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What is the real problem with this offensive offense?

What is the real problem with this offensive offense?

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
Kaepernick can't see any more than 1 and only 1 WR or TE. Then he puts his head straight down to the ground, stops looking downfield, ignores option 2, 3, 4 and tries to run. Which is far less effective this year because D have guys watching for the Kaep run.

At this point he's really useless.


You pretty much nailed it.

First of all, it is already a known fact that teams scout Kap as a "one-read" QB as pointed out by Karlos Dansby when asked to differentiate between Wilson and Kap.

Kap has a tendency to only key in on 1 guy.

As such, he never spreads the ball around which means our secondary receivers are basically useless.

In doing so, none of our young receivers are ever given even half a chance to develop and improve before they all get cut in no time.

Anquan 64 targets, Marlon 4 targets and Jon 6 targets. Can you believe that ? In other words, if your name is not Anquan or Vernon, you are pretty much deemed to be s**te.

Bottomline, it just means the 9ers' passing game is crap and incredibly easy to shut down.
Originally posted by TheRatMan13:
I was going to post this rant in a different thread, but it is probably better off here.

I don't think the entire blame should fall on Roman's shoulders because the players have to play too. Kaepernick needs to keep his head up when teams are blitzing. This has become a pattern with him. If you get to him early, he starts watching the rush instead of keeping his eyes downfield and trying to beat the blitz. Receivers need to catch the ball (MAINLY YOU VANCE MCDONALD!), and these penalties on offense that completely kill good drives need to stop (Holding on Davis, OPI on Boldin). When the game is tight, backs need to hold onto the ball. It seems that any time there is a tight game like this, the Niners can look back to a key fumble by a RB. I have seen Gore, Hunter, and James all do it at the most crucial part of a game.

But back to Greg Roman's offense. The things I saw today are really disappointing because I feel like we have watched the same type of game for three straight year. If you look back at every loss in the Harbaugh era, the games play out very similar. The Niners have lost a total of 12 games including playoffs. Looking back at the teams they have lost to: Cowboys, Ravens, Cardinals, Giants, Seahawks, Vikings, Rams, Colts, and now the Panthers; the majority of those games were lost because the other team showed up playing the same style of football, and beat the Niners doing it. The defense played well in most of those games, but the offense is what is the scary part. They have averaged just over 13 points per game.

The reason I have such a problem with Greg Roman is because it feels like there really is just no back up plan with the passing attack if it does not go how he expected in the film room. Obviously, I am not able to break down film to see what it is that is trying to be accomplished, but I do know that when you get into passing situations against defenses that have been bringing heavy pressure all game, the best way to expose that is to throw where they are not (pretty simple, right?). We have some of the most capable RBs in the league to throw to out of the backfield, but they are never used. We have two TEs that can move and out muscle smaller defenders, and we now have our receiving corps starting to get healthy. Why is it that the backs, and TEs not named Vernon Davis, are not used more creatively?

In passing situations, it seems like it is always the same. The offense sets up with either a read-option look with 3 backs, who are there solely to block, or it is an empty back set. On one hand, the defense knows that none of the backs are going to be big threats out of the backfield because there is almost ZERO film of that ever happening in three years. On the other hand, your receivers are running routes that take too long to develop, so you put your young QB in a position where he either has to make time to wait for one of his two receiving options to get open, or he takes a terrible sack. A lot of times, that happens on second down, which explains the terrible 3rd down conversion percentages.

As for Kap, I have seen a few things mentioned on this board that are very bothersome. First, I don't think I have ever seen him studying the previous drives on the sideline. This might be overstated, but if that is the case, then I do not know why the coaches do not have him doing this. Today when the Panthers sent pressure right in his face, he might have seen that it was coming from his right over and over, and maybe he finds a hole in the defense from where they just blitzed out of. Again, I could be wrong about that, but it does bother me that other QBs get better as the game goes on, and I never have any hope that ours is going to take us down the field with his arm the the game's last few minutes.

The second thing I saw mentioned was that the read option always has his eyes looking at the line instead of down field. I never noticed it before, but when they run the fake read-option pass plays, he is always staring down the end instead of looking downfield. In order to sell the read option fake, he has no choice but to look down, and I think that is really hindering his ability to make his downfield reads to the receivers. When he drops back and just throws, he can be lethal, but with that fake, he doesn't start looking downfield until the D-Line has already taken two steps toward him. To me, this is another fault of coaching calling plays to put him in that situation, but at the same time, I wonder if it is because they do not trust him to run a pro passing attack yet.

