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Solution to the WR problem

Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
So far....

(only plan to remark on pass plays)

possession 1 -

1. run stuffed
2. 4 legit receiving options spotted, PA complete to FB
3. run, great patience and gain Gore
4. 3 obvious receiving targets, near INt on crap throw
5. QB adjusts, runs out of playclock.. timeout for SF
6. great run design and gain by Gore
7. run for minimal
8. 4 receiving targets, short pass to Q
9. run stuffed on a QB read option

FG

possession 2 -

1. run stuffed
2. 4 receiving options, completes to Rio for 9
3. predictable run is stuffed

PUNT

possession 3 -

1. PA, 3 receiving options.. QB freezes, overlooks open FB valve.. eats sack
2. run for 4-5
3. 5 clear receiving options... QB runs instead of throwing to 2 open targets... doesn't get enough for the first

PUNT
49ers recover to regain possession!

1. 5 receiving targets, nice checkdown to Gore over middle for 10.

End of 1st Q - ZERO designed plays where only 1-2 targets are legit pass options.

continued from Q1 into Q2

2. run for minimal
3. 5 receiving options.. thrown to sideline INC
4. 4 receiving options... quick throw underneath INC

FG

possession 5 -

1. fake handoff bootleg, 4 receiving options.. QB could have zipped on to the underneath VD, but didn't let it go... and gets called on a facemask vs the LB
2. run stuffed
3. designed WR screen completed to Kyle on 3rd and 23 picks up 4 * first designed play where only 1 was the only target

PUNT - then INT for Brock!!!!

possession 6 -

1. delay run for 14 by Gore (Frank looks mad to now be on the sideline)
timeout SF
2. great cutback to gain 5 by Gore
3. PA rollout, 3 receivers available... INC to VD
4. run for Gore gets 4, but short of the first

FG

possession 7 -

1. 5 receiving options available... 8 yds to Q
2. 5 receiving options available... inc for Hunter
3. run for Hunter just converts
4. 4 targets available... QB freezes when he sees incoming S.. eats sack
5. 5 receiving options available... QB rolls right and out of bounds for a few
6. give-up run

end of 2nd Q - only ONE designed play the entire first half that has only ONE receiving target as viable in a pass play.

Just for clarification Mr. McGibblets what are you counting as receiving options? People who are actually running routes and open, or just how many players are on the line that could possibly catch a pass? Because some of these numbers seem kinda high 5 receiving options? Only 11 men on the field. So are you counting running backs/fullbacks as receiving options? I mean you're basically saying that there is no downfield blocking on those plays.
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
So far....

(only plan to remark on pass plays)

possession 1 -

1. run stuffed
2. 4 legit receiving options spotted, PA complete to FB
3. run, great patience and gain Gore
4. 3 obvious receiving targets, near INt on crap throw
5. QB adjusts, runs out of playclock.. timeout for SF
6. great run design and gain by Gore
7. run for minimal
8. 4 receiving targets, short pass to Q
9. run stuffed on a QB read option

FG

possession 2 -

1. run stuffed
2. 4 receiving options, completes to Rio for 9
3. predictable run is stuffed

PUNT

possession 3 -

1. PA, 3 receiving options.. QB freezes, overlooks open FB valve.. eats sack
2. run for 4-5
3. 5 clear receiving options... QB runs instead of throwing to 2 open targets... doesn't get enough for the first

PUNT
49ers recover to regain possession!

1. 5 receiving targets, nice checkdown to Gore over middle for 10.

End of 1st Q - ZERO designed plays where only 1-2 targets are legit pass options.

continued from Q1 into Q2

2. run for minimal
3. 5 receiving options.. thrown to sideline INC
4. 4 receiving options... quick throw underneath INC

FG

possession 5 -

1. fake handoff bootleg, 4 receiving options.. QB could have zipped on to the underneath VD, but didn't let it go... and gets called on a facemask vs the LB
2. run stuffed
3. designed WR screen completed to Kyle on 3rd and 23 picks up 4 * first designed play where only 1 was the only target

PUNT - then INT for Brock!!!!

possession 6 -

1. delay run for 14 by Gore (Frank looks mad to now be on the sideline)
timeout SF
2. great cutback to gain 5 by Gore
3. PA rollout, 3 receivers available... INC to VD
4. run for Gore gets 4, but short of the first

FG

possession 7 -

1. 5 receiving options available... 8 yds to Q
2. 5 receiving options available... inc for Hunter
3. run for Hunter just converts
4. 4 targets available... QB freezes when he sees incoming S.. eats sack
5. 5 receiving options available... QB rolls right and out of bounds for a few
6. give-up run

end of 2nd Q - only ONE designed play the entire first half that has only ONE receiving target as viable in a pass play.

