2013 - Week 11: Thoughts after rewatching the game

I think these receivers have to be run open. CK is more likely to be hurt when the pocket collapses on him than when he is running free and has a chance to dictate how he is taking a hit or to slide or run out of bounds. Not to mention the yardage he picks up, tiring out the DL, slowing down the blitzes. Now just may not be the time to train him in the ways of being a pocket passer.

Originally posted by 808niner4lyphe:
Wow..did anybody watched the TURNING POINT tonight?? At one play, they stopped us in the back field with 10 players. Yes its not a typo, 10 saints players on the field and they stopped us in the back field. They literally was playing goal line defense on us 80 percent of the game. Sorry ass Roman man... no adjustments what so ever man.

Someone posted something about how Gore was in on 47 plays in the game, and out of those plays the vast majority had two TE's, a fullback and one WR.

How the hell are we supposed to have any kind of passing game with that personnel on the field? It worked against the bad teams, but it's certainly easy for a good defense to shut down.

Originally posted by BrianGO:

Originally posted by 808niner4lyphe:
Wow..did anybody watched the TURNING POINT tonight?? At one play, they stopped us in the back field with 10 players. Yes its not a typo, 10 saints players on the field and they stopped us in the back field. They literally was playing goal line defense on us 80 percent of the game. Sorry ass Roman man... no adjustments what so ever man.

Someone posted something about how Gore was in on 47 plays in the game, and out of those plays the vast majority had two TE's, a fullback and one WR.

How the hell are we supposed to have any kind of passing game with that personnel on the field? It worked against the bad teams, but it's certainly easy for a good defense to shut down.

It worked really well last year because those 2 TEs were Vernon Davis and Delanie Walker...and both could get vertical in a hurry. Teams couldn't put LBs on them because it was a mismatch. They would line up all bunched up like that but then you still have Crab, Vernon, and Walker in the pattern. That was a matchup nightmare.

This is why I've been saying all along that the loss of Delanie Walker is HUGE.

When they go to those formations, you most often have Boldin (who can't beat anyone vertically), Vernon (who they won't allow a clean release to), and McDonald (who can't get vertical either).

It worked well last year also b/c nobody knew what we would do or how we would do it and NOBODY (not even our own coaches, admittedly) knew what CK could do. Now there is enough film out there (and now the smoke screen is over) and defenses can simply stop us now with THREE DB's. Are you telling me, we can't beat 3 DB's with VD, McDonald, Boldin, Hunter, Gore and James in the passing game? THAT is 100% on HaRoMan there. We can talk about CK's inabiity to read (disagree fundamentally here) even a second option or personnel all day. Like Marvin said, THIS is who HaRoMan is and always has been. I disagree with their ability to adjust; have less faith (b/c they haven't thus far proven it despite a couple personnel losses). We had ALL off season to combat those losses and we're into week 11. We have just seen way too much evidence and too many "patterns" to think this is more a CK or personnel-thing esp. compared to what the rest of the NFL is doing with far less talent than us. And this is year THREE of the system. This isn't a new coaching staff taking over a new team...95% of the starters are the same players as last year. 2 different QB = same results. IMHO. what more evidence do we need to think that perhaps, the foundation for all our offensive issues is grounded in the type of offense we run (and continue to run into a brick wall)?

Originally posted by Marvin49:
Over the past 2.5 years?

Pittsburg. Chicago. Houston. New York (both). Cincy. Seattle until the last 2 meetings.

SEATTLE:
09/11/11 Alex Smith 15 completions, 124 yd, 0 TD, 0 INT Gore: 22 carries, 59 yds
12/24/11 Alex Smith 14 completions, 179 yd, 0 TD, 0 INT, Gore: 23 carries, 83 yds, 1 TD
10/18/12 Alex Smith 14 completions, 140 yd, 1 TD, 1 INT, Gore: 16 carries, 131 yds.
12/23/12 Kaepernick 17 completions, 244 yd, 1 TD, 1 INT, Gore: 6 carries, 28 yds
09/15/2013 Kaepernick 13 completions, 127 yd, 0 TD, 3 INT Gore: 9 carries, 16 yds.

BENGALS:
9/25/11 Alex Smith 20 completions, 201 yd, 0 TD, 0 INT Gore: 17 carries, 42 yds

PITTSBURGH:
12/19/2011 Alex Smith 18 completions, 187 yd, 1 TD, 0 INT Gore: 18 carries, 65 yds, 1 TD

CHICAGO:
11/19/12 Kaepernick Colin 16 completions, 243 yd, 2 TD. Gore 17 carries, 78 yds

NY JETS
9/23/12 Alex Smith 24 completions, 204 yd, 1 TD, 1 INT Gore: 12 carries, 63 yds

NY GIANTS
10/14/12 Alex Smith 19 completions, 200 yd, 3 INT, Gore: 8 carries for 36 yds.

HOUSTON
10/6/13 Kaepernick 6 completions, 113 yd, 1 TD, 0 INT Gore: 17 carries, 81 yds.