At this point, I think the most realistic thing the team can hope for is to get in as a wild card. It is clear that Seattle has complete control of the division, at this point. The only problem is that the Panthers are now a team in the hunt for the wild card, and the Niners just lost to them. I really wish next week was not in New Orleans.

It's hard for me to put this loss on Kap's shoulders only because the passing plays that did work were never called again. That to me says coaching/scheme and that needs to stop immediately.
Originally posted by Rascal:
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
Kaepernick can't see any more than 1 and only 1 WR or TE. Then he puts his head straight down to the ground, stops looking downfield, ignores option 2, 3, 4 and tries to run. Which is far less effective this year because D have guys watching for the Kaep run.

At this point he's really useless.


You pretty much nailed it.

First of all, it is already a known fact that teams scout Kap as a "one-read" QB as pointed out by Karlos Dansby when asked to differentiate between Wilson and Kap.

Kap has a tendency to only key in on 1 guy.

As such, he never spreads the ball around which means our secondary receivers are basically useless.

In doing so, none of our young receivers are ever given even half a chance to develop and improve before they all get cut in no time.

Anquan 64 targets, Marlon 4 targets and Jon 6 targets. Can you believe that ? In other words, if your name is not Anquan or Vernon, you are pretty much deemed to be s**te.

Bottomline, it just means the 9ers' passing game is crap and incredibly easy to shut down.

I agree. It is easy to shut down.
Originally posted by Antix:
I think its passing concepts/Greg Roman. Whoever designs or is in charge of passing (prob the WR coach) needs to be fired or put on notice. I feel Harbaugh is too loyal to do that. Somebody needs to be held accountable though. When we were getting pressured we never adjusted. No shallow crosses or quick slants. Our passing design is terrible.

This. Something has to be done now.
It's sad but I think this offense is missing Moss, and D. Walker at this moment. I believe that not having another legit WR besides Crabtree have cost us two potential Super Bowl in the past two seasons and now it is biting us in the azz again. We need another receiver who is a threat to hit a home run. Without that, we are relying on Davis too often and if he's out, we are just incapable of winning games through the air. We are wasting away our window by not seriously addressing our WR issues.
We need to draft a WR well in the upcoming draft that will scare defense.

With that said, I'm hoping Roman gets a head coaching gig. It's time to move on. I wouldn't mind if Rathman a shot and let him run WCO.
[ Edited by sacleads on Nov 10, 2013 at 5:40 PM ]
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by TheRatMan13:
I was going to post this rant in a different thread, but it is probably better off here.

I don't think the entire blame should fall on Roman's shoulders because the players have to play too. Kaepernick needs to keep his head up when teams are blitzing. This has become a pattern with him. If you get to him early, he starts watching the rush instead of keeping his eyes downfield and trying to beat the blitz. Receivers need to catch the ball (MAINLY YOU VANCE MCDONALD!), and these penalties on offense that completely kill good drives need to stop (Holding on Davis, OPI on Boldin). When the game is tight, backs need to hold onto the ball. It seems that any time there is a tight game like this, the Niners can look back to a key fumble by a RB. I have seen Gore, Hunter, and James all do it at the most crucial part of a game.

But back to Greg Roman's offense. The things I saw today are really disappointing because I feel like we have watched the same type of game for three straight year. If you look back at every loss in the Harbaugh era, the games play out very similar. The Niners have lost a total of 12 games including playoffs. Looking back at the teams they have lost to: Cowboys, Ravens, Cardinals, Giants, Seahawks, Vikings, Rams, Colts, and now the Panthers; the majority of those games were lost because the other team showed up playing the same style of football, and beat the Niners doing it. The defense played well in most of those games, but the offense is what is the scary part. They have averaged just over 13 points per game.

The reason I have such a problem with Greg Roman is because it feels like there really is just no back up plan with the passing attack if it does not go how he expected in the film room. Obviously, I am not able to break down film to see what it is that is trying to be accomplished, but I do know that when you get into passing situations against defenses that have been bringing heavy pressure all game, the best way to expose that is to throw where they are not (pretty simple, right?). We have some of the most capable RBs in the league to throw to out of the backfield, but they are never used. We have two TEs that can move and out muscle smaller defenders, and we now have our receiving corps starting to get healthy. Why is it that the backs, and TEs not named Vernon Davis, are not used more creatively?

