plays where CK truly has to read a coverage presnap and in-play and choose the bext option. But even with these AR routes, coaching needs to focus on the decoys...even if you are the non-AR, keep your eyes in the backfield as much as possible and be redy to break out of your role.