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Solution to the WR problem

Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
So far....

(only plan to remark on pass plays)

possession 1 -

1. run stuffed
2. 4 legit receiving options spotted, PA complete to FB
3. run, great patience and gain Gore
4. 3 obvious receiving targets, near INt on crap throw
5. QB adjusts, runs out of playclock.. timeout for SF
6. great run design and gain by Gore
7. run for minimal
8. 4 receiving targets, short pass to Q
9. run stuffed on a QB read option

FG

possession 2 -

1. run stuffed
2. 4 receiving options, completes to Rio for 9
3. predictable run is stuffed

PUNT

possession 3 -

1. PA, 3 receiving options.. QB freezes, overlooks open FB valve.. eats sack
2. run for 4-5
3. 5 clear receiving options... QB runs instead of throwing to 2 open targets... doesn't get enough for the first

PUNT
49ers recover to regain possession!

1. 5 receiving targets, nice checkdown to Gore over middle for 10.

End of 1st Q - ZERO designed plays where only 1-2 targets are legit pass options.

continued from Q1 into Q2

2. run for minimal
3. 5 receiving options.. thrown to sideline INC
4. 4 receiving options... quick throw underneath INC

FG

possession 5 -

1. fake handoff bootleg, 4 receiving options.. QB could have zipped on to the underneath VD, but didn't let it go... and gets called on a facemask vs the LB
2. run stuffed
3. designed WR screen completed to Kyle on 3rd and 23 picks up 4 * first designed play where only 1 was the only target

PUNT - then INT for Brock!!!!

possession 6 -

1. delay run for 14 by Gore (Frank looks mad to now be on the sideline)
timeout SF
2. great cutback to gain 5 by Gore
3. PA rollout, 3 receivers available... INC to VD
4. run for Gore gets 4, but short of the first

FG

possession 7 -

1. 5 receiving options available... 8 yds to Q
2. 5 receiving options available... inc for Hunter
3. run for Hunter just converts
4. 4 targets available... QB freezes when he sees incoming S.. eats sack
5. 5 receiving options available... QB rolls right and out of bounds for a few
6. give-up run

end of 2nd Q - only ONE designed play the entire first half that has only ONE receiving target as viable in a pass play.

possession 9 -

1. 4 receiving options available.. pass to Q for 9
2. read-option fail.. looked like either option was doomed, but QB keeper lost more yds
3. 5 receiving options available... checkdown and nice YAC for Gore, but just wasn't enough to dig them out of this 3rd down hole.

PUNT

possession 10 -

1. nice run for Gore, gain of 14
2. 3-4 yd run for Gore
3. Hunter stuffed and fumbled...

possession 11 -
1. QB run for 16 yds

end of 3rd - still only ONE designed play that has only ONE receiving target as viable in a pass play.

possession 11 -
1. QB run for 16 yds

end of 3rd - still only ONE designed play that has only ONE receiving target as viable in a pass play.

2. designed screen for Rio inc. *the 2nd play so far where only 1 target was truly viable
3. 5 receiving targets available.. inc to Vance McD.. beautiful pass... beautiful LB knockaway.
4. designed WR drag route Rio.. clear that only ONE receiving target as viable in a pass play. Successful play called back on an O- penalty.
5. 5 receiving targets.. 3 deep, 2 wide-open underneath... QB eats unnecessary sack.

PUNT

possession 12 -

1. minimal run for Gore
2. 5 targets available.. instant pressure around RT.. proud of QB just to survive
3. 5 targets available... bad overthrow to Boldin, who is pissed off and vocal about it.

PUNT

possession 13 -

1. 4 receiving options, ball thrown out of bounds
2. run for minimal yds
3. 4 receiving options, quick-strike slant to Rio
4. 3 run deep , 1 deep (Rio) clearly on a pass play... underneath FB available. QB freezes and takes sack.
5. 3 run deep, 2 underneath, and QB hits Rio here short..
6. 4 options run deep, none underneath... QB has time, but hesitates... rolls right... throws inc. at sideline.

PUNT

possession 14 -

1.

* apparently, I stopped recording, so I don;t have the final 2 offensive plays for SF.. they were a sack and then Kaep INT.

Final conclusion:
So that is TWO recorded pass plays (3rd one was called back by O-penalty) in the entire game.. which consisted of 31 QB dropbacks. That means, SF called a designed play for only 1 viable pass target 6.45% of the time.