In passing situations, it seems like it is always the same. The offense sets up with either a read-option look with 3 backs, who are there solely to block, or it is an empty back set. On one hand, the defense knows that none of the backs are going to be big threats out of the backfield because there is almost ZERO film of that ever happening in three years. On the other hand, your receivers are running routes that take too long to develop, so you put your young QB in a position where he either has to make time to wait for one of his two receiving options to get open, or he takes a terrible sack. A lot of times, that happens on second down, which explains the terrible 3rd down conversion percentages.

As for Kap, I have seen a few things mentioned on this board that are very bothersome. First, I don't think I have ever seen him studying the previous drives on the sideline. This might be overstated, but if that is the case, then I do not know why the coaches do not have him doing this. Today when the Panthers sent pressure right in his face, he might have seen that it was coming from his right over and over, and maybe he finds a hole in the defense from where they just blitzed out of. Again, I could be wrong about that, but it does bother me that other QBs get better as the game goes on, and I never have any hope that ours is going to take us down the field with his arm the the game's last few minutes.

The second thing I saw mentioned was that the read option always has his eyes looking at the line instead of down field. I never noticed it before, but when they run the fake read-option pass plays, he is always staring down the end instead of looking downfield. In order to sell the read option fake, he has no choice but to look down, and I think that is really hindering his ability to make his downfield reads to the receivers. When he drops back and just throws, he can be lethal, but with that fake, he doesn't start looking downfield until the D-Line has already taken two steps toward him. To me, this is another fault of coaching calling plays to put him in that situation, but at the same time, I wonder if it is because they do not trust him to run a pro passing attack yet.

At this point, I think the most realistic thing the team can hope for is to get in as a wild card. It is clear that Seattle has complete control of the division, at this point. The only problem is that the Panthers are now a team in the hunt for the wild card, and the Niners just lost to them. I really wish next week was not in New Orleans.

It's hard for me to put this loss on Kap's shoulders only because the passing plays that did work were never called again. That to me says coaching/scheme and that needs to stop immediately.

Yeah I agree with you. It is a pretty long-winded post (out of frustration), but I think Kap has the ability to be a top 5 QB in the league. I just don't think he is being put into a situation that will make him successful. I would love to see what McCarthy or Sean Payton could do with the weapons on this offense. It is embarrassing that the Panthers were able to put up at least a touchdown when Steve Smith is their only real strong threat.
Originally posted by sacleads:
It's sad but I think this offense is missing Moss, and D. Walker at this moment. I believe that not having another legit WR besides Crabtree have cost us two potential Super Bowl in the past two seasons and now it is biting us in the azz again. We need another receiver who is a threat to hit a home run. Without that, we are relying on Davis too often and if he's out, we are just incapable of winning games through the air. We are wasting away our window by not seriously addressing our WR issues.

We need to draft a WR well in the upcoming draft.

They didn't plan well at WR, but what is the point, do they need more WR's to be blockers downfield or what? Its obvious they have no real intent to utilize anyone but VD and Boldin, defenses know this and they key in on those guys.
Originally posted by Rascal:
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
Kaepernick can't see any more than 1 and only 1 WR or TE. Then he puts his head straight down to the ground, stops looking downfield, ignores option 2, 3, 4 and tries to run. Which is far less effective this year because D have guys watching for the Kaep run.

At this point he's really useless.


You pretty much nailed it.

First of all, it is already a known fact that teams scout Kap as a "one-read" QB as pointed out by Karlos Dansby when asked to differentiate between Wilson and Kap.

Kap has a tendency to only key in on 1 guy.

As such, he never spreads the ball around which means our secondary receivers are basically useless.

In doing so, none of our young receivers are ever given even half a chance to develop and improve before they all get cut in no time.

Anquan 64 targets, Marlon 4 targets and Jon 6 targets. Can you believe that ? In other words, if your name is not Anquan or Vernon, you are pretty much deemed to be s**te.

Bottomline, it just means the 9ers' passing game is crap and incredibly easy to shut down.

