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Analysis: 2011 49ers vs. 2013 49ers, and why are we faltering?

Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Just like Alex never deserved the level of hate he got, CK doesn't deserve hate either. He has played terrible in some stretches, but when you handicap/weigh his performance with consideration for certain factors -- experience and the NFL adapting to the read-option are the big ones -- you can see there is an underlying cause for his problems and it's not 100% his fault.

There is no way around the fact that he has displayed some downright abysmal moments out there. I mean, I've been utterly disgusted at times, and I HATE that he has had HORRENDOUS performances. But I am forced to except that the problem stretches far, far beyond CK himself, so I understand deep down that he does not deserve to be blasted with some of the hate he is getting or has gotten.

I agree with you here as well. I expected him to be calmer under pressure and make decent decisions but he has been erratic in the extreme. It's important for him to take responsibility, step to the mike and say something like, "I've got a lot to learn and this has been a humbling experience!"
[ Edited by dtg_9er on Nov 19, 2013 at 9:30 PM ]
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Just like Alex never deserved the level of hate he got, CK doesn't deserve hate either. He has played terrible in some stretches, but when you handicap/weigh his performance with consideration for certain factors -- experience and the NFL adapting to the read-option are the big ones -- you can see there is an underlying cause for his problems and it's not 100% his fault.

There is no way around the fact that he has displayed some downright abysmal moments out there. I mean, I've been utterly disgusted at times, and I HATE that he has had HORRENDOUS performances. But I am forced to except that the problem stretches far, far beyond CK himself, so I understand deep down that he does not deserve to be blasted with some of the hate he is getting or has gotten.

I agree with you here as well. I expected him to be calmer under pressure and make decent decisions but he has be erratic in the extreme. It's important for him to take responsibility, step to the mike and say something like, "I've got a lot to learn and this has been a humbling experience!"

Yeah, I wish he would. But in the end, what's most important is getting the job done.

I keep thinking about what Roman said and the more I do, the more it wows me. The gravity of the statement is so understated it's crazy. Roman in other words flat out said that even at this point in his career, late in his 3rd season, he's still in the "seeing things for the first time" phase. It pains me greatly to know this means we are very well aware that CK is still possibly not that close to completing his main development.

Again, this could mean we don't see major improvement sometime anywhere from the start of the playoffs (if we make it) to late next season. I sure hope it's the former.
[ Edited by OnTheClock on Nov 19, 2013 at 7:30 PM ]
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Are people here serious?

We lose a game 10 - 9. We lose 7 yards on a quarterback option on 2nd and short late in the game. People are wondering why we lose?

We lose a game where Fangio rushes three players on a super critical 3rd and 12. THREE PLAYERS. Then the Brooks b******t.


Without this b******t we are 8 - 2, with a quarterback who has a better rating then our last quarterback. With nothing to complain about. Our coaches stupidity and the refs stupidity have cost us the last two games. I can't imagine another interpretation.

We had the ball with 2 minutes left in regulation and we couldn't do a thing with it. Conservative play calling, a lack of trust in younger/new players has infected the system. Manning throws a pass to his young tight end, who drops a sure catch. The very next play he goes right back to the TE who makes the catch and muscles his way to a first down. Contrast that with our style. Drop a pass and you don't get another pass thrown your way.

Young players sitting on the bench because our coaches don't feel that they're seasoned enough. Look at other teams and they are playing everybody, getting them game experience, while we take a wait till next year approach. We are like a Marty Shottemhimer team. So conservative that we can win most games but not the big ones.
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Just like Alex never deserved the level of hate he got, CK doesn't deserve hate either. He has played terrible in some stretches, but when you handicap/weigh his performance with consideration for certain factors -- experience and the NFL adapting to the read-option are the big ones -- you can see there is an underlying cause for his problems and it's not 100% his fault.

There is no way around the fact that he has displayed some downright abysmal moments out there. I mean, I've been utterly disgusted at times, and I HATE that he has had HORRENDOUS performances. But I am forced to except that the problem stretches far, far beyond CK himself, so I understand deep down that he does not deserve to be blasted with some of the hate he is getting or has gotten.

I agree with you here as well. I expected him to be calmer under pressure and make decent decisions but he has be erratic in the extreme. It's important for him to take responsibility, step to the mike and say something like, "I've got a lot to learn and this has been a humbling experience!"

Yeah, I wish he would. But in the end, what's most important is getting the job done.

