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2013 - Week 11: Thoughts after rewatching the game

Originally posted by crabman82:
Originally posted by ninerfan52:
Marvin, we run a 1960's offense 2 TE's 2 RB's and one receiver, tell me how that works today, it's so conservative!

worked fine with brady when they used hernandez and gronk.


This
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by crabman82:
Originally posted by ninerfan52:
Marvin, we run a 1960's offense 2 TE's 2 RB's and one receiver, tell me how that works today, it's so conservative!

worked fine with brady when they used hernandez and gronk.


This

Gronk is really a 250 lb WR in a WCO-based offense.
Works fine when you have an unstoppable tight end and another good one.

Not to mention the best slot receiver in the league.
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Ginn hardly saw the field last year because he was outplayed by Mario Manningham and Randy Moss. They don't play more than 2 WRs because they use so many multi TE formations. That's how they are built and it worked last year because they had 2 TEs who could stretch the field. Delanie Walker had the highest yards per catch on the team and of the 19 passes Kap threw in the air over 20 yards, 7 of them were to Walker.

Your assumption is that Harbaugh/Roman don't know how to create a passing offense and that's why Ginn didn't get on the field. Your entire premise is flawed. The passing O worked just fine when they used their multitalented TEs to stretch the field.

This why the loss of BOTH Crabtree and Walker has been so pivotal and why I'm not sure this issue can be resolved this season.

If anything, Roman can be blamed for not adapting to the lack of those players, but Ginn had his shot here and he failed.

Good take. That third deep threat is the difference between this year and last year's WRs. Just to add to what you said, with the team using 2TE personnel + a FB and power running formations, those WRs are lined up 1 on 1 when the 49ers are in these formations. That puts a premium on route running to gain separation. With 3+WR/spread formations, route combinations where WRs work together to free each other up are more of a possibility. Miller and Vance just aren't good route runners compared to putting more WRs on the field. However, doing so gets away from the identity of the team and the power run threat.

They did go with the spread look often versus NO and Kap did okay, completing lots of short stuff. I can't tell if more could have been had and really not sure what NO did in the 4th quarter that shut Kap and the passing attack down completely. The 1st and 4th quarters were horrible offensively.
Think or I hope things change when Crabs gets the rust off in his games he starts
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by crabman82:
Originally posted by ninerfan52:
Marvin, we run a 1960's offense 2 TE's 2 RB's and one receiver, tell me how that works today, it's so conservative!

worked fine with brady when they used hernandez and gronk.


This

Gronk is really a 250 lb WR in a WCO-based offense.

This. The Patriots never ran a one WR offense. With Gronk and Hernandez they were 2 WR, 2 TE, 1 RB. One of those TE's was always flexed out in the slot or on the outside. So even though it was 2 TE, it was still a spread offense with WCO principles.

I don't know why we're even comparing these two offenses. Our offense doesn't resemble NE's in any way. It's not just the personnel groupings, it's where they are put on the field and how they are used. NE also used the FB very sparingly, often not even carrying one on the roster. They just used a backup TE when one was needed.
[ Edited by SofaKing on Nov 18, 2013 at 10:44 PM ]
from Peter King on that key sack we gave up.

last week it was on Kaep, imo.. you can't take that sack..some how you have to get rid of the ball... this week however, its not like they blitzed..it was too late for Colin.

http://mmqb.si.com/2013/11/18/week-11-the-decisive-moments/

What happened: The Saints were looking to get the ball back to win the game when they only rushed four on this first-down play. But it was far from simple. On the right side of the Saints' line, end Junior Galette and linebacker Keyunta Dawson (playing tackle in the sub package) ran an end-tackle twist or game. The premise is Dawson will basically pick left tackle Joe Staley, and hope that backup guard Adam Snyder (in for starter Mike Iupati) won't recognize or be athletic enough to pick up Galette.











