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What is the real problem with this offensive offense?

What is the real problem with this offensive offense?

Originally posted by NinerGM:
You do understand that this offense is designed this way - it was the same exact design when Alex Smith was here - the only difference is that he was a terrible scrambler so the coaches kept a RB in as a checkdown. That's been replaced - now the RB is kept in to block. So if it's a question of shutting down Kap, it also should be a question about the entire scheme/philosophy of this college offense.

This. People calling Kaepernick a "one read" QB are as blind as Stevie Wonder. The guy has shown the ability to go through his reads but when the playcall is setup to have only one guy receiving and two other receivers blocking, what do you expect?


Go get another QB, make him a starter, see what happens in this offense, it'll be the exact same s**t. You don't think Kaepernick could make things work in the Philly offense, the New Orleans offense, heck, even the Chiefs offense?


They seem to obsess so much over low-percentage deep downfield plays and ignore the shorter, intermediate passes that you can really beat a defense up with. Kaepernick is not the one drawing up the game plan, he's not the one who's calling for 7 step drops against a highly aggressive defense, this is on the coaching staff, until they change what they are doing, nothing on the field will change, I don't care who you put at quarterback or how many receivers....AKA......fleet-footed downfield blockers you bring in.
Originally posted by theduke85:
Originally posted by tohara3:
Originally posted by Antix:
I think its passing concepts/Greg Roman. Whoever designs or is in charge of passing (prob the WR coach) needs to be fired or put on notice. I feel Harbaugh is too loyal to do that. Somebody needs to be held accountable though. When we were getting pressured we never adjusted. No shallow crosses or quick slants. Our passing design is terrible.

This. Something has to be done now.
What I don't understand, is, when I watch Seattle games, I constantly see what appears to be excellent playcalling. Now, it's totally possible that Roman calls good plays and Kaep just blows them, but ...

Seemingly 4-5 plays a game, Seattle runs a play like this: immediately after the snap, Wilson rolls out of the pocket to the right; Zach Miller runs with him, and heads about 2-3 yard downfield into the flats, and then runs parallel to Wilson. Almost always, a linebacker is in the flats waiting. The linebacker either needs to pursue Wilson (exposing a wide open Miller), or cover Miller, which frees up running room for Wilson. Wilson is a good QB, there's no doubt about that. It also seems like he has a lot of freebie plays like that though. Why do we not see the same thing?

Again, it's either bad playcalling, or Wilson is that much better than Kaep, to the point that he makes it look easy.

We actually run a similar play out to Bruce Miller and have hit it a few times but good Ds have adjusted to even our most basic plays. Kap also has the stronger arm but Wilson is more shifty and puts a better touch on his throws.
Originally posted by sacleads:
It's sad but I think this offense is missing Moss, and D. Walker at this moment. I believe that not having another legit WR besides Crabtree have cost us two potential Super Bowl in the past two seasons and now it is biting us in the azz again. We need another receiver who is a threat to hit a home run. Without that, we are relying on Davis too often and if he's out, we are just incapable of winning games through the air. We are wasting away our window by not seriously addressing our WR issues.

We need to draft a WR well in the upcoming draft.

I can't put the blame on the receivers anymore. They had a few bad plays in the game, but overall, they just did not have the opportunity to get the ball. The play design was atrocious. With a team blitzing the way the Panthers were, this would have been the perfect game to showcase Hunter and James on short screens and pass plays. Manningham was out there moving really well, and he would have been great to put on short crossing patterns. The bottom line is that the plays that were called took way too long to develop, and Kap was under fire because of it. There were several times he took sacks that he should not have, but I think the best we could hope for is that he threw the ball away.