Receiving options? All running deep routes in the face of a ridiculous passrush? We're calling 7-step drops when both tackles were giving up the rush on the edges almost immediately? You can have receiving options but that doesn't matter if there's no time. Analysis like this completely assumes that the QB has time to read through every progression and throw to every option which doesn't even happen for the best of QBs against better defenses. If you have both the time to perform a 7-stepper and get to your 4th read, according to the defense you have waaaaay too much time.

And the designed play for the primary read we're all criticising usually is the expected receiver - Boldin or Davis who is usually covered. Once that's taken away and you get Colins feet moving, then what happens? Can the primary receiver please not be running 12 yards downfield for once against a heavy pass-rush? Can we go back to the two slants and the underneath passes to Gore that were working?
Originally posted by sking20854:
Just for clarification Mr. McGibblets what are you counting as receiving options? People who are actually running routes and open, or just how many players are on the line that could possibly catch a pass? Because some of these numbers seem kinda high 5 receiving options? Only 11 men on the field. So are you counting running backs/fullbacks as receiving options? I mean you're basically saying that there is no downfield blocking on those plays.

Targets that are running routes and are available for passes their way. Actual passing options for the QB that are not intent on keeping their backs to the QB to block.
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
People that are saying that the majority of our passing plays are just one read options are making excuses for Kap. You do not call the majority of your passing plays with just one option for the quarterback.

Some of our plays are designed with one or two options (like play action roll outs with a fullback to the flat and a receiver running a deep corner), but these are few and far between. You're really telling me that Harbaugh and Roman designed most of our passing game that only consist of one or two options, with the rest of the receivers simply being decoys? LOL, no.

Now they very well may be coaching Kap up and simplifying things by telling him to just go through reads one and two, but that does not mean he is limited to those two options. So part of it falls on the coaching if that's how they're coaching him up, part of it falls on the s**t pass protection, but the rest falls on Kap. The plays aren't designed with just one guy running a route. How many times have we seen him scan the field this year? He simply is not going through his reads. He has tunnel vision.

And his pocket awareness and reading the defensive coverage and blitzes has been horrid.

He's also relying on his arm strength for everything. He hasn't been throwing guys open or hitting them with timing routes. He thinks he can wait for the receiver to get open because he has the strong arm. In the NFL you can't do that s**t, no matter how strong your arm is. You can't be throwing passes late so often. The dbs will recover. You must have the anticipation and timing with your receivers. And he's rarely thrown with any touch this season. He tries to fire in passes that should be throw with touch.

Kap has played s**tty this year, there is no denying. We expect much more from him and we deserve much more.

Timing routes? What timing routes? You mean slants? The two slants called yesterday?

Not defending Romans play calling, but most routes are timing routes. You've got to throw the ball when the receiver is coming out of his break. This applies to a corner route, a post route, a curl route, an in route, an out route, and slant routes.
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Receiving options? All running deep routes in the face of a ridiculous passrush? We're calling 7-step drops when both tackles were giving up the rush on the edges almost immediately? You can have receiving options but that doesn't matter if there's no time. Analysis like this completely assumes that the QB has time to read through every progression and throw to every option which doesn't even happen for the best of QBs against better defenses. If you have both the time to perform a 7-stepper and get to your 4th read, according to the defense you have waaaaay too much time.

And the designed play for the primary read we're all criticising usually is the expected receiver - Boldin or Davis who is usually covered. Once that's taken away and you get Colins feet moving, then what happens? Can the primary receiver please not be running 12 yards downfield for once against a heavy pass-rush? Can we go back to the two slants and the underneath passes to Gore that were working?

that would be moving the goal-posts. My findings are to debunk this theory that SF has too many 1-target pass options. We can debate whether a WR needs to do a better job of reading blitz and adjusting his route later.
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
So far....

(only plan to remark on pass plays)

possession 1 -

1. run stuffed
2. 4 legit receiving options spotted, PA complete to FB
3. run, great patience and gain Gore
4. 3 obvious receiving targets, near INt on crap throw
5. QB adjusts, runs out of playclock.. timeout for SF
6. great run design and gain by Gore
7. run for minimal
8. 4 receiving targets, short pass to Q
9. run stuffed on a QB read option

FG

possession 2 -

1. run stuffed
2. 4 receiving options, completes to Rio for 9
3. predictable run is stuffed

PUNT

possession 3 -

1. PA, 3 receiving options.. QB freezes, overlooks open FB valve.. eats sack
2. run for 4-5
3. 5 clear receiving options... QB runs instead of throwing to 2 open targets... doesn't get enough for the first

PUNT
49ers recover to regain possession!