I keep thinking about what Roman said and the more I do, the more it wows me. The gravity of the statement is so understated it's crazy. Roman in other words flat out said that even at this point in his career, late in his 3rd season, he's still in the "seeing things for the first time" phase. It pains me greatly to know this means we are very well aware that CK is still possibly not that close to completing his main development.

Again, this could mean we don't see major improvement sometime anywhere from the start of the playoffs (if we make it) to late next season. I sure hope it's the former.

Kaep hasn't played against all the teams/DCs in the league so far and is probaly seeing different wrinkles in the game every week. Add that we are all teams measuring stick.

This where coaching needs to come in and help him and not force congested plays that a zone can delay progression for a second which is costly
[ Edited by 49AllTheTime on Nov 19, 2013 at 7:40 PM ]
LOS play and speed on offense
Hey look, another "I'm madly in love with Alex Smith thread. "


The seasons aren't even comparable in so many ways. We were unknown coming out of the NFC Worst in 2011. Everyone was healthy. We played incredible D and the field position game. Our kicker broke Jerry Rice's single season record for points scored.

After two back to back deep playoff runs, we are injured and a measuring stick for every team in the league. Our star defender just got out of rehab. Our number 1 WR hasn't even seen the field. Justin Smith is 2 years older and not only do we lack speed, but we dont even have a WR outside of Boldin that can get off the line.

Besides the fact that our OC has become JimmyRayesqu in his game plan and in game ajustments, we've still had a similar record to 2011 before last week. And I'm not sure why you bring up the Pistol/read option? That never was a big part of Kaps success last year with the exception of one or two games. If anything, its shown to be a hinderance to Kap, not an asset when called.

I can't believe comparing names on a roster from two years ago is considered an indepth analysis..
I pray that when we right the ship with Kap, some of you will be too embarrassed to post again.
Originally posted by 49FanMan:
I pray that when we right the ship with Kap, some of you will be too embarrassed to post again.

I think you have nailed it in most parts. But, I would add this :

1) In 2011, as far as offense goes, we pretty much just ran the ball. Teams had no idea you could just run the ball and play defense to win ball games without having to put up more points. I just don't think they were sold on such a concept, as such no team really thought about it in a serious way in how to stop such an offense. The result was a 13-3 season.

2) However, in 2013 times have changed. At first, teams focused their efforts in stopping the read-option/Pistol given how successful the 9ers were when they ran it last year after Kap took over under center.Soon, it became apparent Kap started to struggle with the passing game, be it due to his own play, playcalling plus WRs not getting open. In other words, teams were no longer massively concerned with the play action passes as they once were.

3) Once teams lost respect for the 9ers' passing game, game-planning became pretty much easier and simpler. OK, the 9ers can't throw the ball, let's re-allocate our resouces to stop their run game then. Sure, they have a good O-line with a bunch of big guys, if we can't match-up with size, let's just make it up in numbers and stuff the box with 8 or 9 guys and see what they can do. Viola, solution found in how to stop 9er's formerly formidable run game.

NET RESULT - 9ers No Longer Have An Offense (at least under the current particular set of circumstances)

So, yes I agree the passing game struggle will continue for quite some time. The return of Crab by right should ease it to a degree, but I wouldn't expect an immediate return to the former explosive offense of last year. To add, teams have now figured out how to stop the run game which means the offense wil continue to falter big time.
Originally posted by 49FanMan:
Hey look, another "I'm madly in love with Alex Smith thread. "


The seasons aren't even comparable in so many ways. We were unknown coming out of the NFC Worst in 2011. Everyone was healthy. We played incredible D and the field position game. Our kicker broke Jerry Rice's single season record for points scored.

After two back to back deep playoff runs, we are injured and a measuring stick for every team in the league. Our star defender just got out of rehab. Our number 1 WR hasn't even seen the field. Justin Smith is 2 years older and not only do we lack speed, but we dont even have a WR outside of Boldin that can get off the line.

Besides the fact that our OC has become JimmyRayesqu in his game plan and in game ajustments, we've still had a similar record to 2011 before last week. And I'm not sure why you bring up the Pistol/read option? That never was a big part of Kaps success last year with the exception of one or two games. If anything, its shown to be a hinderance to Kap, not an asset when called.

I can't believe comparing names on a roster from two years ago is considered an indepth analysis..

I can't believe people just skim the post and conclude it's a Pro-Alex / Anti-Kaepernick thread which it most certainly is not.

This is DEFENDING CK for FRICKS SAKE. COME ON. If you would take ONE SECOND to gather what is being said here you would have clearly understood that I said the exact same thing you just said AND expanded on it. On your second bolded part -- tell that to the 2012 Packers in the Playoffs.