I used to hope that Roman would be able to adapt and get creative with the pass, but I just don't see any change from year one to year three. To be honest, I don't even think he is as good as advertised in the run game. I don't know how many times Frank Gore turns a loss of 3 into a positive gain. I just think that if this team ever expects to be a better offense, Roman has to go, and there is a reason nobody has hired him yet.
Originally posted by GoldenJoe:
It took our staff this long to get LMJ back to returning punts....I get that they didn't trust him after last year's shaky preseason but they're reticent to change. The only thing Harbs really wanted to do and went through with immediately was naming Kap as the starter after one solid game.

but....he can throw it DEEEEEEEEP
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
You do understand that this offense is designed this way - it was the same exact design when Alex Smith was here - the only difference is that he was a terrible scrambler so the coaches kept a RB in as a checkdown. That's been replaced - now the RB is kept in to block. So if it's a question of shutting down Kap, it also should be a question about the entire scheme/philosophy of this college offense.

This. People calling Kaepernick a "one read" QB are as blind as Stevie Wonder. The guy has shown the ability to go through his reads but when the playcall is setup to have only one guy receiving and two other receivers blocking, what do you expect?


Go get another QB, make him a starter, see what happens in this offense, it'll be the exact same s**t. You don't think Kaepernick could make things work in the Philly offense, the New Orleans offense, heck, even the Chiefs offense?


They seem to obsess so much over low-percentage deep downfield plays and ignore the shorter, intermediate passes that you can really beat a defense up with. Kaepernick is not the one drawing up the game plan, he's not the one who's calling for 7 step drops against a highly aggressive defense, this is on the coaching staff, until they change what they are doing, nothing on the field will change, I don't care who you put at quarterback or how many receivers....AKA......fleet-footed downfield blockers you bring in.

I agree with a lot of this. A huge issue is the playcalling and I think this has also had an adverse effect on Kap's confidence and his ability to simply play instinctual football at times.
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
You do understand that this offense is designed this way - it was the same exact design when Alex Smith was here - the only difference is that he was a terrible scrambler so the coaches kept a RB in as a checkdown. That's been replaced - now the RB is kept in to block. So if it's a question of shutting down Kap, it also should be a question about the entire scheme/philosophy of this college offense.

This. People calling Kaepernick a "one read" QB are as blind as Stevie Wonder. The guy has shown the ability to go through his reads but when the playcall is setup to have only one guy receiving and two other receivers blocking, what do you expect?


Go get another QB, make him a starter, see what happens in this offense, it'll be the exact same s**t. You don't think Kaepernick could make things work in the Philly offense, the New Orleans offense, heck, even the Chiefs offense?


They seem to obsess so much over low-percentage deep downfield plays and ignore the shorter, intermediate passes that you can really beat a defense up with. Kaepernick is not the one drawing up the game plan, he's not the one who's calling for 7 step drops against a highly aggressive defense, this is on the coaching staff, until they change what they are doing, nothing on the field will change, I don't care who you put at quarterback or how many receivers....AKA......fleet-footed downfield blockers you bring in.

Yep, and this is exactly why Boldin was called for OPI on that long catch by Manningham. Half the players on offense are being used as decoys to get one or two guys open. Think back to the Crabtree touchdown against Atlanta. It was an underneath slant where the two inside receivers just ran straight toward the DBs to give Crab space to move. It is the same type of play I call in my flag football league.
Originally posted by gunslinger8:
Anyone else remember this?
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/01/07/harbaugh-we-will-install-the-west-coast-offense/
So was the dude flat out lying or does he even know what the west coast offense is? That abomination he put on the field today doesn't resemble WCO on its best day and I am offended that they could be mentioned in the same breath. Don't paint your Ford Escort red and try telling me it's a Ferrari, dude.


I remember all the talk about going through Bill Walsh's old tapes and his offensive ideas, I doubt much of that happened. In 2011, the 49ers did call quite a bit of the traditional WCO early on but they've progressively gotten away from it. I don't even know what to call this offense. Its a b*****dized Bo Schembechler/Lindy Infante/college hybrid offense. By far the worst schemes as far as passing plays go in the NFL. For all the good things the defense does, the offense's playcalling continues to hold the team back. Its frustrating to see other teams bring guys in off the street and have success with them, meanwhile the 49ers continually struggle to utilize the guys they have.
Originally posted by TheRatMan13:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by TheRatMan13:
I was going to post this rant in a different thread, but it is probably better off here.

