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Analysis: 2011 49ers vs. 2013 49ers, and why are we faltering?

  • Jcool
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 19,051
How many "this is why we are struggling" threads is this now?
Originally posted by Jcool:
How many "this is why we are struggling" threads is this now?


Exactly the same as how many Alex Smith threads there are.
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
I can't believe people just skim the post and conclude it's a Pro-Alex / Anti-Kaepernick thread which it most certainly is not.

This is DEFENDING CK for FRICKS SAKE. COME ON. If you would take ONE SECOND to gather what is being said here you would have clearly understood that I said the exact same thing you just said AND expanded on it. On your second bolded part -- tell that to the 2012 Packers in the Playoffs.

An "I love Alex thread?" Are you effing kidding me?


Then why are you comparing 2011 with 2013? Why not 2012 (the year we won the NFC Championship) with 2013? You chose to compare this team with our team two years ago, but not last year?

Then you cherry pick 4th quarter quarterback ratings to make one particular quarterback look really good compared to the other one. Why not 3rd quarter QB ratings? Why not 2nd quarter quarterback ratings? Why not 1st quarter quarterback ratings?

It smells very much like another "you know who" thread.

Sorry folks, you're seeing what you want to see and getting all up in arms over nothing. I used the two years strictly because the supporting casts are both terrible as far as WRs. OL play has been bad. And we have injuries. And Roman, just like people complained about at the time, is not consistently making good calls. The defense is still top 10. Running game is top 10. But the passing game is struggling. Not because CK lacks talent, but because of what I mentioned: as poor as the 2011 cast was, this year is actually poorer, and he needs more help. We have no speed on offense and it's hurting him. Additionally, he is still young and it's not his fault he's learning a lot of things on the fly. I can say these things 1000 different ways. CK deserves nowhere near the hate he's gotten on this board.

At the same time, CK is not blameless, so I did want to be fair and credit his turnovers to him as part of something that needs to improve. That's something he can change -- and I'm sure he knows it.

Fellas, when CK "gets there," it'll be obvious he's a better all-around QB. He's not there mentally yet, but only time will change that. The physical instincts will be hindered to an extent until the mental ones catch up, and I want to encourage fans to be patient in that regard.

No matter how much you two want to continue to attack, I will not fuel that flame. This has nothing to do with our former QB. He only happened to be playing the position at the time of the year that these similar other factors were present. That's it. This is about a struggle our team is having right now. There's an area that could be better, and I'm talking about it.
GREAT post OTC. That is a pretty comprehensive breakdown of our offensive struggles. A couple points I want to make:

We need to remember that when Kap first took over the starting job, he was basically running the same scheme as AS. The only difference was we were getting bigger plays in the passing game. We didn't unleash the pistol as a focal point of the offense until the playoffs started. That's why I don't buy all the talk that Kap is a one read QB, or that he can't run a pro offense. He was running a conventional offense in the first 7 starts of his career and doing it well.

When I watch the Saints game, the biggest issue I have is the personnel groupings on offense. For much of the game we were using formations with only Boldin as the single WR. Like you said, there is ZERO speed on offense. We were using goalline formations for the entirety of the game. WTF???? Bruce Miller was motioning out as the 2nd WR on many occasions. Manningham and Baldwin were on the field for less than 50% of the snaps. This is lunacy.
Originally posted by SofaKing:
GREAT post OTC. That is a pretty comprehensive breakdown of our offensive struggles. A couple points I want to make:

We need to remember that when Kap first took over the starting job, he was basically running the same scheme as AS. The only difference was we were getting bigger plays in the passing game. We didn't unleash the pistol as a focal point of the offense until the playoffs started. That's why I don't buy all the talk that Kap is a one read QB, or that he can't run a pro offense. He was running a conventional offense in the first 7 starts of his career and doing it well.

When I watch the Saints game, the biggest issue I have is the personnel groupings on offense. For much of the game we were using formations with only Boldin as the single WR. Like you said, there is ZERO speed on offense. We were using goalline formations for the entirety of the game. WTF???? Bruce Miller was motioning out as the 2nd WR on many occasions. Manningham and Baldwin were on the field for less than 50% of the snaps. This is lunacy.