If anyone wishes to do more than be vague in contending this, please go back through the game and challenge any plays that I have noted here. I welcome it.

I sparingly glanced through this...do you think the WR "options" are really options or was the issue, the annointed receiver was covered so CK is doing what he is coached to do and scramble to buy time or pick up yards with his legs? B/c I've seen all years guys WIDE open coming across the middle, CK staring right at them, and then never pulling the trigger. Does that sound familiar to another QB under the same regime/offense?

And thank YOU for your time on this one!
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Not at all ... goal posts aren't moving at all. This is why those aren't viable options against a blitz. People act like you can just still do whatever you want against any defense and that simply isn't the case. If there's a heavy pass-rush, the issue of receiving options available specifically against a play that requires time to develop is a moot point. This is why offenses have hot reads and 3-step drops. To say that it's only on a QB because a OC calls a 7-step drop in the face of heavy pass rush would mean that Mike Martz would still be HC in Chicago.

What are you saying here? I am reading words, and they are not making sense.

Question: were there or were there not 3 or less pass plays designed where only 1 offensive player was a viable option to pass to. This was the talk that I was challenging.

And I'm challenging your analysis:

Final conclusion: So that is TWO recorded pass plays (3rd one was called back by O-penalty) in the entire game.. which consisted of 31 QB dropbacks. That means, SF called a designed play for only 1 viable pass target 6.45% of the time. If anyone wishes to do more than be vague in contending this, please go back through the game and challenge any plays that I have noted here. I welcome it.

I'm saying that the offense is designed to pop the primary receivers with all other blocking down field or clearing out and THEN becoming a possible receiving option after it's determined the primary is covered - all set up out of either two offensive sets; a 7-step drop OR the zone-run, play-action pass - all of which didn't ever work because of the rush and the coverage on the back-end. The play was read and countered almost every time. The two consistent passing plays that did work? Surprise - surprise - the two slants and the two throws to the RB underneath. What this offense didn't do is adjust, stop trying to "pop" the deep(er) receiver and just go for high percentage pass plays. I questioned the play-calling and the scheme that didn't do anything different in face of a the reality on the field. You can talk about what receivers were "available" but I certainly absolutely didn't see that as the play(s) broke down in real-time.
Originally posted by Buchy:
Show the full video Jiks. If I recall correctly, this was the play where he looked out to the right initially and Patton was not open and thus he went left - he'd already moved to look to the other area of the field. I also believe he had about 2 seconds in the pocket on that play, he scanned right first then went left.

Regardless, what does one play show? I'll go on the Kap thread and look at the pictures of Andrew Luck missing the wide open reads he had...

It is one play but it's just a small sample size of what many others have been talking about.

I counted 5 seconds

1:45:00
He looked away at 2 open guys. He needs to throw the ball before they make their breaks not after.
[ Edited by JiksJuicy on Nov 11, 2013 at 9:42 AM ]
Originally posted by NCommand:
I sparingly glanced through this...do you think the WR "options" are really options or was the issue, the annointed receiver was covered so CK is doing what he is coached to do and scramble to buy time or pick up yards with his legs? B/c I've seen all years guys WIDE open coming across the middle, CK staring right at them, and then never pulling the trigger. Does that sound familiar to another QB under the same regime/offense?

And thank YOU for your time on this one!

Yeah, I was curious myself, so just had to put in the time. There were times where 2-3 targets ran deep downfield.. which could be decoy or eventual block, but even those were when there was nothing short underneath for them to even "clear-out"... Aside from a few clear "single viable target" plays... there was always 2-3 options opened up and waiting for Kaep to throw their way. As you know, there is always a primary route on pass plays, but other secondary reads and available options. Kaep is not progressing through the reads, and though frequently pressured this game, he is freezing up... hesitating to the point where the play is doomed.
Originally posted by NinerGM:
You can talk about what receivers were "available" but I certainly absolutely didn't see that as the play(s) broke down in real-time.

Again, I am happy to discuss any plays in particular with you... but being vague here isn't going to help any of us dig the truth out.
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Originally posted by Buchy:
Show the full video Jiks. If I recall correctly, this was the play where he looked out to the right initially and Patton was not open and thus he went left - he'd already moved to look to the other area of the field. I also believe he had about 2 seconds in the pocket on that play, he scanned right first then went left.

