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2013 - Week 12: Thoughts after rewatching the game

Nice review, Marvin49. Just to piggyback off some of the points you raised.

- It was nice to see Ham get targeted with the first 3-4 passes. For sure it opened things up a bit for Boldin.

- Like you stated, looks like the back shoulder throw to Boldin is here to stay versus press man coverage. Very nice placement on those passes versus WAS.

- When given time in the pocket, Kap can stand and deliver. His arm talent is undeniable. Much has been made of the near INTs, but I only counted one and it was the near pick-6 to the WAS linebacker - terrible pass. There was another tipped pass on an out route to the left side, but it was just that, a tip. Defenders have trouble intercepting Kap's bullet passes for a reason. They just aren't used to catching lasers. Apparently, there was a third 'near INT', but I can't recall it.

- Fangio is very creative with how he uses Aldon. I saw Aldon lined up in his usual spot versus the LT, on the other side of the formation versus the RT, and also as a DT. This isn't anything new though. One pass rush saw Aldon, Lemon, and Brooks on the field at the same time with TJE as the 4th rusher (Aldon as DT). Not sure how many times this front 4 saw the field, but I counted once for sure. Once Lemon ripens, this personnel (sub TJE for Justin) will wreak havoc and should rival the potent DL rotation that NYG had in their SB run.

- Shanahan is a dummy for continuing to throw those lame WR screens. Versus the 49er LB crew, it's suicide. Even Gruden mentioned during the telecast that the WAS WRs must be going back to the huddle saying, "throw that pass to someone else".

- LMJ showed us why he should be the PR and why he should not be the PR. Nice job when he catches the ball, but had a blatant muff that he was lucky to recover.

- Eliminate the screen pass from the playbook or practice it a hell of a lot more. The 49ers look like a bunch of pee wee kids when they try a right/left screen. Completely disjointed and full of fail, from the QB to the OL.

- Why does the 49er offense always get off to such slow starts. It's like the first two or three possessions are just throwaway possessions.
  • GORO
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Originally posted by lamontb:
I sat in seat 224 on vistors side......nothing but niner fans....it was like that 2 years ago aswell


Really impressed with our fan base support!
Originally posted by GORO:
Originally posted by sacniner:
Right, but what Gruden was saying is he is tired of the "no weapons" excuse. It was our week 12 game last night. We should have a decent handle on how to use this year's weapons by now. And last year he didn't really need to look at his second read which no one really mentioned. Obviously, that won't work forever. I think Gruden meant that Kap needs to just step up. If that means going to his second read, so be it. We can differ on that, but I don't see anything wrong with his comment.

And, how many teams really have "two burners" at TE?

I have always believed that Gruden wanted the 49er job and any chance to attack the 49ers he will gladly do so especially on the offensive side. When Harbaugh was given the job, he never complimented him and called him a so called Quarterback guru? His son was quoted as saying he wanted the 49er job, I read this some where prior to Singleterry getting fired.


I disagree there. He PRAISED Roman during the Bears Monday Nighter last year.
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
Nice write up.

Dilfer and Gruden are right though. We have weapons. Sorry the passing game struggles have been on Roman and Kap much more so than the receivers. Boldin, Manningham, Baldwin, Vernon are all very talented dudes. That's a better receiving core than a lot of NFL teams. Kap has not seen the field well, period. It's been broken down on NFL network and Espn and talked about by many analysts. Now hopefully yesterday was a step in the right direction, but we need Kap to see the field against the top teams.


Again...thats not what I'm saying.

They ARE talented. The problem is that they can't do what last years receiving corps did. They have different skillsets. That makes Kap have to do things he doesn't yet do well and forces Roman to abandon the offense that worked so well down the stretch last year.

The personnel is a HUGE part of this, but so is the QB and the OC.
Gruden and Dilfer make me laugh... I actually like the guys but I hate when they make blanket statements that don't hold water. In the carolina game, or Indy, etc... when we couldn't move the ball on offense, why didn't Kaep just throw the ball to one of his many weapons?????? Manningham? Vernon? Crabtree? BECAUSE ALL OF THOSE GUYS WERE INJURED!!!

