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2013 - Week 10: Thoughts after rewatching the game

Originally posted by Imfasterthanur:
Kaepernick, hands down! Especially since he's user controlled and not handcuffed by Greg Roman....


Cam seemed comfortable in the pocket, even though his day was only 2 or 3 completions better than Kaep. He was also under as much pressure. I'm looking at the drop back, setting the feet in the pocket and viewing the entire field. Kaep seems to, by instinct, want to drop back in a read option from a pistol formation. To me that is when he is most comfortable. If he has to look at more than one read he hesitates and starts to scramble. Most times when he's sacked he's by the defender but the defender trips him up with an ankle tackle. The excuses of waiting for receivers to come back or Romans' play calling may put him out of a job. Using Frank as a safety valve would work, imo.
  • Axl49
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Originally posted by Jersey9er:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by sdcindy:
My problem with Kap is that he seems to be regressing (and showing the career stats don't show that). In fact, he barely looks like the same guy as last year. He just appears to be indecisive. And we can't just blame the WR's. Wilson and Luck seem to be able to throw to no-name receivers when their top receivers are out with injuries (along with Brady, Brees, etc). The difference is that they throw their receivers open, something Kap doesn't seem to do. They also seem to be more comfortable going to their 2nd, 3rd, even 4th choice than Kap does. In fact I am now questioning whether Kap is the right quarterback to lead the 49ers. Sigh.

Relax.

Kap is was RAW as hell coming out of college. He was considered a project. He wasn't supposed to be ready to play yet.

Kaps number have dived for several reasons and his targets are a HUGE reason why. Not the only one, but a very big one. Kap will be fine. Every single game he plays he's learning. Every mistake teaches a lesson. Most QBs don't hit the scene the way Kap did last year. He is capable of being that guy. Its in there. He just needs to figure out what to do when he's not getting a lot of help. Go look at Tom Brady's number this year.

People like to dismiss it, but don't think the receivers aren't a he part of the problem.

You can't "throw open" every receiver. You especially can't expect that from a guy this early in his career. All the great QBs in the NFL had really bad games early on.

Whats up Marv, I have to say I agree with you to a certain degree, especially the bolded. after you said Relax. Now with that one sentence right there. So Raw, considered a project and not ready to play yet. This all goes against the QB decision last season. I know for a fact that Harbs didnt make the switch for a better QB, just to see him go thru growing pains, and have our record affected by it. If that is the case, then that means we considered this a try out year. I cant see us after we were led to 6-2, and then he took the reigns, helped us get to the playoffs, and nearly helped us fight back to win the SB, and now he needs time to get everything together.

He will have his growing pains, but J. Smith, F. Gore, and a few other vets are getting old. As Justin Smith said last year, that window of being a contender or making a name for yourself is closing as the years and seasons go by. I mean who would of thought that Seattle would be leading the division.

Overall, I'm with most that come on, dont throw the towel away on Kaep just yet, i mean he still hasnt even had a full season. But I also dont think, the switch at QB was made to go through a finding your way in the NFL type of mentality. Harbs and Co believed that Kaep would continue the progress he had after the GB game, not what we have now. But it was telling when Harbs said out of his mouth, "We will dial back the playbook for Kaep", and he said that after our second loss.

So coming out and saying it's not the playcalling it's the execution. Players saying it's the execution, fans seeing at times its the execution, then shortening the playbook. He probably is still doing his learning curve thing. I just hope it all gets fixed soon, because to be that team, that we are capable of being, we need a QB that just knows how to get it done. Don't mean he's gonna kill every game, just know that the QB will also be one of the highlights for the O, and not just the running game.

Exactly. Why would you sit the qb who ready to win now( before this becomes an Alex hate or love fest im just pointing out the obvious he is 9-0 at the moment) for someone who is RAW and is a project. Its all about winning now not later. Gore doesnt have much time left Smith either and who knows if crabs returns or not. If he doesnt return what does that mean for this team going foward if Kap cant move the ball without him.He can have ok or bad games where he throws ints or what not but he has to move the ball in return. We all hated every qb after Garcia for not being able to pass the ball efficiently. Kap is not doing it efficiently right now and its obvious and teams know this.
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Thanks for the summary Marvin.

I have my issues with Kap but they pale in comparison to the issues I have with Roman and ... I guess Harbaugh at this point.

