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2013 - Week 11: Thoughts after rewatching the game

McDonald looks like he's allergic to making a big play.
Too much reality for Niner Talk!
great write-up

go niners
Originally posted by AMBITION:
As long as we have Harbaugh I think that we're going to sail this ship right eventually. We're 6-4; i'm not jumping ship, yet.

We hung with the Panthers and Saints (both should've won despite awful QB play). This team still has a lot of great players; we just have to weed out some of the scrubs.

Oh really...name one offensive player who has been developed under Harbaugh...every draft pick over the last 3 seasons has been a 'bust'...Harbaugh is not the genius he is portrayed to be...
  • dj43
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 20,155
Originally posted by Marvin49:

3) WRs: OK…as I mentioned before, I think people have a false impression of what the absence of Crabtree, Walker, Moss, Manningham, and even Ginn has meant. It isn't a question of whether those guys are good players. It has to do with what the specific skillset of those players were and how they altered the way defenses responded to them. Boldin has been a great player in his career. What he has NOT been tho at ANY point in his career is fast. He's never stretched the field. In Arizona, they also had Fitz. In Baltimore, they also had Torrey Smith. In SF they've had….yeah. Vernon is that #2 guy. The problem is that he's missed time and that he's often lines up at the end of a line so doesn't always get a clean release. Walker, Moss, Manningham, and Ginn forced defenses to account for them. That creates space. It eliminated double teams. Moreover…if you have a guy pulling over a safety, it forces you to put one man on Crabtree who showed last year an ability to beat man to man coverage and create separation via his route running. Boldin is less able to do so. Is personnel the only reason Kap is struggling? No. Is it a HUGE piece of it? Yes. Is it all simply because Crabtree has been out? No. It's the loss of a number of players on offense and one reason why I'm not all that confident it can be fixed this season. Manningham is showing some signs of life tho. I think WR will be a HUGE focal point this offseason and resigning Crab may have just become priority #1.
I agree that losing those guys has had an impact, however, Drew Brees completed passes to 11 different receivers yesterday. Sean Payton has figured out how to maintain balance in his passing attack without any big stars. HaRo don't seem to be able to put more than 2 WRs on the field at any given time. They just don't seem to have a clue.

Ted Ginn is a classic example. Last year he hardly saw the field except for ST. This year in Carolina, in addition to continuing to be a big time return threat, he has caught 23 passes for an average of 16.8 yards per catch. He brings that "take the top off" threat that allows Stevie Smith and LaFell and others to run underneath. Why was he not used that way last season? Has Ron Rivera suddenly become such an offensive wizard that he can now make Ginn into a legit wide out?

Yes, loss of some players has hurt but history strongly suggests that the greater problem is the limitations of the coaching staff in developing a professional passing game and coaching up WRs to play it.

EDIT: I hate auto correct.
[ Edited by dj43 on Nov 18, 2013 at 7:57 PM ]
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
3) WRs: OK…as I mentioned before, I think people have a false impression of what the absence of Crabtree, Walker, Moss, Manningham, and even Ginn has meant. It isn't a question of whether those guys are good players. It has to do with what the specific skillset of those players were and how they altered the way defenses responded to them. Boldin has been a great player in his career. What he has NOT been tho at ANY point in his career is fast. He's never stretched the field. In Arizona, they also had Fitz. In Baltimore, they also had Torrey Smith. In SF they've had….yeah. Vernon is that #2 guy. The problem is that he's missed time and that he's often lines up at the end of a line so doesn't always get a clean release. Walker, Moss, Manningham, and Ginn forced defenses to account for them. That creates space. It eliminated double teams. Moreover…if you have a guy pulling over a safety, it forces you to put one man on Crabtree who showed last year an ability to beat man to man coverage and create separation via his route running. Boldin is less able to do so. Is personnel the only reason Kap is struggling? No. Is it a HUGE piece of it? Yes. Is it all simply because Crabtree has been out? No. It's the loss of a number of players on offense and one reason why I'm not all that confident it can be fixed this season. Manningham is showing some signs of life tho. I think WR will be a HUGE focal point this offseason and resigning Crab may have just become priority #1.

I agree that losing those guys has had an impact, however, Drew Brees completed passes to 11 different receivers yesterday. Sean Payton has figured out how to maintain balance in his passing attack without any big stars. HaRo don't seem to be able to put more than 2 WRs on the field at any given time. They just don't seem to have a clue.

Ted Ginn is a classic example. Last year he hardly saw the field except for ST. This year in Carolina, in addition to continuing to be a big time return threat, he has caught 23 passes for an average of 16.8 yards per catch. He beings that "take the top off" threat that allows Stevie Smith and LaFell and others to run underneath. Why was he not used that way last season? Has Ron Rivera suddenly become such an offensive wizard that he can now make Ginn into a legit wide out?