I saw a stat that said Kaep was 6 for 9 on his passes last night that went for more than 15 yards. He can push the ball downfield more because teams can't just double Boldin anymore.
Originally posted by thl408:
Nice review, Marvin49. Just to piggyback off some of the points you raised.

- It was nice to see Ham get targeted with the first 3-4 passes. For sure it opened things up a bit for Boldin.

- Like you stated, looks like the back shoulder throw to Boldin is here to stay versus press man coverage. Very nice placement on those passes versus WAS.

- When given time in the pocket, Kap can stand and deliver. His arm talent is undeniable. Much has been made of the near INTs, but I only counted one and it was the near pick-6 to the WAS linebacker - terrible pass. There was another tipped pass on an out route to the left side, but it was just that, a tip. Defenders have trouble intercepting Kap's bullet passes for a reason. They just aren't used to catching lasers. Apparently, there was a third 'near INT', but I can't recall it.

- Fangio is very creative with how he uses Aldon. I saw Aldon lined up in his usual spot versus the LT, on the other side of the formation versus the RT, and also as a DT. This isn't anything new though. One pass rush saw Aldon, Lemon, and Brooks on the field at the same time with TJE as the 4th rusher (Aldon as DT). Not sure how many times this front 4 saw the field, but I counted once for sure. Once Lemon ripens, this personnel (sub TJE for Justin) will wreak havoc and should rival the potent DL rotation that NYG had in their SB run.

- Shanahan is a dummy for continuing to throw those lame WR screens. Versus the 49er LB crew, it's suicide. Even Gruden mentioned during the telecast that the WAS WRs must be going back to the huddle saying, "throw that pass to someone else".

- LMJ showed us why he should be the PR and why he should not be the PR. Nice job when he catches the ball, but had a blatant muff that he was lucky to recover.

- Eliminate the screen pass from the playbook or practice it a hell of a lot more. The 49ers look like a bunch of pee wee kids when they try a right/left screen. Completely disjointed and full of fail, from the QB to the OL.

- Why does the 49er offense always get off to such slow starts. It's like the first two or three possessions are just throwaway possessions.

I don't think the near int's are a minor issue. Kap is extremely lucky he hasn't had more int's, incl a couple of possible pick sixes. He has a tendency to throw into double, triple and even quadruple coverage when others are wide open. His vision of the field is still in need of much improvement. And while his arm talent is undeniable, several of his completions were because of good to great catches and not very good throws. As with Alex, Kap needs consistency. His high QB rating for last night's game notwithstanding, it was not an overall great game by Kap. I can think of 2 passes to Vernon alone, that, had they hit him in stride, were probable TD's. It certainly was his best game since Green Bay, but we need to see 4 excellent quarters from him, as well as good consecutive games. One good game against a deflated Washington team is a start, but that's it.
Originally posted by 4evrfan:
I don't think the near int's are a minor issue. Kap is extremely lucky he hasn't had more int's, incl a couple of possible pick sixes. He has a tendency to throw into double, triple and even quadruple coverage when others are wide open. His vision of the field is still in need of much improvement. And while his arm talent is undeniable, several of his completions were because of good to great catches and not very good throws. As with Alex, Kap needs consistency. His high QB rating for last night's game notwithstanding, it was not an overall great game by Kap. I can think of 2 passes to Vernon alone, that, had they hit him in stride, were probable TD's. It certainly was his best game since Green Bay, but we need to see 4 excellent quarters from him, as well as good consecutive games. One good game against a deflated Washington team is a start, but that's it.

Agreed on the bolded. I'd like to get specific here to discuss these near INTs. I can recall a few off the top of my head.

- Two versus WAS that have been mentioned. One was a legit near pick 6. The other was not imo.

- two deflected passes by Laurenitis vs STL. On one pass Laurenitis got his finger tips on a pass. Normally, a defender is not skilled enough to reel that in. Laurenitis' backs that up. The other was batted down. Both is not what I consider near INTs as I've seen these plays in slo-mo.