1. 5 receiving targets, nice checkdown to Gore over middle for 10.

End of 1st Q - ZERO designed plays where only 1-2 targets are legit pass options.

continued from Q1 into Q2

2. run for minimal
3. 5 receiving options.. thrown to sideline INC
4. 4 receiving options... quick throw underneath INC

FG

possession 5 -

1. fake handoff bootleg, 4 receiving options.. QB could have zipped on to the underneath VD, but didn't let it go... and gets called on a facemask vs the LB
2. run stuffed
3. designed WR screen completed to Kyle on 3rd and 23 picks up 4 * first designed play where only 1 was the only target

PUNT - then INT for Brock!!!!

possession 6 -

1. delay run for 14 by Gore (Frank looks mad to now be on the sideline)
timeout SF
2. great cutback to gain 5 by Gore
3. PA rollout, 3 receivers available... INC to VD
4. run for Gore gets 4, but short of the first

FG

possession 7 -

1. 5 receiving options available... 8 yds to Q
2. 5 receiving options available... inc for Hunter
3. run for Hunter just converts
4. 4 targets available... QB freezes when he sees incoming S.. eats sack
5. 5 receiving options available... QB rolls right and out of bounds for a few
6. give-up run

end of 2nd Q - only ONE designed play the entire first half that has only ONE receiving target as viable in a pass play.

possession 9 -

1. 4 receiving options available.. pass to Q for 9
2. read-option fail.. looked like either option was doomed, but QB keeper lost more yds
3. 5 receiving options available... checkdown and nice YAC for Gore, but just wasn't enough to dig them out of this 3rd down hole.

PUNT

possession 10 -

1. nice run for Gore, gain of 14
2. 3-4 yd run for Gore
3. Hunter stuffed and fumbled...

possession 11 -
1. QB run for 16 yds

end of 3rd - still only ONE designed play that has only ONE receiving target as viable in a pass play.
Originally posted by sking20854:
Just for clarification Mr. McGibblets what are you counting as receiving options? People who are actually running routes and open, or just how many players are on the line that could possibly catch a pass? Because some of these numbers seem kinda high 5 receiving options? Only 11 men on the field. So are you counting running backs/fullbacks as receiving options? I mean you're basically saying that there is no downfield blocking on those plays.

Starting to think he has no clue what he's looking at. Just because a guy is on the line, doesn't mean he's there to receive, just because a receiver is downfield, doesn't mean he is there to receive, just because a receiver gets open after the QB has already gone past him in his progression, doesn't mean he is open, there's a lot of timing involved.


You can watch the Manningham 3rd down reception in the 4th quarter that got brought back on an OPI for a good reference on what it looks like when they only have 1 guy receiving the football.
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Starting to think he has no clue what he's looking at. Just because a guy is on the line, doesn't mean he's there to receive, just because a receiver is downfield, doesn't mean he is there to receive, just because a receiver gets open after the QB has already gone past him in his progression, doesn't mean he is open, there's a lot of timing involved.


You can watch the Manningham 3rd down reception in the 4th quarter that got brought back on an OPI for a good reference on what it looks like when they only have 1 guy receiving the football.

No, you are hoping I don't know what I am looking at.. because if I do? You have been talking BS all this time.

... and by the way, there are now 3 pass plays where only 1 target was viable... and one was successful but called back on an O-penalty. this is 13 min. into the 4th.

Feel free to challenge any of my findings... they are out there. If you do not, then I must conclude that you can not.
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Originally posted by sking20854:
Just for clarification Mr. McGibblets what are you counting as receiving options? People who are actually running routes and open, or just how many players are on the line that could possibly catch a pass? Because some of these numbers seem kinda high 5 receiving options? Only 11 men on the field. So are you counting running backs/fullbacks as receiving options? I mean you're basically saying that there is no downfield blocking on those plays.

Starting to think he has no clue what he's looking at. Just because a guy is on the line, doesn't mean he's there to receive, just because a receiver is downfield, doesn't mean he is there to receive, just because a receiver gets open after the QB has already gone past him in his progression, doesn't mean he is open, there's a lot of timing involved.


You can watch the Manningham 3rd down reception in the 4th quarter that got brought back on an OPI for a good reference on what it looks like when they only have 1 guy receiving the football.

The fact anyone would say on any one play there are 5 receiving options is by definition suspect - especially in this offense.
[ Edited by NinerGM on Nov 11, 2013 at 8:58 AM ]
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Originally posted by qnnhan7:
is this the play that he went to VD in the left corner Please tell this isn't....