Regardless, what does one play show? I'll go on the Kap thread and look at the pictures of Andrew Luck missing the wide open reads he had...

It is one play but it's just a small sample size of what many others have been talking about.

I counted 5 seconds

1:45:00
He looked away at 2 open guys. He needs to throw the ball before they make their breaks not after.

If Boldin doesn't fall it's a TD. But nooo, he's an available receiver and it's all Kaps fault. QBs only get a certain window to certain portion of the field at a time.
[ Edited by NinerGM on Nov 11, 2013 at 9:49 AM ]
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
You can talk about what receivers were "available" but I certainly absolutely didn't see that as the play(s) broke down in real-time.

Again, I am happy to discuss any plays in particular with you... but being vague here isn't going to help any of us dig the truth out.

I'm not being vague. Setting up a list and defining the scope by saying "these were available targets" aren't "facts" to which we can debate on. I'm saying your entire premise for observation is flawed. That's not vague.
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
You can talk about what receivers were "available" but I certainly absolutely didn't see that as the play(s) broke down in real-time.

Again, I am happy to discuss any plays in particular with you... but being vague here isn't going to help any of us dig the truth out.

I'm not being vague. Setting up a list and defining the scope by saying "these were available targets" aren't "facts" to which we can debate on. I'm saying your entire premise for observation is flawed. That's not vague.

I think he's suggesting that since he took the time to break down each play...if you're not willing to demonstrate on a play or two how and where he's wrong, you don't have much ground to stand on to paint with broad strokes.
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
You can talk about what receivers were "available" but I certainly absolutely didn't see that as the play(s) broke down in real-time.

Again, I am happy to discuss any plays in particular with you... but being vague here isn't going to help any of us dig the truth out.

I'm not being vague. Setting up a list and defining the scope by saying "these were available targets" aren't "facts" to which we can debate on. I'm saying your entire premise for observation is flawed. That's not vague.

Guess we will agree to disagree. Find plays that contradict my findings. If you can't... if you don't... then we have true evidence VS your side-stepping vagueness.
Originally posted by Jakemall:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
You can talk about what receivers were "available" but I certainly absolutely didn't see that as the play(s) broke down in real-time.

Again, I am happy to discuss any plays in particular with you... but being vague here isn't going to help any of us dig the truth out.

I'm not being vague. Setting up a list and defining the scope by saying "these were available targets" aren't "facts" to which we can debate on. I'm saying your entire premise for observation is flawed. That's not vague.

I think he's suggesting that since he took the time to break down each play...if you're not willing to demonstrate on a play or two how and where he's wrong, you don't have much ground to stand on to paint with broad strokes.

Here's what I mean with flawed analysis:

possession 9 -

1. 4 receiving options available.. pass to Q for 9

This pass to Q for 9 was a slant against a heavy blitz. The reason why it was one of the few plays that worked because it didn't take forever to develop and it wasn't a 7-step drop. It's what more plays should have been in this offense. Sure there were 3 other receivers running routes, but Boldin was getting the ball - period.

2. read-option fail.. looked like either option was doomed, but QB keeper lost more yds

Again, this was a read-options, play-action pass that had worked all game and should have been called because it was clear the Panthers were prepared for it but we CONTINUED to call this play.

3. 5 receiving options available... checkdown and nice YAC for Gore, but just wasn't enough to dig them out of this 3rd down hole.

Another designed play where Gore wasn't the checkdown, he was the primary receiver because on the previous (and oft used, play-action, read-option), Gore was kept in to block.

Stating simply that "5 receiving options available" is not a "fact" because in all three cases these receivers were asked to block downfield. What is true about the zone-read/play-action fail is that the Pathers were easily able to sniff out from film where the primary receiver was on that play and by the time the blockers/decoys can turn around to come open, the pass-rush is already affecting the play. This was the failed, unadjusted gameplan that repeated like a broken record.
-------
[ Edited by NinerGM on Nov 11, 2013 at 10:04 AM ]
Originally posted by NinerGM:
If Boldin doesn't fall it's a TD. But nooo, he's an available receiver and it's all Kaps fault. QBs only get a certain window to certain portion of the field at a time.

If he hit his first read which was the slant route to KW it's a td as well. That was the designed play called regardless if it's one read or not and and Kaep didn't execute it. If you call a play that is open but not thrown who's fault is it?
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
If Boldin doesn't fall it's a TD. But nooo, he's an available receiver and it's all Kaps fault. QBs only get a certain window to certain portion of the field at a time.