- A pass goes through Jonathan Joseph's fingertips versus HOU and Boldin ends up making an improbable catch along the left sidelines. Again, a hard throw that goes through a defender's fingertips is close, but is not what I consider a pass that should have been INTed. It's a game of inches so if someone says 'well an inch closer and it's an INT', then allow me to say an inch the other way and he doesn't even tip it.

- 2Q pass versus TEN. Horrible decision to throw to VD on a corner route, dropped by McCourty. This is a legit near INT.

- 1Q pass to Boldin on a deep slant versus CAR. Good decision, poor pass. The CB cuts under the route and drops an INT. This is a legit near INT.

I agree with you that these near INTs are an issue. In some cases, an inch to the left/right here or there and it could very well be an INT. My post you quoted was specifically about the WAS game and I just wanted to point out that as a defender, getting your hand on the pass is only half the battle. Being able to reel it in is another obstacle in itself due to the velocity on Kap's throws. The near pick6 versus WAS was close, and Kap totally telegraphed that short range throw, but he did bullet the throw and that makes it harder for a defender to reel in the pass. Catching a bullet with just the hands (not using the body) is difficult for anyone and some defenders aren't offensive players for this sole reason, poor hands. I can see this topic getting out of control so please allow me to bow out of it.
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Regarding 1), 2) 3), I am in disagreement. We did our usual in mauling a doormat. Our run offense was inconsistent, our pass offense did not look sharp, decisive, well paced, confident. None of those things. We trotted out the same long ball ideas -- we won yesterday because VD can't be covered by skin secondary + Bolding can outmuscle anyone on skin secondary. Nothing new. What's becoming more apparent are the missed reads by kap to check down receivers out of the backfield -- also his hesitation in making plays -- whatever they may be -- taking off on a scramble, just taking the open space on a safety valve, or trying to find a lane in a collapsing pocket.

Someone in another thread said he looked hurt -- like he just can't move the way he did last year -- I wonder if that's right.

However, the playcalling is not helping him any. It's so predictable. Hunter in? It's going wide. Kap turns around with Gore in the backfield -- a handoff between the tackles. Nothing weird off a fake, very little of that. I think one problem is that our tells are so obvious, teams overload and breakdown a play with very little caution. They know we run out of the Jumbo 95% of the time. And they other 5% are bombs to whoever. We can't beat tells like that.

In fact, I wonder if the whole idea of our package offense is kind of turning into a giant tell. We need to execute plays from formations where we can do maybe 2 or 3 different things equally if we want to keep the second level off the line for 1.5 seconds. Now, they are like .5 yards deep in the backfield at 1.5 seconds so the play is broken down often. I don't know.

I really didn't get a sense that yesterday was a renaissance game for our offensive scheme or Kap.

Fortunately, if ALdon + Brooks + lemonhead can play at the higher level, we will start to get our sacks. then we really wont give up more than 3 scores a game. Maybe we can get by on that.

Justin had a good game too. I think Vic is starting to mix it up. No more 3 man rushes!!

Agreed with everything you mentioned defensively. Except I REALLY am getting sick and tired of seeing our corners play so OFF... WTFF Fangio
Originally posted by defenderDX:
Agreed with everything you mentioned defensively. Except I REALLY am getting sick and tired of seeing our corners play so OFF... WTFF Fangio

I feel Fangio is a big fan of secondary coverage disguise. By playing the CBs off and giving the WRs cushion, it allows the secondary to prolong its disguise post snap. When lined up in a press coverage alignment (no cushion) you give the look of man coverage on the outside. Once the ball is snapped and the CB turns and runs with the WR, it's for sure man coverage, and it's seen by the QB. If the CB gives cushion, say a 5-7 yard cushion, it does two things. First, it allows leeway for slower CBs like Rogers to turn and run on deep routes. Second, as the WR runs towards the CB to eliminate this cushion post snap, the first 5-6 steps that the WR takes reveals nothing to the offense as to what coverage is being played by the secondary.