Yes, loss of some players has hurt but history strongly suggests that the greater problem is the limitations of the coaching staff in developing a professional passing game and coaching up WRs to play it.

Nice post. We need to upgrade our high school & college level passing game to compete with these defenses who are stacking up to blitz and play down hill all game against us. It is sickening to watch week after week.
Originally posted by SofaKing:
Originally posted by WINiner:
Kap wasn't nearly as bad as many are making him out to be, like the OP said, a few perfectly placed balls caught and not only do we win, but the Kap hate is an afterthought.

Roman on the other hand is awful, and I been saying that since 2011.

Agree. Our passing concepts are awful. We're using simple algebra while the rest of the league is mastering calculus.

The pistol opened things up for us momentarily. But defenses caught onto it after an off-season of preparation. Couple that with a complete downgrade from last year in regards to our receiving options., and a raw QB struggling to carry the burden of all this b******t. It's gotten ugly.

I still see it as a scheme problem as well. Roman/Harbaugh offense is too dependent on power...which only works if you can out muscle other teams consistently. The original WCO was dependent on out thinking/moving the opponents. Very mobile linemen, using the entire field, never telegraphing your play, countering the defense. I'm not sure the current playbook is broad enough to counter clever defenses.

Of course, the OP mentioned continuity, which is a huge issue. Many of the current players are just getting acquainted with the playbook and may be very limited in what they know well enough to excel in performance.

Another thing that I both admire and fear--Baalke's method of keeping the Cap under control. The turnover of players is devastating right now. It may be necessary but there are so many holes created each year and we just have to hope the new guys can be as good as Reid has been...but they can't hit on every position.

Under rated players who had huge impacts in various ways: One out of the four were replaced adequately.

Ginn--a threat to go the distance on every return. Limited as a WR but could stretch the field. Anyone fear Dixon returning kicks?
Walker--mediocre hands but very instrumental as a blocker and route runner...smart player.
Goldson--heady enforcer but is well replaced by Reid.
Costanzo--was in on almost ever ST tackle in 2011...his leaving coincided with a decline on ST last year.

The WR position in general--not one key WR has consistently started the past three years. Although, in fairness, only Crabtree and Boldin are legitimate WRs who have played consistently well anywhere. I would add Manningham but he has not been durable enough to add to the list.
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Marvin49:

3) WRs: OK…as I mentioned before, I think people have a false impression of what the absence of Crabtree, Walker, Moss, Manningham, and even Ginn has meant. It isn't a question of whether those guys are good players. It has to do with what the specific skillset of those players were and how they altered the way defenses responded to them. Boldin has been a great player in his career. What he has NOT been tho at ANY point in his career is fast. He's never stretched the field. In Arizona, they also had Fitz. In Baltimore, they also had Torrey Smith. In SF they've had….yeah. Vernon is that #2 guy. The problem is that he's missed time and that he's often lines up at the end of a line so doesn't always get a clean release. Walker, Moss, Manningham, and Ginn forced defenses to account for them. That creates space. It eliminated double teams. Moreover…if you have a guy pulling over a safety, it forces you to put one man on Crabtree who showed last year an ability to beat man to man coverage and create separation via his route running. Boldin is less able to do so. Is personnel the only reason Kap is struggling? No. Is it a HUGE piece of it? Yes. Is it all simply because Crabtree has been out? No. It's the loss of a number of players on offense and one reason why I'm not all that confident it can be fixed this season. Manningham is showing some signs of life tho. I think WR will be a HUGE focal point this offseason and resigning Crab may have just become priority #1.
I agree that losing those guys has had an impact, however, Drew Brees completed passes to 11 different receivers yesterday. Sean Payton has figured out how to maintain balance in his passing attack without any big stars. HaRo don't seem to be able to put more than 2 WRs on the field at any given time. They just don't seem to have a clue.

Ted Ginn is a classic example. Last year he hardly saw the field except for ST. This year in Carolina, in addition to continuing to be a big time return threat, he has caught 23 passes for an average of 16.8 yards per catch. He beings that "take the top off" threat that allows Stevie Smith and LaFell and others to run underneath. Why was he not used that way last season? Has Ron Rivera suddenly become such an offensive wizard that he can now make Ginn into a legit wide out?

Yes, loss of some players has hurt but history strongly suggests that the greater problem is the limitations of the coaching staff in developing a professional passing game and coaching up WRs to play it.