Nope this is just an example of him not using the pocket that is presented and scrambling too early. I pointed this out week 2 and it still persist. I try to stay away from bashing Kaep. but I feel this isn't bashing him, it's pointing out something that I have seen since last year thus why i made this week 2. Was going to do the same for other games but it is time consuming. Also goes along the lines of missing open reads. He rolled out when there was a pocket to use for a little more time and Gore fell down. He didn't even look at the open guys because he leaves the pocket too early and plays can't develop.

When he uses the pocket and don't get happy feet he is pretty damn good. When he get's rattled he doesn't offer a whole lot at this early time in his career.

Next frame



Show the full video Jiks. If I recall correctly, this was the play where he looked out to the right initially and Patton was not open and thus he went left - he'd already moved to look to the other area of the field. I also believe he had about 2 seconds in the pocket on that play, he scanned right first then went left.

Regardless, what does one play show? I'll go on the Kap thread and look at the pictures of Andrew Luck missing the wide open reads he had...
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Starting to think he has no clue what he's looking at. Just because a guy is on the line, doesn't mean he's there to receive, just because a receiver is downfield, doesn't mean he is there to receive, just because a receiver gets open after the QB has already gone past him in his progression, doesn't mean he is open, there's a lot of timing involved.


You can watch the Manningham 3rd down reception in the 4th quarter that got brought back on an OPI for a good reference on what it looks like when they only have 1 guy receiving the football.

No, you are hoping I don't know what I am looking at.. because if I do? You have been talking BS all this time.

... and by the way, there are now 3 pass plays where only 1 target was viable... and one was successful but called back on an O-penalty. this is 13 min. into the 4th.

Feel free to challenge any of my findings... they are out there. If you do not, then I must conclude that you can not.

This is getting personal. Debate football.
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
So far....

(only plan to remark on pass plays)

possession 1 -

1. run stuffed
2. 4 legit receiving options spotted, PA complete to FB
3. run, great patience and gain Gore
4. 3 obvious receiving targets, near INt on crap throw
5. QB adjusts, runs out of playclock.. timeout for SF
6. great run design and gain by Gore
7. run for minimal
8. 4 receiving targets, short pass to Q
9. run stuffed on a QB read option

FG

possession 2 -

1. run stuffed
2. 4 receiving options, completes to Rio for 9
3. predictable run is stuffed

PUNT

possession 3 -

1. PA, 3 receiving options.. QB freezes, overlooks open FB valve.. eats sack
2. run for 4-5
3. 5 clear receiving options... QB runs instead of throwing to 2 open targets... doesn't get enough for the first

PUNT
49ers recover to regain possession!

1. 5 receiving targets, nice checkdown to Gore over middle for 10.

End of 1st Q - ZERO designed plays where only 1-2 targets are legit pass options.

continued from Q1 into Q2

2. run for minimal
3. 5 receiving options.. thrown to sideline INC
4. 4 receiving options... quick throw underneath INC

FG

possession 5 -

1. fake handoff bootleg, 4 receiving options.. QB could have zipped on to the underneath VD, but didn't let it go... and gets called on a facemask vs the LB
2. run stuffed
3. designed WR screen completed to Kyle on 3rd and 23 picks up 4 * first designed play where only 1 was the only target

PUNT - then INT for Brock!!!!

possession 6 -

1. delay run for 14 by Gore (Frank looks mad to now be on the sideline)
timeout SF
2. great cutback to gain 5 by Gore
3. PA rollout, 3 receivers available... INC to VD
4. run for Gore gets 4, but short of the first

FG

possession 7 -

1. 5 receiving options available... 8 yds to Q
2. 5 receiving options available... inc for Hunter
3. run for Hunter just converts
4. 4 targets available... QB freezes when he sees incoming S.. eats sack
5. 5 receiving options available... QB rolls right and out of bounds for a few
6. give-up run

end of 2nd Q - only ONE designed play the entire first half that has only ONE receiving target as viable in a pass play.

possession 9 -

1. 4 receiving options available.. pass to Q for 9
2. read-option fail.. looked like either option was doomed, but QB keeper lost more yds
3. 5 receiving options available... checkdown and nice YAC for Gore, but just wasn't enough to dig them out of this 3rd down hole.

PUNT

possession 10 -

1. nice run for Gore, gain of 14
2. 3-4 yd run for Gore
3. Hunter stuffed and fumbled...

possession 11 -
1. QB run for 16 yds

end of 3rd - still only ONE designed play that has only ONE receiving target as viable in a pass play.

possession 11 -
1. QB run for 16 yds

end of 3rd - still only ONE designed play that has only ONE receiving target as viable in a pass play.