"As a general rule, the offensive line zones twists—meaning they play their area, not the man. Linemen, who have viewed film coming into the game, look for alignment clues that a twist might be coming and are on alert. Perhaps Snyder should have been on the lookout for something since Dawson was not in the normal "three technique" outside shoulder of the guard. Dawson was in four technique—between the guard and tackle—which would seem to be unusual for a first-down play. But the Saints align so many different ways, it might have been hard to tell.

Snyder had to know that if Dawson was aligned so wide, Snyder was going to have to find a way to keep Dawson from picking Staley. But at 31, Snyder is no longer fleet of foot, so he could have been fearful of giving up a quick inside rush. In any event, Dawson compounded the situation by being slow off the line. That left him with no chance to make contact with Dawson—which is a must against twists. The blocker who has the penetrator on a twist has to make contact to flatten him out. Snyder didn't, and the result was what happened. Snyder and Staley were on different blocking levels, which made for an easy pick and allowed the looper, Galette, to quickly close on Kaepernick for a huge sack that set the wheels in motion for the game-winning field goal."
Originally posted by Afrikan:
from Peter King on that key sack we gave up.

last week it was on Kaep, imo.. you can't take that sack..some how you have to get rid of the ball... this week however, its not like they blitzed..it was too late for Colin.

http://mmqb.si.com/2013/11/18/week-11-the-decisive-moments/

What happened: The Saints were looking to get the ball back to win the game when they only rushed four on this first-down play. But it was far from simple. On the right side of the Saints' line, end Junior Galette and linebacker Keyunta Dawson (playing tackle in the sub package) ran an end-tackle twist or game. The premise is Dawson will basically pick left tackle Joe Staley, and hope that backup guard Adam Snyder (in for starter Mike Iupati) won't recognize or be athletic enough to pick up Galette.











"As a general rule, the offensive line zones twists—meaning they play their area, not the man. Linemen, who have viewed film coming into the game, look for alignment clues that a twist might be coming and are on alert. Perhaps Snyder should have been on the lookout for something since Dawson was not in the normal "three technique" outside shoulder of the guard. Dawson was in four technique—between the guard and tackle—which would seem to be unusual for a first-down play. But the Saints align so many different ways, it might have been hard to tell.

Snyder had to know that if Dawson was aligned so wide, Snyder was going to have to find a way to keep Dawson from picking Staley. But at 31, Snyder is no longer fleet of foot, so he could have been fearful of giving up a quick inside rush. In any event, Dawson compounded the situation by being slow off the line. That left him with no chance to make contact with Dawson—which is a must against twists. The blocker who has the penetrator on a twist has to make contact to flatten him out. Snyder didn't, and the result was what happened. Snyder and Staley were on different blocking levels, which made for an easy pick and allowed the looper, Galette, to quickly close on Kaepernick for a huge sack that set the wheels in motion for the game-winning field goal."
Good play by Gallete and bad play by Snyder.In any case Kap still played like crap the whole game.
dude don't quote the whole thing..lol... delete that...we'll be on the next page before you know it.
Originally posted by SofaKing:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by crabman82:
Originally posted by ninerfan52:
Marvin, we run a 1960's offense 2 TE's 2 RB's and one receiver, tell me how that works today, it's so conservative!

worked fine with brady when they used hernandez and gronk.


This

Gronk is really a 250 lb WR in a WCO-based offense.

This. The Patriots never ran a one WR offense. With Gronk and Hernandez they were 2 WR, 2 TE, 1 RB. One of those TE's was always flexed out in the slot or on the outside. So even though it was 2 TE, it was still a spread offense with WCO principles.

I don't know why we're even comparing these two offenses. Our offense doesn't resemble NE's in any way. It's not just the personnel groupings, it's where they are put on the field and how they are used. NE also used the FB very sparingly, often not even carrying one on the roster. They just used a backup TE when one was needed.

I was going to post the same thing but you beat me to it.

Marvin, I enjoy your posts but I think you need to look a lot harder at the offensive scheme we are playing. I agree Kap is struggling, but those (and not you) who keep going on about read progression need to understand we're not running a passing game with an real or significant route trees. There really is no read progression beyond first read and sometimes a second.