On the flip side, the CB can give no cushion to provide a man coverage look, then back peddle post snap to his zone, but that reduces his ability to play the run. With the front 4 dealing tremendous QB pressure, allowing the CB to face the QB is a huge benefit for the CBs. They can jump short routes easier and support the run easier since they face the play. Carlos Rogers is a very good run support CB and the majority of the time, when lined up out wide, he is giving a cushion for these reasons.

This opens up the defense to fall victim to shorter routes, but that's where the excellent inside LB crew comes in and falls to the correct depth and takes away passing lanes to the inside.
Some random comments on the game. It seems that Kaep is a confidence thrower. If he does not have confidence in you as a receiver he will not throw it. It is clear that he had a great deal of confidence in Boldin and Davis. To get 4 catches in a game indicates that Kaep is developing confidence in Manningham. The fact that McDonald caught a pass indicates that Kaep and McDonald are still in the process of developing confidence. McDonald has dropped enough passes that Kaep has to work at trusting McDonald to actually catch a pass thrown to him. If that relationship could blossom that would open up a lot of opportunities because it would eliminate the double coverage issues. It will be interesting to see how long it takes for Crabs to get up to speed and to redevelop the confidence level. Kaep has 0 confidence in Baldwin.

An Issue that I have with Roman is that he does not seem to know how to develop rapport between receivers and Kaep. If all passes are by design to a specific receiver then Kaep is not being trained to go through his progressions, and he does not have the opportunity to develop repeated opportunities to help develop a relationship with other receivers. Roman also seems to not want screens, nor even use RBs as last ditch escape valve passes. Miller always seems to be open and seeing Hunter with a screen pass would be wonderful. So there seems to be a lot of open options that for whatever reason Roman does not want to take. Another question is if Harbaugh wanted to get another OC next year who would he realistically look for?

On defense it was nice to see Aldon back at near full strength. It also seems as if Brooks had taken another step in his development in that he feels it is ok to get sacks and does not defer to Aldon. If both Aldon and Brooks can both become heat seeking missles our pass rush will take off. It was nice to see Cowboy at full speed as well. Another player who seems to be blossoming is TJE. He seemed to be in on a lot of plays and seems to be growing. Lemonier is still getting some time out there and that bodes well for us as well. The defensive backfield also did well and we got all around good defensive play.

Special teams did well last night. James is learning to handle punts in cold weather and it will be interesting to see whether he can develop into a quality punt returner. We know he can get us yards and give us better field position than Williams did. Mental lapses will be crucial for James.

Over all good game against a poor team. We have one more practice game before Seattle.
Originally posted by Ninefan56:
Some random comments on the game. It seems that Kaep is a confidence thrower. If he does not have confidence in you as a receiver he will not throw it. It is clear that he had a great deal of confidence in Boldin and Davis. To get 4 catches in a game indicates that Kaep is developing confidence in Manningham. The fact that McDonald caught a pass indicates that Kaep and McDonald are still in the process of developing confidence. McDonald has dropped enough passes that Kaep has to work at trusting McDonald to actually catch a pass thrown to him. If that relationship could blossom that would open up a lot of opportunities because it would eliminate the double coverage issues. It will be interesting to see how long it takes for Crabs to get up to speed and to redevelop the confidence level. Kaep has 0 confidence in Baldwin.

An Issue that I have with Roman is that he does not seem to know how to develop rapport between receivers and Kaep. If all passes are by design to a specific receiver then Kaep is not being trained to go through his progressions, and he does not have the opportunity to develop repeated opportunities to help develop a relationship with other receivers. Roman also seems to not want screens, nor even use RBs as last ditch escape valve passes. Miller always seems to be open and seeing Hunter with a screen pass would be wonderful. So there seems to be a lot of open options that for whatever reason Roman does not want to take. Another question is if Harbaugh wanted to get another OC next year who would he realistically look for?

On defense it was nice to see Aldon back at near full strength. It also seems as if Brooks had taken another step in his development in that he feels it is ok to get sacks and does not defer to Aldon. If both Aldon and Brooks can both become heat seeking missles our pass rush will take off. It was nice to see Cowboy at full speed as well. Another player who seems to be blossoming is TJE. He seemed to be in on a lot of plays and seems to be growing. Lemonier is still getting some time out there and that bodes well for us as well. The defensive backfield also did well and we got all around good defensive play.