It's ridiculous. We're not fooling anyone. Splitting Miller out wide isn't going to trick anyone into thinking we're going to run because we're playing a heavy package. They're going to load the box regardless because Miller isn't going to get open against any athletic DB.

That's not creativity. That's idiocy.
My main reason the offense is struggling is because the PLAYCALLING AND FORMATIONS ARE TOO PREDICTABLE!!! Teams and defenses have figured the "boring 1988 Chicago Bears offense".
Originally posted by 49FanMan:
Well whether you meant it or not, you essentially said the teams are similar with the only major difference being the QB and concluded Kap must be the primary problem. Your thread boils down to Smith vs. Kap, IMO.


This is a direct quote from your OP: "2. The biggest improvement needed is QB"



Not a very good defense of Kap...LOL

Silly posts. But you are welcome to make rude remarks with no substance...will you critique yourself honestly? Or just give yourself a pass?
Did anyone mention that the Harbaugh/Roman system was brand-new to the NFL in 2011?

I mean, teams could always get film of Stanford games, but no one had any idea what Jim & Greg were trotting out during their first year.

Teams have now had two seasons to watch these Harbaugh-49ers and pick up on their tendencies. We're not surprising people any more.

Add into this the injuries, Roman apparently getting too complex with the calls at times, & Kaep struggling to go through his progressions (and maybe finding no one open anyway cause everyone is hurt), and you have all the reasons you need to explain why we're not dominating this year.

But lemme say this... I'll take these 49ers over Erickson/Nolan/Singletary any day. Some of you kids forget how bad we used to be...
My main point in all this is while it may be true "there's no one to throw to" just like in 2011. The difference is there is no speed to open up the field for the few other receiving options we have. No Delanie. No Ginn. Heck, not even Williams now (although that's not exactly a bad thing).

What we do have is Baldwin, but we seem to refuse to utilize his deep speed (AND height for that matter). Nor do we use James as a receiver. And that touches on my comment of failure to utilize the speed we do currently have.
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
My main point in all this is while it may be true "there's no one to throw to" just like in 2011. The difference is there is no speed to open up the field for the few other receiving options we have. No Delanie. No Ginn. Heck, not even Williams now (although that's not exactly a bad thing).

What we do have is Baldwin, but we seem to refuse to utilize his deep speed (AND height for that matter). Nor do we use James as a receiver. And that touches on my comment of failure to utilize the speed we do currently have.


Wasn't he the one who didn't control the ball through the catch on the TD, or was that MM?
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by SofaKing:
GREAT post OTC. That is a pretty comprehensive breakdown of our offensive struggles. A couple points I want to make:

We need to remember that when Kap first took over the starting job, he was basically running the same scheme as AS. The only difference was we were getting bigger plays in the passing game. We didn't unleash the pistol as a focal point of the offense until the playoffs started. That's why I don't buy all the talk that Kap is a one read QB, or that he can't run a pro offense. He was running a conventional offense in the first 7 starts of his career and doing it well.

When I watch the Saints game, the biggest issue I have is the personnel groupings on offense. For much of the game we were using formations with only Boldin as the single WR. Like you said, there is ZERO speed on offense. We were using goalline formations for the entirety of the game. WTF???? Bruce Miller was motioning out as the 2nd WR on many occasions. Manningham and Baldwin were on the field for less than 50% of the snaps. This is lunacy.

It's ridiculous. We're not fooling anyone. Splitting Miller out wide isn't going to trick anyone into thinking we're going to run because we're playing a heavy package. They're going to load the box regardless because Miller isn't going to get open against any athletic DB.

That's not creativity. That's idiocy.