This is what I got so far and in summary no 300 yd passing game by a QB. 1 100 plus rushing game by Gore against top defenses. Coordinator Greg Roman is clearly not up to the challenge against so called good defenses. So maybe it is not Kapernick after all based on these stats produced by our Offense Under Roman?

Originally posted by GORO:

Originally posted by Marvin49:
Over the past 2.5 years?

Pittsburg. Chicago. Houston. New York (both). Cincy. Seattle until the last 2 meetings.

SEATTLE:
09/11/11 Alex Smith 15 completions, 124 yd, 0 TD, 0 INT Gore: 22 carries, 59 yds
12/24/11 Alex Smith 14 completions, 179 yd, 0 TD, 0 INT, Gore: 23 carries, 83 yds, 1 TD
10/18/12 Alex Smith 14 completions, 140 yd, 1 TD, 1 INT, Gore: 16 carries, 131 yds.
12/23/12 Kaepernick 17 completions, 244 yd, 1 TD, 1 INT, Gore: 6 carries, 28 yds
09/15/2013 Kaepernick 13 completions, 127 yd, 0 TD, 3 INT Gore: 9 carries, 16 yds.

BENGALS:
9/25/11 Alex Smith 20 completions, 201 yd, 0 TD, 0 INT Gore: 17 carries, 42 yds

PITTSBURGH:
12/19/2011 Alex Smith 18 completions, 187 yd, 1 TD, 0 INT Gore: 18 carries, 65 yds, 1 TD

CHICAGO:
11/19/12 Kaepernick Colin 16 completions, 243 yd, 2 TD. Gore 17 carries, 78 yds

NY JETS
9/23/12 Alex Smith 24 completions, 204 yd, 1 TD, 1 INT Gore: 12 carries, 63 yds

NY GIANTS
10/14/12 Alex Smith 19 completions, 200 yd, 3 INT, Gore: 8 carries for 36 yds.

HOUSTON
10/6/13 Kaepernick 6 completions, 113 yd, 1 TD, 0 INT Gore: 17 carries, 81 yds.

This is what I got so far and in summary no 300 yd passing game by a QB. 1 100 plus rushing game by Gore against top defenses. Coordinator Greg Roman is clearly not up to the challenge against so called good defenses.

LOL.

Good defenses are good FOR A REASON.

It always cracks me up that people criticisms are that we can't put up huge yards and points against teams that seldom if ever give up big yards or points. That's why they are good.

What they DID do in all two of those games was WIN.

Do you EXPECT great offenses to light up the 49ers and if they don't they suck? Do you say...wow..."that team really sucks", or do you say "damn, we have a good defense". When the Packers, Pats, Lions, and Saints play SF, do their OCs just suck those days?

This offense isn't the Saints. Its not the Packers. Its not the Broncos. It was never intended to be. It seeks to accomplish something different.

Could it be better? Absolutely. Just don't come at me with "we didn't dominate a great defense, the OC sucks". That's bogus.

Originally posted by Marvin49:
LOL.

Good defenses are good FOR A REASON.

It always cracks me up that people criticisms are that we can't put up huge yards and points against teams that seldom if ever give up big yards or points. That's why they are good.

What they DID do in all two of those games was WIN.

Do you EXPECT great offenses to light up the 49ers and if they don't they suck? Do you say...wow..."that team really sucks", or do you say "damn, we have a good defense". When the Packers, Pats, Lions, and Saints play SF, do their OCs just suck those days?

This offense isn't the Saints. Its not the Packers. Its not the Broncos. It was never intended to be. It seeks to accomplish something different.

Could it be better? Absolutely. Just don't come at me with "we didn't dominate a great defense, the OC sucks". That's bogus.

Do you EXPECT great offenses to light up the 49ers and if they don't they suck? Do you say...wow..."that team really sucks", or do you say "damn, we have a good defense". When the Packers, Pats, Lions, and Saints play SF, do their OCs just suck those days?

Those good Offenses have put up 300 yd passing against our stout defense and shows that they are well coached as well. The Stats have shown that Roman will never be able to compete against a good defense. If you remember the 80s or 90s the 49ers usually put up good numbers even against good defenses. Only a few games were a defensive battles, but Roman is not making the grade. If Roman is to be judged on wins, then Flacco is the best QB in the NFL. Stats are clearly showing Roman to be lacking in the passing game.

Marvin, I really like your positive outlook but for the life of me I cannot figure out after all that has happened how you can honestly think that Roman is going to all of a sudden adapt and make use of the personel we have in the most effective manner.

He is who he is. He is not going to change. If he was going to change there have been ample opportunities after crappy performances to change, and yet he does not. I just dont get how you can defend Roman at this point.

Originally posted by BrianGO:
Someone posted something about how Gore was in on 47 plays in the game, and out of those plays the vast majority had two TE's, a fullback and one WR.

How the hell are we supposed to have any kind of passing game with that personnel on the field? It worked against the bad teams, but it's certainly easy for a good defense to shut down.