An "I love Alex thread?" Are you effing kidding me?
[ Edited by OnTheClock on Nov 19, 2013 at 8:23 PM ]
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by 49FanMan:
Hey look, another "I'm madly in love with Alex Smith thread. "


The seasons aren't even comparable in so many ways. We were unknown coming out of the NFC Worst in 2011. Everyone was healthy. We played incredible D and the field position game. Our kicker broke Jerry Rice's single season record for points scored.

After two back to back deep playoff runs, we are injured and a measuring stick for every team in the league. Our star defender just got out of rehab. Our number 1 WR hasn't even seen the field. Justin Smith is 2 years older and not only do we lack speed, but we dont even have a WR outside of Boldin that can get off the line.

Besides the fact that our OC has become JimmyRayesqu in his game plan and in game ajustments, we've still had a similar record to 2011 before last week. And I'm not sure why you bring up the Pistol/read option? That never was a big part of Kaps success last year with the exception of one or two games. If anything, its shown to be a hinderance to Kap, not an asset when called.

I can't believe comparing names on a roster from two years ago is considered an indepth analysis..

I can't believe people just skim the post and conclude it's a Pro-Alex / Anti-Kaepernick thread which it most certainly is not.

This is DEFENDING CK for FRICKS SAKE. COME ON. If you would take ONE SECOND to gather what is being said here you would have clearly understood that I said the exact same thing you just said AND expanded on it. On your second bolded part -- tell that to the 2012 Packers in the Playoffs.

An "I love Alex thread?" Are you effing kidding me?

Well whether you meant it or not, you essentially said the teams are similar with the only major difference being the QB and concluded Kap must be the primary problem. Your thread boils down to Smith vs. Kap, IMO.


This is a direct quote from your OP: "2. The biggest improvement needed is QB"



Not a very good defense of Kap...LOL
[ Edited by 49FanMan on Nov 19, 2013 at 8:33 PM ]
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
I can't believe people just skim the post and conclude it's a Pro-Alex / Anti-Kaepernick thread which it most certainly is not.

This is DEFENDING CK for FRICKS SAKE. COME ON. If you would take ONE SECOND to gather what is being said here you would have clearly understood that I said the exact same thing you just said AND expanded on it. On your second bolded part -- tell that to the 2012 Packers in the Playoffs.

An "I love Alex thread?" Are you effing kidding me?


Then why are you comparing 2011 with 2013? Why not 2012 (the year we won the NFC Championship) with 2013? You chose to compare this team with our team two years ago, but not last year?

Then you cherry pick 4th quarter quarterback ratings to make one particular quarterback look really good compared to the other one. Why not 3rd quarter QB ratings? Why not 2nd quarter quarterback ratings? Why not 1st quarter quarterback ratings? Why not quarterback ratings from last year?

It smells very much like another "you know who" thread.
[ Edited by BrianGO on Nov 19, 2013 at 9:17 PM ]
Originally posted by 49FanMan:
Well whether you meant it or not, you essentially said the teams are similar with the only major difference being the QB and concluded Kap must be the primary problem. Your thread boils down to Smith vs. Kap, IMO.


This is a direct quote from your OP: "2. The biggest improvement needed is QB"



Not a very good defense of Kap...LOL


It's about as good a defense of Kap, as a three man rush against 3rd and 12.
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Originally posted by 49FanMan:
Well whether you meant it or not, you essentially said the teams are similar with the only major difference being the QB and concluded Kap must be the primary problem. Your thread boils down to Smith vs. Kap, IMO.


This is a direct quote from your OP: "2. The biggest improvement needed is QB"



Not a very good defense of Kap...LOL


It's about as good a defense of Kap, as a three man rush against 3rd and 12.






Dont get me started on that.
  • MarkD
  • Veteran
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The read option/Pistol was never our main focus on offense. Our offense has been a run first offense and play action off the run. From time to time Roman would mix it up with Pistol formations. The issue is teams do not have to worry about our receivers so the can play man to man on the outside and double up Vernon. So now you have 7 in the box to stop the run assuming teams always double up on Vernon. Alot of the time Vernon stays in to block which tells teams that we are in fact running. We do not have Walker anymore so our two tight end formations won't work anymore. Also Walker was a great blocker and was brought in motion alot on running plays to crack back on d tackle.
We are trying to run the same offense with the new players we have who aren't up to speed yet. Vance McDonald is no Walker. The biggest loss to our offense was actually Walker and not Crabtree. Don't get me wrong Crabtree is very important but Walker had more effect in the run game and that is what we do the most. Everything else in our offense plays off the run.