Why do we take offensive players high in the draft when we ultimately won't use them? We're just working McDonald into the passing game? LMJ with awesome talent is a healthy scratch for most of the season thus far? Baldwin not playing despite coming from a team where he was able to contribute something? I guess I have a huge problem with a team who looks good on draft day and on Sundays have a problem with incorporating those same players into its offense. Is it too much to ask to have both Hunter and Gore or LMJ and Gore on the field at the same time? What is most concerning to me is that after the rash of injuries we had at WR, it seemed as if we just decided to weather the storm, not be creative with what we had, not even coach creativity and just wait until everyone was healthy at once. I have 2 second rounders on this team who haven't really done anything. Are they busts? Sure didn't seem so when given more than 1 opportunity here and there. I thought this team was on an uptrend with development of players. It would seem that the defense is lightyears ahead of offensive talent development and you know that finger is starting to point at someone .......



Originally posted by NinerGM:
Thanks for the summary Marvin.

I have my issues with Kap but they pale in comparison to the issues I have with Roman and ... I guess Harbaugh at this point.

Why do we take offensive players high in the draft when we ultimately won't use them? We're just working McDonald into the passing game? LMJ with awesome talent is a healthy scratch for most of the season thus far? Baldwin not playing despite coming from a team where he was able to contribute something? I guess I have a huge problem with a team who looks good on draft day and on Sundays have a problem with incorporating those same players into its offense. Is it too much to ask to have both Hunter and Gore or LMJ and Gore on the field at the same time? What is most concerning to me is that after the rash of injuries we had at WR, it seemed as if we just decided to weather the storm, not be creative with what we had, not even coach creativity and just wait until everyone was healthy at once. I have 2 second rounders on this team who haven't really done anything. Are they busts? Sure didn't seem so when given more than 1 opportunity here and there. I thought this team was on an uptrend with development of players. It would seem that the defense is lightyears ahead of offensive talent development and you know that finger is starting to point at someone .......

Has anyone noticed how different player development is on defense versus offense. Consider the development of people like Ian Williams, Eric Reid, Aldon Smith, Wilhoite, Stuper, Jerod Eddie, etc. They are contributing and many were UFA's or low round picks. Now look at the offense. AJ Jenkins, LMJ, McDonald, etc. Pretty glaring difference in production output versus quality of material available. Something is off in player development. Consider Fangio's experience compared to Roman. Fangio keeps it moving, always strong backups. Now that's all about player development. Consider Ted Ginn who languished here and now he's producing in Carolina.
[ Edited by barrymartin on Nov 11, 2013 at 7:09 PM ]
Originally posted by QBguru:
Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Originally posted by Imfasterthanur:
Haha. While I wasn't a fan of Greg Roman yesterday, ironically, this was actually a good play-call.

Since the fullback typically dictates the direction of a run, most linebackers shed the FB, rendering him open if the play-action is deceptive enough.

Yeah, that was a few weeks ago, Carolina jumped all over the attempted screen pass to Miller. It just continues a pattern of this team beating a dead horse.

This. Teams realize Miller is the number three option in this offense. I do believe Kaep needs to give his other receivers the chance to make a play. Other receivers not named Kyle Williams that is. The Vance McDonalds, the Baldwins, etc. Not just in this game. And I don't want to hear about McDonald's one dropped pass. That was HUGE and definitely would've effected the outcome of the game, however as a QB, Kaep has to learn he has to continue to go to those guys.

Will we get better? Probably so as our weapons come back. However at this stage of his career, Kaep is a lot more dependent on his receivers, protection, and the OC than we would like. Which means we are going to have to endure some serious growing pains while this team is in the midst of trying to win a Super Bowl.

At this point, get Williams involved. IDC. Get Baldwin involved. Get Hunter or James involved. Spread it out with 4 WR sets. It cannot be that hard to draw up 2-3 plays a game for EACH secondary WR or RB . IF they spread to ball out to each guy , RoBaugh would see how much the passing attack would open up. Magically, teams would be forced to account for ALL eligible Receivers.

Kaep has been doo doo, but Roman has been dog s***.

We need to make him spend some shower time with coach Sandusky.

I hope he gets his act together because if not, we might not even get into the playoffs. That would be a shame considering we are the most talented team in the NFL.

There's a total integrated offensive snaggle going on here that is negatively synergistic. It's all the above, Harbaugh, Roman, Kapernick, the Oline, the WR. That's why we're having such a tough time figuring this all out. It's a weird combo of all the above in which the worst tendencies and weakness of all involved seem to be feeding off each other in a way that none of us fully understand.
  • LVJay
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Originally posted by ElephantHaley:
I blame 3 guys for the 49ers passing offense...