I've been screaming about this the past two games! We rarely spread the field out with 3 or 4 WR's. I can't believe our wideouts are that bad, that we refuse to put them in the game. I know we're a power running team but damn.. We were in that same personell grouping when Kap nearly threw that pic 6! It looked like he had 1 read to Boldin, forced it in and it got picked off... We need to open up the field.

I believe in the NO game, sometimes we were trying to run Gore up the middle while the Saints were using a 10-men front by bringing their safeties into the box. I have great faith in Gore, but such a play was doomed from the start. We have to be able to make future opponents at least think that we can pass with some success, and back their safeties off, before we can run the ball effectively.

marvin, you take yourself to seriously

Originally posted by Marvin49:
Harbaugh was hired for THIS offense. He was hired for the offense he ran at Stanford. That is what they will continue to run.

Harbaugh is a great coach. Roman is much better than people think. They will adapt. They will also be able to do more of what they did last year when the horses come back.

I see all of this criticism of Roman running a "College Offense". Thats balony. Every offense was at one point a college offense. Even the WCO.

This team is struggling on multiple levels. The QB is struggling when the first read isn't there. He'll improve. The WRs are struggling beating man-to-man coverage. The good ones are coming back. Roman is struggling with ways to scheme the first read open when they can't do it on their own and his QB is struggling getting to the second read. He's struggling getting a run game going against a freakin' 10 man front.

It isn't any one thing. The only way Roman leaves is if he's hired as a HC. If he leaves, the new OC will NOT bring in an all new system and poof...everything is fixed. The new OC is likely already on the 49ers staff and they will work within the system they have now to improve.

Minor disagreement: Harbaugh was hired to win. PERIOD. It so happens that the Stanford program he inherited had been turned around on the demands of the many wealthy Stanford alums who insisted the school start spending money on the football program, and they did. As a result, every bright kid in the nation who was also a big, good football player began to look seriously at the school and many top level HS players began to enroll. Harbaugh came into that program with the offense he had run in San Diego and installed it there. He won. It wasn't WCO, far from it, but he won and that was all that mattered.

So Baalke hires him and again he inherits a very good roster. He promises to install the WCO but has not seemed to get around to doing that as yet. However, nobody really cared as long as he had a solid QB to go with a loaded roster. He won. It doesn't matter that it was a "college offense" or not. It is a very simple offense except for the complexity of the alignments. Last season it fooled a lot of teams but this year those same teams are just sitting back, waiting for all the shifting to cease, and playing the game. HaRo likely will change very little this season. It is too late to make many changes. However, certain basics of the WCO would be very helpful to both the team and Kaepernick. Whether we see any of them appears doubtful. As you said, Harbaugh has his offense and he does not appear the least bit interested in changing it.

Next year I expect Roman to be back. I recognize he has done some very creative things but "creative" does not always work, and that is where we are. If Harbaugh is back, Roman is back unless some other teams wants to make him HC. If that happens, I will not cry. I have been very open in my criticism of him and I won't back off that point unless he shows something significantly different in these final 6 games.

In the meantime, Kaepernick is stuck in a situation that looks very difficult. His confidence is obviously very low and the system does not seem to make it easier for him.

Originally posted by NCommand:
It worked well last year also b/c nobody knew what we would do or how we would do it and NOBODY (not even our own coaches, admittedly) knew what CK could do. Now there is enough film out there (and now the smoke screen is over) and defenses can simply stop us now with THREE DB's. Are you telling me, we can't beat 3 DB's with VD, McDonald, Boldin, Hunter, Gore and James in the passing game? THAT is 100% on HaRoMan there. We can talk about CK's inabiity to read (disagree fundamentally here) even a second option or personnel all day. Like Marvin said, THIS is who HaRoMan is and always has been. I disagree with their ability to adjust; have less faith (b/c they haven't thus far proven it despite a couple personnel losses). We had ALL off season to combat those losses and we're into week 11. We have just seen way too much evidence and too many "patterns" to think this is more a CK or personnel-thing esp. compared to what the rest of the NFL is doing with far less talent than us. And this is year THREE of the system. This isn't a new coaching staff taking over a new team...95% of the starters are the same players as last year. 2 different QB = same results. IMHO. what more evidence do we need to think that perhaps, the foundation for all our offensive issues is grounded in the type of offense we run (and continue to run into a brick wall)?

New Orleans completes passes to 8-10 guys/game on a regular basis and none of those guys are going to the Pro Bowl except Jimmy Graham, and for a good part of this season he was either out or very limited due to foot problems, yet Brees continued to spread the ball around to multiple receivers.

You guys do realize brees has quite a bit more experience in than nfl than kaep right?

When we played the weak sister teams, did HaRo try to get vance involved in the O? Did they try to get Baldwin involved in the O? Did they try to get LMJ involved in the O passing attack? Nope, nope, nope and nope. They blew 5 very good opportunities to have Kap work on his short passing game and to get everyone other than Boldin involved in the passing attack. This is an indictment of coaching failure, both OC and HC. Roman doesn't know any better. Jim Harbaugh should.