You do understand that this offense is designed this way - it was the same exact design when Alex Smith was here - the only difference is that he was a terrible scrambler so the coaches kept a RB in as a checkdown. That's been replaced - now the RB is kept in to block. So if it's a question of shutting down Kap, it also should be a question about the entire scheme/philosophy of this college offense.
[ Edited by NinerGM on Nov 10, 2013 at 5:40 PM ]
Originally posted by TheRatMan13:
Yeah I agree with you. It is a pretty long-winded post (out of frustration), but I think Kap has the ability to be a top 5 QB in the league. I just don't think he is being put into a situation that will make him successful. I would love to see what McCarthy or Sean Payton could do with the weapons on this offense. It is embarrassing that the Panthers were able to put up at least a touchdown when Steve Smith is their only real strong threat.

Its really embarrassing that the Panthers are utilizing Ted Ginn in their offense when this coaching staff failed to do the same for 2 seasons.
Kaepernick

He only has one type of throw: speeding bullet.
He locks onto his first target...doesn't go through his progression.
greg roman /thread
Originally posted by tohara3:
Originally posted by Antix:
I think its passing concepts/Greg Roman. Whoever designs or is in charge of passing (prob the WR coach) needs to be fired or put on notice. I feel Harbaugh is too loyal to do that. Somebody needs to be held accountable though. When we were getting pressured we never adjusted. No shallow crosses or quick slants. Our passing design is terrible.

This. Something has to be done now.
What I don't understand, is, when I watch Seattle games, I constantly see what appears to be excellent playcalling. Now, it's totally possible that Roman calls good plays and Kaep just blows them, but ...

Seemingly 4-5 plays a game, Seattle runs a play like this: immediately after the snap, Wilson rolls out of the pocket to the right; Zach Miller runs with him, and heads about 2-3 yard downfield into the flats, and then runs parallel to Wilson. Almost always, a linebacker is in the flats waiting. The linebacker either needs to pursue Wilson (exposing a wide open Miller), or cover Miller, which frees up running room for Wilson. Wilson is a good QB, there's no doubt about that. It also seems like he has a lot of freebie plays like that though. Why do we not see the same thing?

Again, it's either bad playcalling, or Wilson is that much better than Kaep, to the point that he makes it look easy.
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
LOL....this. People are stupid if they are blaming this all on Kaepernick. That pass was absolutely perfect, he couldn't have walked down the field and handed the ball off to him any better. Is it Kaepernick's fault that Carolina was beating down the offensive line like a bunch of ugly red-headed stepchildren? He spent half the time running for his life. Seeing that Carolina was bringing the heat, was Kaepernick the one calling long-developing passes, 7 step drops instead of utilizing slants and screens to back off an aggressive defense?

I'm amazed that after watching this offense since 2011, people still can't seem the common link for all this teams struggles. The playcalling on offense is not up to par for the NFL, it might work for college football but good defenses are sniffing it out and jumping all over it. The problem is that these guys find something that works, and then they beat it to death, continuing to run it long after defenses have adapted. The constant use of the read option when it has rarely been effective this season is puzzling as hell. The lack of flow, rhyme or reason to the offensive gamecalling has been scandalous.



How many more games do people have to watch, how many more horrible performances against good defenses will it take before something clicks. You want a new QB, f**k it, get a new QB, this offense will still be s**t, 100% guaranteed as long as Roman is around.


As long as you end up with only 1 or 2 actual targets on most passing routes, this is what the offense will continue to look like against better teams, as long as the playcalling continues to be utterly predictable and the team fails to utilize all its various weapons, this is the best you can expect, solid beatdowns against lousy teams, particularly those who can't stop the run, and awful performances against good defenses.

You saved me a bunch of typing.

This is a college offense. Has been since Harbaugh arrived. It won't change until he leaves…or gets his faced rubbed in it enough that he is forced to change.
It took our staff this long to get LMJ back to returning punts....I get that they didn't trust him after last year's shaky preseason but they're reticent to change. The only thing Harbs really wanted to do and went through with immediately was naming Kap as the starter after one solid game.
Anyone else remember this?
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/01/07/harbaugh-we-will-install-the-west-coast-offense/
So was the dude flat out lying or does he even know what the west coast offense is? That abomination he put on the field today doesn't resemble WCO on its best day and I am offended that they could be mentioned in the same breath. Don't paint your Ford Escort red and try telling me it's a Ferrari, dude.