1. Harbaugh
2. Kaeper*rick
3. Roman

The three losses too...
Originally posted by barrymartin:
Has anyone noticed how different player development is on defense versus offense. Consider the development of people like Ian Williams, Eric Reid, Aldon Smith, Wilhoite, Stuper, Jerod Eddie, etc. They are contributing and many were UFA's or low round picks. Now look at the offense. AJ Jenkins, LMJ, McDonald, etc. Pretty glaring difference in production output versus quality of material available. Something is off in player development. Consider Fangio's experience compared to Roman. Fangio keeps it moving, always strong backups. Now that's all about player development. Consider Ted Ginn who languished here and now he's producing in Carolina.

Because the defensive coaches are outstanding and the offensives coaches are mostly lousy. Seriously, John Morton, Reggie Davis, Ronald Curry, these guys are around because of familiarity and not because they've done anything exceptional in their careers. Even the OL coaches have been disappointing to me as the OL continually has the exact same struggles and issues. There should have been a red flag on Morton from the get-go for clamoring for the 49ers to draft Ronald Johnson who turned out to be a bust.
[ Edited by Phoenix49ers on Nov 11, 2013 at 7:18 PM ]
  • Axl49
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Originally posted by LVJay:
Originally posted by ElephantHaley:
I blame 3 guys for the 49ers passing offense...

1. Harbaugh
2. Kaeper*rick
3. Roman

The three losses too...

I agree with harbaugh I love the guy but come on dude he refuses to change almost as much as roman. If it aint broke dont fix it (run game) and the broken needs to be fixed and or adjusted at half time and we dont ever adjust what we need to.
Originally posted by Imfasterthanur:
Originally posted by Jakemall:
Originally posted by Imfasterthanur:
Originally posted by Afrikan:
Originally posted by Imfasterthanur:
Originally posted by Afrikan:
Originally posted by Imfasterthanur:
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Originally posted by Imfasterthanur:
Haha. While I wasn't a fan of Greg Roman yesterday, ironically, this was actually a good play-call.

Since the fullback typically dictates the direction of a run, most linebackers shed the FB, rendering him open if the play-action is deceptive enough.

Yeah, that was a few weeks ago, Carolina jumped all over the attempted screen pass to Miller. It just continues a pattern of this team beating a dead horse.

Oh, you're referring to the screen pass -- in that case, I agree. But I was referring to our first-series on the opening drive, where we faked it to Gore and Bruce Miller peeled off his lead-block for a big gain.

That's pretty much the ONLY time we need to see Miller as the primary target haha

but then we tried it when we were backed up against the goal line...and the Panthers were all over it.

Of course he was covered, with Vernon Davis out with a concussion at that point -- replaced by a rookie -- along with the worse receiving corps in the league, who is left to cover? Kyle Williams? a double-teamed Anquan Boldin? A rusty Mario Manningham?

No good defense will bite on a play-action when they already know we abandoned the run (i.e., Frank Gore with 4 carries in the second-half).

so you don't call that play then...that is my point. But again, imo, they were all over it because they recognized it instantly.

or how about spread them all out...and draw up the middle or Kap audibles to a quick pass to a slot person if they don't respect getting spread out...or a mismatch with WR vs LB.

That makes sense on paper, but the issue is, we have NO ONE (assuming Vernon Davis is hurt) that is a deep threat. Without that. All the defense has to do is play a single high safety, man-to-man-across the board, and contain the pocket.

Defenses would being daring us to throw deep and that wouldn't play in our favor.

I hate to admit it, but our personnel at the moment simply is not good enough to dominate the air through spread formations.

Who is Manningham for $300, Alex?

lol. I personally would enjoy that, but being that it was his Manningham's first experience under actual game conditions since last December, I can see the hesitance from Kap if the timing wasn't quite there yet between the two.
We ditched the run with Gore just like in the Indy Game and it came back to bite us.
Originally posted by leakyfausett:
Originally posted by Imfasterthanur:
Originally posted by Jakemall:
Originally posted by Imfasterthanur:
Originally posted by Afrikan:
Originally posted by Imfasterthanur:
Originally posted by Afrikan:
Originally posted by Imfasterthanur:
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Originally posted by Imfasterthanur:
Haha. While I wasn't a fan of Greg Roman yesterday, ironically, this was actually a good play-call.

Since the fullback typically dictates the direction of a run, most linebackers shed the FB, rendering him open if the play-action is deceptive enough.