LOL...another good point! That might work in college but the NFL has good, fast DBs on every team. I really think a FB in motion might be useful but a FB split wide means the DBs can play one on and concentrate elsewhere. I honestly am at a loss for many of the plays they run but keep coming back to the turn over of players leaving them short handed with players who actually know the playbook well enough to be creative. I'd almost rather have CK draw plays in the grass--VD line up in and do a post, Manningham line up wide and go in motion toward VD--cut behind him when he goes, Boldin line up short and do a five yard out...Gore block and then slide out over the center three yards and look for the ball.

Harbaugh says he draws plays everywhere, all times of the day just as Walsh did...really? Are they all jumbo plays? Can CK please have a five to ten yard escape receiver on every play? Please?

Time to go to bed...you guys are depressing me!
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
My main point in all this is while it may be true "there's no one to throw to" just like in 2011. The difference is there is no speed to open up the field for the few other receiving options we have. No Delanie. No Ginn. Heck, not even Williams now (although that's not exactly a bad thing).

What we do have is Baldwin, but we seem to refuse to utilize his deep speed (AND height for that matter). Nor do we use James as a receiver. And that touches on my comment of failure to utilize the speed we do currently have.


Wasn't he the one who didn't control the ball through the catch on the TD, or was that MM?

Yes, he botched the TD. Thankfully Boldin covered him with a TD on the next play.

It would be nice to see him get more than 2 passes thrown his way. Or at the very least, have him on the field for a higher percentage of snaps and use that speed to simultaneously give us a deep option while helping clear-out the underneath stuff. The "clear-out" also in some cases would give CK even more open field to run through. I feel like CK is another one of the players who is not being given enough opportunity to showcase his speed either.
[ Edited by OnTheClock on Nov 19, 2013 at 9:44 PM ]
Originally posted by NickSh49:
Did anyone mention that the Harbaugh/Roman system was brand-new to the NFL in 2011?

I mean, teams could always get film of Stanford games, but no one had any idea what Jim & Greg were trotting out during their first year.

Teams have now had two seasons to watch these Harbaugh-49ers and pick up on their tendencies. We're not surprising people any more.

Add into this the injuries, Roman apparently getting too complex with the calls at times, & Kaep struggling to go through his progressions (and maybe finding no one open anyway cause everyone is hurt), and you have all the reasons you need to explain why we're not dominating this year.

But lemme say this... I'll take these 49ers over Erickson/Nolan/Singletary any day. Some of you kids forget how bad we used to be...

This is an interesting post. When Walsh created the WCO he already had enough experience as OC and at Stanford to know how to design a system that could be flexible enough to change without changing principles. There was so much that could be done, so many formations and routes that he could change it up every year and defenses couldn't stop it. Some believe today's defenses would be too complex for the WCO...nonsense!

Harbaugh and Roman have to find a way to make year to year transitions (changes) without losing effectiveness. But Walsh had one advantage Harbaugh does not...Eddy D's deep pockets! You can't keep every FA these days...have turn over every year and need to try and maintain continuity...tough job.
I have not made a comment all season, just watching what goes on. The biggest problem I see is at wide receiver, missing Crabtree, and at TE missing # 2 Delanie Walker.

Kaep has regressed some this season, his confidence is not at 100%. I think he needs to run a real west coast offense, more short passes, slants, passes to the RB and still you do get some deep passes, which are lacking.

I really think Crabtree will make a huge difference, if he is fully healthy and hasn't lost anything. We do miss the deep threat, even if it is a decoy, that we had in Moss and Ginn.

We see with carolina with Ginn, that the Niners just are not fully using all their weapons. james should be a part of the passing game, as should kendall hunter. Dixon could be a bruiser back at times. I think the talent is not being utilized 100% and the play calling has been very conservative. Kaep has been very timid and he is slow to release, unlike last year.

I want to see Carradine play, I want to see aldon smith and Lemonier rushing the passer on the same plays. The pass rush is not what it could be.

I am not giving up--I remember in 88, the Niners offense was bad, we were 6-5, then we had a MNF game against the redskins and it all turned around and we won the Super Bowl.
Kap can have 10 wide receivers on the field, and it will still be an incomplete pass.