Ginn hardly saw the field last year because he was outplayed by Mario Manningham and Randy Moss. They don't play more than 2 WRs because they use so many multi TE formations. That's how they are built and it worked last year because they had 2 TEs who could stretch the field. Delanie Walker had the highest yards per catch on the team and of the 19 passes Kap threw in the air over 20 yards, 7 of them were to Walker.

Your assumption is that Harbaugh/Roman don't know how to create a passing offense and that's why Ginn didn't get on the field. Your entire premise is flawed. The passing O worked just fine when they used their multitalented TEs to stretch the field.

This why the loss of BOTH Crabtree and Walker has been so pivotal and why I'm not sure this issue can be resolved this season.

If anything, Roman can be blamed for not adapting to the lack of those players, but Ginn had his shot here and he failed.
[ Edited by Marvin49 on Nov 18, 2013 at 7:55 PM ]
  • dj43
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 20,155
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Marvin49:

3) WRs: OK…as I mentioned before, I think people have a false impression of what the absence of Crabtree, Walker, Moss, Manningham, and even Ginn has meant. It isn't a question of whether those guys are good players. It has to do with what the specific skillset of those players were and how they altered the way defenses responded to them. Boldin has been a great player in his career. What he has NOT been tho at ANY point in his career is fast. He's never stretched the field. In Arizona, they also had Fitz. In Baltimore, they also had Torrey Smith. In SF they've had….yeah. Vernon is that #2 guy. The problem is that he's missed time and that he's often lines up at the end of a line so doesn't always get a clean release. Walker, Moss, Manningham, and Ginn forced defenses to account for them. That creates space. It eliminated double teams. Moreover…if you have a guy pulling over a safety, it forces you to put one man on Crabtree who showed last year an ability to beat man to man coverage and create separation via his route running. Boldin is less able to do so. Is personnel the only reason Kap is struggling? No. Is it a HUGE piece of it? Yes. Is it all simply because Crabtree has been out? No. It's the loss of a number of players on offense and one reason why I'm not all that confident it can be fixed this season. Manningham is showing some signs of life tho. I think WR will be a HUGE focal point this offseason and resigning Crab may have just become priority #1.
I agree that losing those guys has had an impact, however, Drew Brees completed passes to 11 different receivers yesterday. Sean Payton has figured out how to maintain balance in his passing attack without any big stars. HaRo don't seem to be able to put more than 2 WRs on the field at any given time. They just don't seem to have a clue.

Ted Ginn is a classic example. Last year he hardly saw the field except for ST. This year in Carolina, in addition to continuing to be a big time return threat, he has caught 23 passes for an average of 16.8 yards per catch. He beings that "take the top off" threat that allows Stevie Smith and LaFell and others to run underneath. Why was he not used that way last season? Has Ron Rivera suddenly become such an offensive wizard that he can now make Ginn into a legit wide out?

Yes, loss of some players has hurt but history strongly suggests that the greater problem is the limitations of the coaching staff in developing a professional passing game and coaching up WRs to play it.


Ginn hardly saw the field last year because he was outplayed by Mario Manningham and Randy Moss. They don't play more than 2 WRs because they use so many multi TE formations. That's how they are built and it worked last year because they had 2 TEs who could stretch the field. Delanie Walker had the highest yards per catch on the team and of the 19 passes Kap threw in the air over 20 yards, 7 of them were to Walker.

Your assumption is that Harbaugh/Roman don't know how to create a passing offense and that's why Ginn didn't get on the field. Your entire premise is flawed. The passing O worked just fine when they used their multitalented TEs to stretch the field.

This why the loss of BOTH Crabtree and Walker has been so pivotal and why I'm not sure this issue can be resolved this season.

If anything, Roman can be blamed for not adapting to the lack of those players, but Ginn had his shot here and he failed.

It is over-stating it to say that Ginn failed. He was given very few chances on offense, mostly because Harbaugh preferred Moss as a decoy. That was over-rated IMO, but that is another discussion.

You are correct in saying that HaRo preferred TEs that could compliment the power running game. Losing Walker hurt but they felt McDonald could fill the need yet they rarely use him in the route tree.

My premise is that HaRo don't know how to use the talent they have. Your bolded agrees with my premise: HaRo have players that could be used more effectively but they don't seem to know how to do it. If New Orleans has 11 DIFFERENT receivers on the team that are good enough to catch a pass in the same game (yesterday), I do not accept the fact that no one other than Boldin or Davis are good enough to be useful in the offense.
[ Edited by dj43 on Nov 18, 2013 at 9:27 PM ]
Originally posted by dj43:
It is over-stating it to say that Ginn failed. He was given very few chances on offense, mostly because Harbaugh preferred Moss as a decoy. That was over-rated IMO, but that is another discussion.