If he hit his first read which was the slant route to KW it's a td as well. That was the designed play called regardless if it's one read or not and and Kaep didn't execute it. If you call a play that is open but not thrown who's fault is it?

KW is in the back of the endzone with 2 Hawks in front of him. Patton is jumping to the right but by then Kap is looking left and starting to scramble left ....
Originally posted by NinerGM:

This pass to Q for 9 was a slant against a heavy blitz. The reason why it was one of the few plays that worked because it didn't take forever to develop and it wasn't a 7-step drop. It's what more plays should have been in this offense. Sure there were 3 other receivers running routes, but Boldin was getting the ball - period.


Not true. Had the CB (who was showing press) jammed or the OLB closed in on 3 steps of coverage, then the QB must look for a secondary target read. So that pass is definitely not going to one guy PERIOD. The others are running routes to make themselves available for the QB... you can clearly see Boldin turned back to his QB as an option... if someone else underneath catches the pass instead, of course, it is their jobs to then turn upfield to block for him.


3. 5 receiving options available... checkdown and nice YAC for Gore, but just wasn't enough to dig them out of this 3rd down hole.
Another designed play where Gore wasn't the checkdown, he was the primary receiver because on the previous (and oft used, play-action, read-option), Gore was kept in to block. Stating simply that "5 receiving options available" is not a "fact" because in all three cases these receivers were asked to block downfield.

also not true... Boldin ran a crossing route and was wide open with lots of room to run from hash to sideline... 3 defenders were on Gore's other side.. Kaep prematurely checked down to Gore instead. Had Boldin been simply a decoy? He'd have not run so far wide of Gore.. to better block after the Gore catch. As it was, Kaep not hitting Boldin was dumb...
[ Edited by Mr.Mcgibblets on Nov 11, 2013 at 10:32 AM ]
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Originally posted by NinerGM:

This pass to Q for 9 was a slant against a heavy blitz. The reason why it was one of the few plays that worked because it didn't take forever to develop and it wasn't a 7-step drop. It's what more plays should have been in this offense. Sure there were 3 other receivers running routes, but Boldin was getting the ball - period.


Not true. Had the CB unexpectedly jammed or an OLB dropped over coverage, then the QB must look for a secondary target read. So that pass is definitely not going to one guy PERIOD. The others are running routes to make themselves available for the QB... if someone else underneath catches the pass instead, of course, it is their jobs to then turn upfield to block for him.


3. 5 receiving options available... checkdown and nice YAC for Gore, but just wasn't enough to dig them out of this 3rd down hole.
Another designed play where Gore wasn't the checkdown, he was the primary receiver because on the previous (and oft used, play-action, read-option), Gore was kept in to block. Stating simply that "5 receiving options available" is not a "fact" because in all three cases these receivers were asked to block downfield.

also not true... Boldin ran a slant and was wide open with lots of room to run from hash to sideline... Kaep prematurely checked down to Gore instead. Had Boldin been simply a decoy? He'd have not run so far wide of Gore.. to better block after the Gore catch. As it was, Kaep not hitting Boldin was dumb...

Not true simply because you say it isn't? This is the problem here. You have your own set of "facts". And the assumption is made that simply because a WR is running a "route" he's available and not a decoy or clearing out. On the first possession, you can track the QBs eyes all the way - it was a one read throw and if the CB jammed, but it's pretty easy to tell pre-snap if Q is going to be jammed at the LOS - no? This is what I mean. Your quick determination of "available receiving options" IMHO, is just flawed.
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Not true simply because you say it isn't? This is the problem here. You have your own set of "facts". And the assumption is made that simply because a WR is running a "route" he's available and not a decoy or clearing out. On the first possession, you can track the QBs eyes all the way - it was a one read throw and if the CB jammed, but it's pretty easy to tell pre-snap if Q is going to be jammed at the LOS - no? This is what I mean. Your quick determination of "available receiving options" IMHO, is just flawed.

No. Watch how close the CB is. He is showing that he can easily jam. You can see the OLB just 3 possible steps away from clogging the slant lane. If Kaep sees either a good jam or the OLB coming in, he HAS to look for... yep, you guess it... another available target. If something is flawed, be specific and we can deal with it together. Be my guest.