Yeah, that was a few weeks ago, Carolina jumped all over the attempted screen pass to Miller. It just continues a pattern of this team beating a dead horse.

Oh, you're referring to the screen pass -- in that case, I agree. But I was referring to our first-series on the opening drive, where we faked it to Gore and Bruce Miller peeled off his lead-block for a big gain.

That's pretty much the ONLY time we need to see Miller as the primary target haha

but then we tried it when we were backed up against the goal line...and the Panthers were all over it.

Of course he was covered, with Vernon Davis out with a concussion at that point -- replaced by a rookie -- along with the worse receiving corps in the league, who is left to cover? Kyle Williams? a double-teamed Anquan Boldin? A rusty Mario Manningham?

No good defense will bite on a play-action when they already know we abandoned the run (i.e., Frank Gore with 4 carries in the second-half).

so you don't call that play then...that is my point. But again, imo, they were all over it because they recognized it instantly.

or how about spread them all out...and draw up the middle or Kap audibles to a quick pass to a slot person if they don't respect getting spread out...or a mismatch with WR vs LB.

That makes sense on paper, but the issue is, we have NO ONE (assuming Vernon Davis is hurt) that is a deep threat. Without that. All the defense has to do is play a single high safety, man-to-man-across the board, and contain the pocket.

Defenses would being daring us to throw deep and that wouldn't play in our favor.

I hate to admit it, but our personnel at the moment simply is not good enough to dominate the air through spread formations.

Who is Manningham for $300, Alex?

lol. I personally would enjoy that, but being that it was his Manningham's first experience under actual game conditions since last December, I can see the hesitance from Kap if the timing wasn't quite there yet between the two.
We ditched the run with Gore just like in the Indy Game and it came back to bite us.

THAT was the biggest issue for me. Seems like Roman just does NOT learn.
  • LVJay
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Originally posted by Axl49:
Originally posted by LVJay:
Originally posted by ElephantHaley:
I blame 3 guys for the 49ers passing offense...

1. Harbaugh
2. Kaeper*rick
3. Roman

The three losses too...

I agree with harbaugh I love the guy but come on dude he refuses to change almost as much as roman. If it aint broke dont fix it (run game) and the broken needs to be fixed and or adjusted at half time and we dont ever adjust what we need to.

A mule once told Harbaugh, "damn, you're stubborn, aren't ya!"
Originally posted by Axl49:
Exactly. Why would you sit the qb who ready to win now( before this becomes an Alex hate or love fest im just pointing out the obvious he is 9-0 at the moment) for someone who is RAW and is a project. Its all about winning now not later. Gore doesnt have much time left Smith either and who knows if crabs returns or not. If he doesnt return what does that mean for this team going foward if Kap cant move the ball without him.He can have ok or bad games where he throws ints or what not but he has to move the ball in return. We all hated every qb after Garcia for not being able to pass the ball efficiently. Kap is not doing it efficiently right now and its obvious and teams know this.

Like Marvin said, Aaron Rodgers sat behind Brett Farve for 4 years. Harbaugh and Baalke decided to give Kaepernick the ball after 1.5 years.

Clearly Kaep isn't ready to throw to no name receivers. With Bolden blanketed by the Panther D, how many incomplete passes were thrown to McDonald, Baldwin, Hunter, or James in the Panther game?

The only bright spots were the throws over the middle to Gore, (haven't seen many of those this season), and the fact that Bruce Miller is the third ranked receiver. When you have an abundance of shifty RBs who can make people miss in space, and your 1 and 2 WRs are injured, wouldn't it make sense to design pass plays to your running backs, even playing Hunter and James on the same play in a spread look if necessary?

And how about tall, long strider Jonathan Baldwin? In the second half of the Panther game, Steve Smith caught at least 4 deep outs in which he came back to the first down marker after breaking off a deeper route. With Baldwin's size and Kaep's arm strength, Kaep should be throwing him deep outs up high where Baldwin is the only one that can catch the ball. Did you see that route? Did you see any balls thrown Baldwin's way? Did you see Baldwin in the game?

Similarly, Vance McDonald has been used primarily as a blocker in the power running game. He would have had that seam catch, but the Panthers ILB made a great play to break it up. Other than that, how many short passes was McDonald the primary receiver? How many drag routes over the middle? Remember, a TE is a QB's best friend, and with the last ranked passing attack, Kaep could sure use one. I would imagine delay routes in which McDonald blocks for a beat than runs a route would have been open all day. With Vernon out of the game and the Panthers coming off the edge, why don't we run those routes with McDonald being the primary receiver? With Crabtree on injured reserve, and the Panthers blanketing Bolden, why not make McDonald the hot receiver, letting Kaep look off Bolden to give McDonald time to slip off his block?