I don't think the entire blame should fall on Roman's shoulders because the players have to play too. Kaepernick needs to keep his head up when teams are blitzing. This has become a pattern with him. If you get to him early, he starts watching the rush instead of keeping his eyes downfield and trying to beat the blitz. Receivers need to catch the ball (MAINLY YOU VANCE MCDONALD!), and these penalties on offense that completely kill good drives need to stop (Holding on Davis, OPI on Boldin). When the game is tight, backs need to hold onto the ball. It seems that any time there is a tight game like this, the Niners can look back to a key fumble by a RB. I have seen Gore, Hunter, and James all do it at the most crucial part of a game.

But back to Greg Roman's offense. The things I saw today are really disappointing because I feel like we have watched the same type of game for three straight year. If you look back at every loss in the Harbaugh era, the games play out very similar. The Niners have lost a total of 12 games including playoffs. Looking back at the teams they have lost to: Cowboys, Ravens, Cardinals, Giants, Seahawks, Vikings, Rams, Colts, and now the Panthers; the majority of those games were lost because the other team showed up playing the same style of football, and beat the Niners doing it. The defense played well in most of those games, but the offense is what is the scary part. They have averaged just over 13 points per game.

The reason I have such a problem with Greg Roman is because it feels like there really is just no back up plan with the passing attack if it does not go how he expected in the film room. Obviously, I am not able to break down film to see what it is that is trying to be accomplished, but I do know that when you get into passing situations against defenses that have been bringing heavy pressure all game, the best way to expose that is to throw where they are not (pretty simple, right?). We have some of the most capable RBs in the league to throw to out of the backfield, but they are never used. We have two TEs that can move and out muscle smaller defenders, and we now have our receiving corps starting to get healthy. Why is it that the backs, and TEs not named Vernon Davis, are not used more creatively?

In passing situations, it seems like it is always the same. The offense sets up with either a read-option look with 3 backs, who are there solely to block, or it is an empty back set. On one hand, the defense knows that none of the backs are going to be big threats out of the backfield because there is almost ZERO film of that ever happening in three years. On the other hand, your receivers are running routes that take too long to develop, so you put your young QB in a position where he either has to make time to wait for one of his two receiving options to get open, or he takes a terrible sack. A lot of times, that happens on second down, which explains the terrible 3rd down conversion percentages.

As for Kap, I have seen a few things mentioned on this board that are very bothersome. First, I don't think I have ever seen him studying the previous drives on the sideline. This might be overstated, but if that is the case, then I do not know why the coaches do not have him doing this. Today when the Panthers sent pressure right in his face, he might have seen that it was coming from his right over and over, and maybe he finds a hole in the defense from where they just blitzed out of. Again, I could be wrong about that, but it does bother me that other QBs get better as the game goes on, and I never have any hope that ours is going to take us down the field with his arm the the game's last few minutes.

The second thing I saw mentioned was that the read option always has his eyes looking at the line instead of down field. I never noticed it before, but when they run the fake read-option pass plays, he is always staring down the end instead of looking downfield. In order to sell the read option fake, he has no choice but to look down, and I think that is really hindering his ability to make his downfield reads to the receivers. When he drops back and just throws, he can be lethal, but with that fake, he doesn't start looking downfield until the D-Line has already taken two steps toward him. To me, this is another fault of coaching calling plays to put him in that situation, but at the same time, I wonder if it is because they do not trust him to run a pro passing attack yet.

At this point, I think the most realistic thing the team can hope for is to get in as a wild card. It is clear that Seattle has complete control of the division, at this point. The only problem is that the Panthers are now a team in the hunt for the wild card, and the Niners just lost to them. I really wish next week was not in New Orleans.

It's hard for me to put this loss on Kap's shoulders only because the passing plays that did work were never called again. That to me says coaching/scheme and that needs to stop immediately.

Yeah I agree with you. It is a pretty long-winded post (out of frustration), but I think Kap has the ability to be a top 5 QB in the league. I just don't think he is being put into a situation that will make him successful. I would love to see what McCarthy or Sean Payton could do with the weapons on this offense. It is embarrassing that the Panthers were able to put up at least a touchdown when Steve Smith is their only real strong threat.

