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What is the real problem with this offensive offense?

What is the real problem with this offensive offense?

Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by Joecool:
http://www.ninersnation.com/2013/11/13/5099328/49ers-panthers-all-22-images-offense-kaepernick

Notice all the zone coverage being played by CAR in those All-22 stills (except for in the red zone). All the CBs are looking at Kap, some have their hips turned ready to run downfield. The CBs were always preventing the deep pass, never in a trail position, and always playing over the top of the WRs. Comeback patterns were available. It seems CAR was forcing Kap to dink and dunk, something he has not shown the willingness to do.

Through 3 quarters Kap was 9/13 for 60+ yds. He was dinking and dunking for the majority of the game.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by Joecool:
http://www.ninersnation.com/2013/11/13/5099328/49ers-panthers-all-22-images-offense-kaepernick

Notice all the zone coverage being played by CAR in those All-22 stills (except for in the red zone). All the CBs are looking at Kap, some have their hips turned ready to run downfield. The CBs were always preventing the deep pass, never in a trail position, and always playing over the top of the WRs. Comeback patterns were available. It seems CAR was forcing Kap to dink and dunk, something he has not shown the willingness to do.

This is the biggest issue of our offense, IMO: it's Kap. But that was expected, right?

A pattern I have seen against teams that have very good front 7's is that we DON'T call more dink-dunk type plays. When we beat Seattle last year (first game...we threw the game plan out the window and Alex beat 'em with this...simple flares behind the DL to Walker, Gore, etc.). Now, Seattle again, Indy to a degree, certainly Carolina, the game plan to beat these teams is, quite simply, to dink and dunk them to death, which ironically, is right in line with our philosophy: Win the TOP game, keep their O on the bench, add a rsted great defense and ST with field position. Done.

Nope, we're doing 7 step, all-go patterns facing a blitzing, dominant front 7. Brilliant. It took 2 weeks to come up with this game plan?
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by Joecool:
http://www.ninersnation.com/2013/11/13/5099328/49ers-panthers-all-22-images-offense-kaepernick

Notice all the zone coverage being played by CAR in those All-22 stills (except for in the red zone). All the CBs are looking at Kap, some have their hips turned ready to run downfield. The CBs were always preventing the deep pass, never in a trail position, and always playing over the top of the WRs. Comeback patterns were available. It seems CAR was forcing Kap to dink and dunk, something he has not shown the willingness to do.

This is the biggest issue of our offense, IMO: it's Kap. But that was expected, right?

A pattern I have seen against teams that have very good front 7's is that we DON'T call more dink-dunk type plays. When we beat Seattle last year (first game...we threw the game plan out the window and Alex beat 'em with this...simple flares behind the DL to Walker, Gore, etc.). Now, Seattle again, Indy to a degree, certainly Carolina, the game plan to beat these teams is, quite simply, to dink and dunk them to death, which ironically, is right in line with our philosophy: Win the TOP game, keep their O on the bench, add a rsted great defense and ST with field position. Done.

Nope, we're doing 7 step, all-go patterns facing a blitzing, dominant front 7. Brilliant. It took 2 weeks to come up with this game plan?

I saw quite a few underneath routes to RB's that were not thrown to. Kap is not checking down. We went from one extreme to another: too many check-downs to not enough. Not enough has allowed us to blow out inferior talent but superior defenses won't make mistakes so you must take what you can get first and then the defense will start moving.
Originally posted by sking20854:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by Joecool:
http://www.ninersnation.com/2013/11/13/5099328/49ers-panthers-all-22-images-offense-kaepernick

Notice all the zone coverage being played by CAR in those All-22 stills (except for in the red zone). All the CBs are looking at Kap, some have their hips turned ready to run downfield. The CBs were always preventing the deep pass, never in a trail position, and always playing over the top of the WRs. Comeback patterns were available. It seems CAR was forcing Kap to dink and dunk, something he has not shown the willingness to do.

Through 3 quarters Kap was 9/13 for 60+ yds. He was dinking and dunking for the majority of the game.

Thanks for that. CAR was not going to get beat on deep throws. That was their MO on defense on that day. It was the sacks that hurt the 49ers more than anything. Those numbers you posted do suggest that Kap was throwing short. Because that was the only play available in most cases.
Originally posted by NCommand:
A pattern I have seen against teams that have very good front 7's is that we DON'T call more dink-dunk type plays. When we beat Seattle last year (first game...we threw the game plan out the window and Alex beat 'em with this...simple flares behind the DL to Walker, Gore, etc.). Now, Seattle again, Indy to a degree, certainly Carolina, the game plan to beat these teams is, quite simply, to dink and dunk them to death, which ironically, is right in line with our philosophy: Win the TOP game, keep their O on the bench, add a rsted great defense and ST with field position. Done.