You are correct in saying that HaRo preferred TEs that could compliment the power running game. Losing Walker hurt but they felt McDonald could fill the need yet they rarely use him in the route tree.

My premise is that HaRo don't know how to use the talent they have. Your bolded agrees with my premise: HaRo have players that could be used more effectively but they don't seem to know how to do it. If New Orleans has 11 DIFFERENT receivers on the team that are good enough to catch a pass in the same game (yesterday), I do not accept the fact that no one other than Boldin or Davis are good enough to be useful in the offense.

Totally agree...Why fire Ginn and keep Williams? Ginn at least had good returns...Roman and/or Harbaugh have not developed ANY offensive players since they have been here. Gore, Vernon, Crabby, Boldin, etc were all good before their A***s blew into town...btw, Ted Ginn just WON THE GAME for Carolina...we cannot develop anybody...
Originally posted by Bobbi9698:
Originally posted by dj43:
It is over-stating it to say that Ginn failed. He was given very few chances on offense, mostly because Harbaugh preferred Moss as a decoy. That was over-rated IMO, but that is another discussion.

You are correct in saying that HaRo preferred TEs that could compliment the power running game. Losing Walker hurt but they felt McDonald could fill the need yet they rarely use him in the route tree.

My premise is that HaRo don't know how to use the talent they have. Your bolded agrees with my premise: HaRo have players that could be used more effectively but they don't seem to know how to do it. If New Orleans has 11 DIFFERENT receivers on the team that are good enough to catch a pass in the same game (yesterday), I do not accept the fact that no one other than Boldin or Davis are good enough to be useful in the offense.

Totally agree...Why fire Ginn and keep Williams? Ginn at least had good returns...Roman and/or Harbaugh have not developed ANY offensive players since they have been here. Gore, Vernon, Crabby, Boldin, etc were all good before their A***s blew into town...btw, Ted Ginn just WON THE GAME for Carolina...we cannot develop anybody...


Who fired Ginn? His contract expired. Williams was still under contract. Cheap.

Ginn would still be on the team if he were under contract.
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Who fired Ginn? His contract expired. Williams was still under contract. Cheap.

Ginn would still be on the team if he were under contract.

Ok...did Ginn win any games for us while he was here? The point is that this coaching crew does not do the best with what they have. One reason why Russell Wilson looks good while really isn't is that his receivers have been coached to catch whatever is thrown up there and fight for the ball...you don't see that from our young players....
I'm not one who has given up on Kaep, however he relies too much on his favorite receivers. One can give the excuse that other than Crabtree, Davis and Boldin ... all the other are not very good.

But one can also make the argument that Drew Brees threw to 11 different receivers! Surely, they're not all that good!

The bottom line is that Kaep needs to find that OPEN receiver whoever they may be and KEEP feeding him the ball. Sure, he'll get some drops but it's better than trying to WAIT and see if his initial target gets open. I'll bet that for every drop the other receivers make, they'll also make a few catches ...MORE than they drop.

NO he's not the only one to blame because I can see that they're trying to turn him into a pocket passer ... and that's NOT his strength. He's better when he's moving around. Maybe they're trying to keep him from getting hurt, but the problem is: The 49er's front line are basically RUN blockers, not PASS blockers as has been proven by both the Panthers and the Saints. So therefore, he becomes a stationary target!

JMO
[ Edited by Kauaiguy on Nov 18, 2013 at 8:52 PM ]
Originally posted by Bobbi9698:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Who fired Ginn? His contract expired. Williams was still under contract. Cheap.

Ginn would still be on the team if he were under contract.

Ok...did Ginn win any games for us while he was here? The point is that this coaching crew does not do the best with what they have. One reason why Russell Wilson looks good while really isn't is that his receivers have been coached to catch whatever is thrown up there and fight for the ball...you don't see that from our young players....

Yes
Originally posted by Bobbi9698:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Who fired Ginn? His contract expired. Williams was still under contract. Cheap.

Ginn would still be on the team if he were under contract.

Ok...did Ginn win any games for us while he was here? The point is that this coaching crew does not do the best with what they have. One reason why Russell Wilson looks good while really isn't is that his receivers have been coached to catch whatever is thrown up there and fight for the ball...you don't see that from our young players....


...and my point is that he wasn't on the field last year because he wasn't as good as the #2 and #3 WRs nor the #2 TE...all of which are no longer on the roster either or just returned from injury.

If Ginn WERE still on the roster then he'd have already gotten his shot over Baldwin.
[ Edited by Marvin49 on Nov 18, 2013 at 8:57 PM ]