2. designed screen for Rio inc. *the 2nd play so far where only 1 target was truly viable
3. 5 receiving targets available.. inc to Vance McD.. beautiful pass... beautiful LB knockaway.
4. designed WR drag route Rio.. clear that only ONE receiving target as viable in a pass play. Successful play called back on an O- penalty.
5. 5 receiving targets.. 3 deep, 2 wide-open underneath... QB eats unnecessary sack.

PUNT

possession 12 -

1. minimal run for Gore
2. 5 targets available.. instant pressure around RT.. proud of QB just to survive
3. 5 targets available... bad overthrow to Boldin, who is pissed off and vocal about it.

PUNT

possession 13 -

1. 4 receiving options, ball thrown out of bounds
2. run for minimal yds
3. 4 receiving options, quick-strike slant to Rio
4. 3 run deep , 1 deep (Rio) clearly on a pass play... underneath FB available. QB freezes and takes sack.
5. 3 run deep, 2 underneath, and QB hits Rio here short..
6. 4 options run deep, none underneath... QB has time, but hesitates... rolls right... throws inc. at sideline.

PUNT

possession 14 -

1.

* apparently, I stopped recording, so I don;t have the final 2 offensive plays for SF.. they were a sack and then Kaep INT.

Final conclusion:
So that is TWO recorded pass plays (3rd one was called back by O-penalty) in the entire game.. which consisted of 31 QB dropbacks. That means, SF called a designed play for only 1 viable pass target 6.45% of the time.

If anyone wishes to do more than be vague in contending this, please go back through the game and challenge any plays that I have noted here. I welcome it.
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Receiving options? All running deep routes in the face of a ridiculous passrush? We're calling 7-step drops when both tackles were giving up the rush on the edges almost immediately? You can have receiving options but that doesn't matter if there's no time. Analysis like this completely assumes that the QB has time to read through every progression and throw to every option which doesn't even happen for the best of QBs against better defenses. If you have both the time to perform a 7-stepper and get to your 4th read, according to the defense you have waaaaay too much time.

And the designed play for the primary read we're all criticising usually is the expected receiver - Boldin or Davis who is usually covered. Once that's taken away and you get Colins feet moving, then what happens? Can the primary receiver please not be running 12 yards downfield for once against a heavy pass-rush? Can we go back to the two slants and the underneath passes to Gore that were working?

that would be moving the goal-posts. My findings are to debunk this theory that SF has too many 1-target pass options. We can debate whether a WR needs to do a better job of reading blitz and adjusting his route later.

Not at all ... goal posts aren't moving at all. This is why those aren't viable options against a blitz. People act like you can just still do whatever you want against any defense and that simply isn't the case. If there's a heavy pass-rush, the issue of receiving options available specifically against a play that requires time to develop is a moot point. This is why offenses have hot reads and 3-step drops. To say that it's only on a QB because a OC calls a 7-step drop in the face of heavy pass rush would mean that Mike Martz would still be HC in Chicago.
Originally posted by Buchy:
Originally posted by Rascal:
The solution at least for now is to stop this one-read only business. Play more receivers, 3 or even 4 WR sets and I am sure someone will get open. Instruct Kap to stop keying in on 1 guy and tell all receivers to keep the play alive until the ball is out of Kap's hand.


Kaep is not a one read QB, our offense is a 1 WR open scheme.... we don't scheme to give Kaep 3 reads, we scheme to get one of either Vernon or Boldin open (depending on the pre snap read) and all other players are blocking or running decoy routes.

Please try and understand this - it's not the reads, it's the fact that we scheme to throw to one specific player and the rest of our WR and TE's are given assignments to facilitate that.

This...the "issue" is grounded in the type of offense we employ. The anti-WCO. It's a college offense, nothing more. No route trees, built in outlets, WR's running to the same spots, no progression reads, no proper utilization of talent, abilities, etc. The passing game is merely a compliment to the run game, a Bo Schemblacher offense where the passing game is a necessary evil.
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Not at all ... goal posts aren't moving at all. This is why those aren't viable options against a blitz. People act like you can just still do whatever you want against any defense and that simply isn't the case. If there's a heavy pass-rush, the issue of receiving options available specifically against a play that requires time to develop is a moot point. This is why offenses have hot reads and 3-step drops. To say that it's only on a QB because a OC calls a 7-step drop in the face of heavy pass rush would mean that Mike Martz would still be HC in Chicago.

What are you saying here? I am reading words, and they are not making sense.

Question: were there or were there not 3 or less pass plays designed where only 1 offensive player was a viable option to pass to. This was the talk that I was challenging.