Nope, we're doing 7 step, all-go patterns facing a blitzing, dominant front 7. Brilliant. It took 2 weeks to come up with this game plan?

its really that simple.
stubborn and arrogant.
instead of using all the personnel we have to be a truly fluid and hybrid offense. roman intentionally limits the team into something anyone can game plan for.
vd deep, boldin intermediate, run with gore. and he enjoys trying to achieve these things in spite of the defense knowing they're coming. instead of changing things around and making the team impossible to plan for.
he's a complete idiot passing wise. period. didn't even have the common sense to keep the offense that was working with the quick passing and getting us down the field. did not have the sense to even do that.
Originally posted by thl408:
Thanks for that. CAR was not going to get beat on deep throws. That was their MO on defense on that day. It was the sacks that hurt the 49ers more than anything. Those numbers you posted do suggest that Kap was throwing short. Because that was the only play available in most cases.

in response we should have ran the ball and dinked and dunked. keep everything in front of you, ok. we get first downs move the chains and now we're in field goal position. its really that simple
I remember when John Elway came into the league, the first couple of years he had a very tough time with the shorter touch passes. Guess what? So does Kaepernick. I hope and pray that Harbaugh/Roman learned something from the last game. Kaepernick simply doesn't have enough time to execute 7 drop passes. I agree with the other posters, we NEED to develop the dink and dunk but make no mistake, this will test CK because it's not his strength.

Obviously the return of Crabtree should help but we need to get Baldwin and Boldin using those big bodies to body up defenders and excel at the 5-10 yard pass. Even more pressure on Roman to draw up these types of plays.

At this point in time, if Roman doesn't change the play calling.....he's toast.
Awful hard to throw a short pass when nobody is running a short route and your in a 7 step drop.
Originally posted by PhillyNiner:
Awful hard to throw a short pass when nobody is running a short route and your in a 7 step drop.

And when you have defenders rushing the QB unblocked. The scheme does not even give players the freedom to adjust their routes to account for the blitz or coverage. At least that's what it looks like.
Yup it looks like you guys are getting it.

I bet Roman/Harbaugh came into the game thinking Carolina was going to be game planned against stopping the run heavy and short game because that is what we have done lately, and decided our game plan would be to go long to outsmart them.

Well they outsmarted us and we didn't adjust.

They thought we would try long and we did, played right into their hands.

That certainly was recognized by Roman/Harbaugh early on but they simply did little to adjust the plan.

They often make great half time adjustments.

This time, very little.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by Joecool:
http://www.ninersnation.com/2013/11/13/5099328/49ers-panthers-all-22-images-offense-kaepernick

Notice all the zone coverage being played by CAR in those All-22 stills (except for in the red zone). All the CBs are looking at Kap, some have their hips turned ready to run downfield. The CBs were always preventing the deep pass, never in a trail position, and always playing over the top of the WRs. Comeback patterns were available. It seems CAR was forcing Kap to dink and dunk, something he has not shown the willingness to do.

This is the biggest issue of our offense, IMO: it's Kap. But that was expected, right?

A pattern I have seen against teams that have very good front 7's is that we DON'T call more dink-dunk type plays. When we beat Seattle last year (first game...we threw the game plan out the window and Alex beat 'em with this...simple flares behind the DL to Walker, Gore, etc.). Now, Seattle again, Indy to a degree, certainly Carolina, the game plan to beat these teams is, quite simply, to dink and dunk them to death, which ironically, is right in line with our philosophy: Win the TOP game, keep their O on the bench, add a rsted great defense and ST with field position. Done.

Nope, we're doing 7 step, all-go patterns facing a blitzing, dominant front 7. Brilliant. It took 2 weeks to come up with this game plan?

I saw quite a few underneath routes to RB's that were not thrown to. Kap is not checking down. We went from one extreme to another: too many check-downs to not enough. Not enough has allowed us to blow out inferior talent but superior defenses won't make mistakes so you must take what you can get first and then the defense will start moving.

True but none were the AR, therefore, they won't get even a look unless CK is forced to scramble and is off and running (of which those RB's usually become blockers for him instead). No progression routes built in...
[ Edited by NCommand on Nov 15, 2013 at 6:19 AM ]
Well here we are, may as well top this as it's got most of the thinking in it.