Special teams did well last night. James is learning to handle punts in cold weather and it will be interesting to see whether he can develop into a quality punt returner. We know he can get us yards and give us better field position than Williams did. Mental lapses will be crucial for James.

Over all good game against a poor team. We have one more practice game before Seattle.

I think he's always had confidence in Manningham dating back to last year to be honest
Member Milestone: This is post number 800 for Disp.
Originally posted by defenderDX:
Agreed with everything you mentioned defensively. Except I REALLY am getting sick and tired of seeing our corners play so OFF... WTFF Fangio

I still don't get this. Do you guys not realize that this defense is allowing under 13 points a game in the last 8 games? Would you prefer they play press coverage every down and possibly bump that number higher when a receiver blows by them on a go route? Press is good sometimes, but not all the time.
I liked Kap hitting Manninham on a couple of slants...Good stuff.
Great job as usual Marvin49! I do think the coaching staff is holding Kaepernick back and telling him repeatedly to not run the ball so he doesn't get hurt out there. Last year there was no hesitation at all he would take off get the 1st down and more. Hopefully they are keeping him on a leash until the playoffs.
Originally posted by Ninefan56:
Some random comments on the game. It seems that Kaep is a confidence thrower. If he does not have confidence in you as a receiver he will not throw it. It is clear that he had a great deal of confidence in Boldin and Davis. To get 4 catches in a game indicates that Kaep is developing confidence in Manningham. The fact that McDonald caught a pass indicates that Kaep and McDonald are still in the process of developing confidence. McDonald has dropped enough passes that Kaep has to work at trusting McDonald to actually catch a pass thrown to him. If that relationship could blossom that would open up a lot of opportunities because it would eliminate the double coverage issues. It will be interesting to see how long it takes for Crabs to get up to speed and to redevelop the confidence level. Kaep has 0 confidence in Baldwin.

An Issue that I have with Roman is that he does not seem to know how to develop rapport between receivers and Kaep. If all passes are by design to a specific receiver then Kaep is not being trained to go through his progressions, and he does not have the opportunity to develop repeated opportunities to help develop a relationship with other receivers. Roman also seems to not want screens, nor even use RBs as last ditch escape valve passes. Miller always seems to be open and seeing Hunter with a screen pass would be wonderful. So there seems to be a lot of open options that for whatever reason Roman does not want to take. Another question is if Harbaugh wanted to get another OC next year who would he realistically look for?

On defense it was nice to see Aldon back at near full strength. It also seems as if Brooks had taken another step in his development in that he feels it is ok to get sacks and does not defer to Aldon. If both Aldon and Brooks can both become heat seeking missles our pass rush will take off. It was nice to see Cowboy at full speed as well. Another player who seems to be blossoming is TJE. He seemed to be in on a lot of plays and seems to be growing. Lemonier is still getting some time out there and that bodes well for us as well. The defensive backfield also did well and we got all around good defensive play.

Special teams did well last night. James is learning to handle punts in cold weather and it will be interesting to see whether he can develop into a quality punt returner. We know he can get us yards and give us better field position than Williams did. Mental lapses will be crucial for James.

Over all good game against a poor team. We have one more practice game before Seattle.

St. Louis is not going to be a practice game. In fact, with the way that St. Louis' pass rush is going these days, the challenge to our offense next week will be similar to what they faced against Seattle and Carolina - stacked box, man press coverage, gap blitzing. If we win next week it will be a quality win.

Speaking of which ... I hate how everybody says we have only beaten one good team this year (Green Bay) when we did completely decimate both St. Louis and Arizona. They aren't elite teams, but who exactly has Seattle beaten?
Brooks is getting to elite status. Him and Aldon make this D elite IMO. Kap looked better. I wish they would take more shots down field tho. The running game has fallen off big time, but as the passing game gains traction I believe it will come back. LMJ is doing his thing, but he's gotta hang on to the ball. I still believe we get into the playoffs and do damage.
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