1) Pass to Baldwin that he dropped in the endzone and should have been a TD: there was only one place it was going.
2) Back Shoulder throw to Boldin for the TD - same, only one way it was going.
3) TD pass to Vernon, again a designed one receiver (AR) play
4) Deep pass to Baldwin on the sideline that he didn't realise he was getting, same again. I think Baldwin mis-timed this or lost the ball in the lights as suggested.


Kap at this stage is basically being coached and instructed to throw to one designated receiver if the WR is open, or on some cases like the passes to Baldwin to let him go up and try to make a play. If the play breaks down he's being instructed to scramble and try and find someone open.

When the O line fails to provide sufficient pass protection, there's nothing for Kap to do. There is no outlet ball for him on most plays, though Miller seems to be getting this designation on the few where there are, but he's not exactly a threat with ball in hand.
[ Edited by Buchy on Nov 19, 2013 at 1:35 AM ]
The biggest impression I have after the game were Baldwin's diamond earrings. Dude you don't have to catch any passes, you look cool.
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by ClassicNiner:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by ClassicNiner:
Marvin,

Great post, as usual. Sorry to see you taking flak for being nuanced and reasonable. That's not what some people want to hear the day after a second close loss.

Please clear something up for me - is CK smart or stupid? We all agree he has great physical gifts. But he made 2 really dumb plays yesterday, calling a time out when they were used up and running out of bounds near the end of the game. Both these show unawareness of the situation. Also, he doesn't seem to see the rush sometimes, and just overall looks confused. I think you called him smart somewhere in this thread. I am not disagreeing with you, but wonder what you mean by that.

Very few great QB's are stupid.

He's not stupid by any stretch.

The TO was probably because he didn't in that moment realize that 2 had been used on failed reviews. A mistake, no doubt...but one I can kinda give him a pass on. What I can't give a pass on is the guy who aligned incorrectly forcing the entire situation.

Running out of bounds? He was trying to make a play and to protect himself as has been preached to him...but it was a really, really bad decision. No excuse on that one. Poor decision that haunted them later.

He so frequently needs to call TO's, either someone should have reminded him, or he should have noted it himself that he had none left. I know it's a small point. I see him as tremendously gifted, but I don't see a lot of evidence of smart.


No worries.

It was a mistake. That's not in question...but I think he kinda got stuck.

The guy wouldn't line up correctly. He was yelling at him to move and the guy couldn't hear him. In frustration he called timeout...and then ralized they didn't have any.

It's a mistake, no question. I just kinda give him a pass because of the situation.

Also, the mistake is not a huge one. It was a 5-yard delay of game. In the grand scheme of things, it wasn't a big deal. It may be more detrimental to run the play with somebody lined up wrong.
  • GORO
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* Proud of our Defensive Players whom contained the high powered Saints Offense lead by Brees.
** I was happy to see Rogers on Jimmy Graham early on and have always preferred Rogers on a TE then Patrick Willis whom gives up size to opposing TEs.
*** Disappointed in Greg Roman play calling. On many first downs they ran the ball and did not pass out of play action. They did make an attempt to get Baldwin, McDonald involved in the passing game. Where was Mario Manningham?

Overall proud of the team. Only reason it does not hurt is now Harbaugh will have to evaluate his Offensive Coordinator performance. Had the Niners won they would have ignored that once again our passing game is so bad.

As for Kaepernick, I still believe in him and if there was a better passing scheme he would be not last in the league in passing yards. He has an awesome skill set and would look better under better circumstances. Alex Smith watch the Chiefs vs Broncos game, he does not make enough plays.
[ Edited by GORO on Nov 19, 2013 at 6:12 AM ]
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** Adam Snyder in for Iupati has me worried!
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Patriots lost Aaron Hernandez and now use different formations, they do use more multiple WR formations rather than continue to pass out of two TE sets.