Contrast McDonald's use to how the Saints brought Jimmy Graham in as a rookie. They featured him as a receiver, and hoped his blocking would improve. But we don't play rookies if we can help it cause rookies make mistakes. And our coaches and GM are very, very conservative in their play calling.

The Saints, who take many more chances than the 49ers, on defense with blitzes and on offense with the highest ranked passing attack, are a 2 point favourite on Sunday.

In a couple of years, Kaep may be a complete enough QB to throw to any no name receiver on the field. But this year, with the last rated passing game in the NFL, receivers he isn't comfortable throwing to, and conservative play calling, we won't be going back to the SB.

Too bad for "The Cowboy" and Frank Gore, they won't be getting a ring this year, and they don't have many left.
Marvin #10. "Kap should be able to read a box 8 and throw from it but couldn't find a receiver". Well, in that case he has to throw the ball in under 2-3 seconds, or a 2-3 step drop. Even if play called for a seven step drop. In other words, snap it and sling it. Problem? Unnhh, kap doesn't do short passes unless they are 89 mph, or he misses the receiver by 5 feet on a 6 yd pass. Sure roman screwed up on the play call and JH approved it. But kap sees 8 guys coming, he calls check off(in huddle) of look for ball the moment you leave the LOS. But kap can't do that. Coaches are screwed, kap is screwed, we are screwed.
Originally posted by ElephantHaley:
I blame 3 guys for the 49ers passing offense...

1. Harbaugh
2. Kaeper*rick
3. Roman

Honorable mention: Vernon Davis' hamstring/Concussion.
Originally posted by Imfasterthanur:
Originally posted by leakyfausett:
Originally posted by Imfasterthanur:
Originally posted by Jakemall:
Originally posted by Imfasterthanur:
Originally posted by Afrikan:
Originally posted by Imfasterthanur:
Originally posted by Afrikan:
Originally posted by Imfasterthanur:
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Originally posted by Imfasterthanur:
Haha. While I wasn't a fan of Greg Roman yesterday, ironically, this was actually a good play-call.

Since the fullback typically dictates the direction of a run, most linebackers shed the FB, rendering him open if the play-action is deceptive enough.

Yeah, that was a few weeks ago, Carolina jumped all over the attempted screen pass to Miller. It just continues a pattern of this team beating a dead horse.

Oh, you're referring to the screen pass -- in that case, I agree. But I was referring to our first-series on the opening drive, where we faked it to Gore and Bruce Miller peeled off his lead-block for a big gain.

That's pretty much the ONLY time we need to see Miller as the primary target haha

but then we tried it when we were backed up against the goal line...and the Panthers were all over it.

Of course he was covered, with Vernon Davis out with a concussion at that point -- replaced by a rookie -- along with the worse receiving corps in the league, who is left to cover? Kyle Williams? a double-teamed Anquan Boldin? A rusty Mario Manningham?

No good defense will bite on a play-action when they already know we abandoned the run (i.e., Frank Gore with 4 carries in the second-half).

so you don't call that play then...that is my point. But again, imo, they were all over it because they recognized it instantly.

or how about spread them all out...and draw up the middle or Kap audibles to a quick pass to a slot person if they don't respect getting spread out...or a mismatch with WR vs LB.

That makes sense on paper, but the issue is, we have NO ONE (assuming Vernon Davis is hurt) that is a deep threat. Without that. All the defense has to do is play a single high safety, man-to-man-across the board, and contain the pocket.

Defenses would being daring us to throw deep and that wouldn't play in our favor.

I hate to admit it, but our personnel at the moment simply is not good enough to dominate the air through spread formations.

Who is Manningham for $300, Alex?

lol. I personally would enjoy that, but being that it was his Manningham's first experience under actual game conditions since last December, I can see the hesitance from Kap if the timing wasn't quite there yet between the two.
We ditched the run with Gore just like in the Indy Game and it came back to bite us.

THAT was the biggest issue for me. Seems like Roman just does NOT learn.

So ture. But how can Roman turn his attention to innovation when he has a double thick pizza staring him in the face up in the box? Wotta clown;

1) Roman
2 Harbs ( for not telling Roman what to frickin do)
3) O-line (in this case)
4) Kap
[ Edited by Bali-Niner on Nov 11, 2013 at 10:08 PM ]