So true Rat - and for me it goes even beyond Kap and the passing game. I'm starting to have other doubts/questions.

We've spent so many high draft picks at RB and for whatever reason we only have 1 guy on the field at one time. I don't know maybe it's me but why draft LMJ when you have Hunter and Gore? I know Lattimore supposedly will be a replacement for Gore hopefully - but why expend such high draft picks on a team that has other needs and then just let that talent be inactive with not even an attempt to incorporate them into the offense? Why are we using Miller as a receiver over LMJ? If Kyle Williams can't even make ST, then why not develop LMJ into more of a receiver? He's MUCH better than anyone else we have who can be so dangerous in space. It's as if we're locked into one offensive approach and if that doesn't work, there's no answer. Where's the creativity beyond where we are? What worked last year isn't going to work this year. Where's the new surprise? I think rather than depending on a QB to do that, this offense needs to develop other players and not just sit back and wait for Crabtree to get healthy. He's not going to be the panacea many think he will be because the overall scheme needs to change.
Originally posted by GoldenJoe:
We actually run a similar play out to Bruce Miller and have hit it a few times but good Ds have adjusted to even our most basic plays. Kap also has the stronger arm but Wilson is more shifty and puts a better touch on his throws.

You also see them utilize more of their receivers, on any play they have 3 or 4 potential targets, when Wilson scrambles, guys break off their routes to get open for him, I don't see any of that on this offense. Usually there's 1 or 2 targets on a passing playcall, if for whatever reason those guys don't get open, the play is screwed and now Kaepernick is running for his life. Its truly horrible offense.
[ Edited by Phoenix49ers on Nov 10, 2013 at 5:48 PM ]
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Originally posted by GoldenJoe:
We actually run a similar play out to Bruce Miller and have hit it a few times but good Ds have adjusted to even our most basic plays. Kap also has the stronger arm but Wilson is more shifty and puts a better touch on his throws.

You also see them utilize more of their receivers, on any play they have 3 or 4 potential targets, when Wilson scrambles, guys break off their routes to get open for him, I don't see any of that on this offense. Usually there's 1 or 2 targets on a passing playcall, if for whatever reason those guys don't get open, the play is screwed and now Kaepernick is running for his life. Its truly horrible offense.

I can't recall the last time that Kaep scrambled and had someone break off their route and come back for a first down reception. Cam had that luxury a couple of times tonight and that's all you need to extend that drive or kill off that D.
Originally posted by GoldenJoe:
I can't recall the last time that Kaep scrambled and had someone break off their route and come back for a first down reception. Cam had that luxury a couple of times tonight and that's all you need to extend that drive or kill off that D.

2 possibilities. Either Kaepernick is absolutely a moron that can barely tie his own shoes or the coaching staff, particularly the OC has no clue how to call or plan an NFL style offense.
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
2 possibilities. Either Kaepernick is absolutely a moron that can barely tie his own shoes or the coaching staff, particularly the OC has no clue how to call or plan an NFL style offense.

running they are ok

the funny thing is they don't want to run when they should.

how you line up and run pistol against a team that practices against it every week is beyond arrogance and why we have 3 losses.

the passing offense is horrible because its big chunk or nothing. no underneath no intermediate nothing.

wasting talent and time.

its really simply what should happen but it won't so expect more of the same there's a reason that nobody hired him from us and a reason they'll let us keep him right here to mess up our chances
Just watch the Sunday night game and look at what Payton/Brees do together....geez.
I have been real critical of Roman since he has got here, but to be fair, Kap just put up a worst game than AS did in his first Career start. That is f**king pathetic. I expect more. Period.
  • LVJay
  • Veteran
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It's a downright "offensive" offense... I drank too much koolaid, gave too much credit to Kap/Harbs/Roman. The bottom line is our defense will have to carry a poor offense into the playoffs, hopefully to another SB and win it this time. I might have a better chance at winning the lotto, however