Once again the opposing defense stuffed the box to stop the run on our obvious run plays. Yet we continued to run Gore up the gut on 1st down - often with miller in there as a big neon sign to tell the defense where we were going.

On our obvious pass plays, the defense went man coverage, doubling Vernon. We continued to go with one designated "AR" (annointed receiver) with the other receivers running decoys or blocking. Examples: the 2 TD's and the Baldwin drop, there was only one read on those designed plays - Kap did miss an open Boldin in the endzone on one play,. but more and more I am sure he is being coached to throw to his first read and trust them to make a play. Example: the incompletion to Baldwin, but he didn't even know he was getting the ball it seems.

We continued with deep dropbacks in our own 20 on obvious pass plays when our Oline couldn't hold the rush. Again we gave up a sack with a rusher coming through the middle untouched.

Again no signs of slants or screens. No check down or safety throw for Kap, except Miller on one occasion but he's not a receiving threat.

We continued with 2TE, 2backs and 1WR sets with abysmal play calling.

We continued trying to adjust late before the snap. We had that horrible motion play that utterly failed with 3 people in motuion to the same point, which we then ran at for no gain.

Our offense was so predictable that the NO defense (as have others) were signalling where the ball was going before we snapped and blowing it up.

And oh yes, we continued to not make any adjustments at all.

Einstein's definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
[ Edited by Buchy on Nov 18, 2013 at 3:39 AM ]
Our offense IS ground-hog day.

What was it, -7 yards of offense in the 4Q?
Just recycle these past 27 pages. No reason to keep stirring the same old mash.

One example of the coaching component is the continued horrible game and time management. Two absolutely brain-dead challenges made Harbaugh and his staff look like raw amateurs. Of course those "challenges" only served to put a white-hot spot light on the fact this offense has no idea what it is supposed to do on far too many plays. ON THE SECOND PLAY OF THE GAME, Kaep was forced to burn a time out because they didn't know what to do. Ridiculous! Even a high school team should be able to remember what to do on the second play of the game. That, plus Harbaugh's two brain farts resulted in the 49ers having nothing to work with later in the half when, once again, the play came in late and Kaepernick couldn't get everyone lined up correctly and they had to take a delay penalty.

Harbaugh has claimed he spent a lot of time listening to Walsh while at Stanford. I am beginning to doubt it. If he had, he would have learned the benefit of scripting 15-25 plays at the beginning of the game. Not only does that give a chance to test out the range of the game plan, it also gives the offense confidence to focus on execution rather than all the trickery and gimmicks this offense seems to be built upon. If Harbaugh really did spend time with Walsh, his long term memory must have failed him. There is no part of this team that looks ANYTHING like the teams Bill Walsh coached, or even George Seifert for that matter.

Time to put the blame where it belongs.

…but then I am back to just regurgitating what we did all last week…and the week before that.
[ Edited by dj43 on Nov 18, 2013 at 9:31 AM ]
Originally posted by dj43:
Just recycle these past 27 pages. No reason to keep stirring the same old mash.

One example of the coaching component is the continued horrible game and time management. Two absolutely brain-dead challenges made Harbaugh and his staff look like raw amateurs. Of course those "challenges" only served to put a white-hot spot light on the fact this offense has no idea what it is supposed to do on far too many plays. ON THE SECOND PLAY OF THE GAME, Kaep was forced to burn a time out because they didn't know what to do. Ridiculous. Even a high school team should be able to remember what to do and the second play of the game. That, plus Harbaugh's two brain farts resulted in the 49ers having nothing to work with later in the half when, once again, the play came in late and Kaepernick couldn't get everyone lined up correctly.

Harbaugh has claimed he spent a lot of time listening to Walsh while at Stanford. I am beginning to doubt it. If he had, he would have learned the benefit of scripting 15-25 plays at the beginning of the game. Not only does that give a chance to test out the range of the game plan, it also gives the offense confidence to focus on execution rather than all the trickery and gimmicks this offense seems to be built upon. If Harbaugh really did spend time with Walsh, his long term memory must have failed him. There is no part of this team that looks ANYTHING like the teams Bill Walsh coached, or even George Seifert for that matter.

Time to put the blame where it belongs.

…but then I am back to just regurgitating what we did all last week…and the week before that.

I was JUST going to say this...if this isn't positive proof that we DON'T script plays, this is it. Period.