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What is the real problem with this offensive offense?

What is the real problem with this offensive offense?

Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Buchy:
Originally posted by Jakemall:
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
- the playcalling shouldn't get away from the run when it is working.. otherwise, it is fine and being scapegoated for poor player execution...

- I don't think it is at all as simple as to suggest that when Miller trots onto the field, we are showing our hand in running intent...

- RZ confidence and aggression is low, and the coaches need to go for it on 4th and goal in situations like the Carolina game...

- The weapons are fine... WRs/TEs can make up for lack of speed with sharp double moves, convincing play-action, and jump-ball situations that they are simply not getting chances to make.


- the biggest problem is that the 2012 Kaep is not showing himself. In 2012, he was having fun and relaxed. 2013 Kaep seems remarkably stressed and tense. He seems afraid to make a mistake... and his hesitations are causing him to not release the ball... not find open targets... and he is overly reliant on his athleticism to evade and escape the pocket to run. Well, defenses are being more disciplined, and those runs are not nearly as effective.

He CAN get this worked out. He HAS the ability to be a star. He just needs to relax... and better learn to trust his targets and what he sees from the D-coverage.

I believe in him... but while he is struggling through these issues, I refuse to blame everyone around him just because I am desperate to believe he is the Chosen One. And I do pray he is the Chosen One... because the only thing that would tick me off more than "my guy" being replaced by the Chosen One??? is that "my guy" was replaced by a fraud.

This.


I think you are labouring under a mis-understanding that I think Kap is an elite QB. He's not, he could be but he's not there yet. I am not an Alex hater, he had my full support while he played for us, and I have pointed out that the struggles on our offense actually are the same now as when Alex was QB. Our Oline was terrible against the blitz forcing Alex to eat a lot of sacks against the Ravens in 2011 and the Giants in 2012.

That is why I am pointing them out, because they are issues and concerns that have been seen before with a different QB and we had the same issues moving the ball. The porous O Line when pass blocking, the designated receiver - in 2011 Crabtree had 72 catches, Vernon 67 and next up was Williams with 20....

As I said in my post, trotting Miller on means it's almost always a run, but more than that because he doesn't have the pace Walker has we cannot use him with the same versatility, therefore the other team can still put 8 in the box and cover Miller if he leaks out as a check down.
They obviously are two very different QBs yet the offense still struggles. Does that suggest a coaching issue as much as a player issue?

When Smith did not "throw a receiver open" he was chastised for not throwing it away or taking a sack. Now Kaepernick is hesitant when he has a receiver open he is taking sacks and sometimes throwing it away. Same issue.

Everyone from Ray Ratto to Santa Claus (I can't think of any two more different) is blaming lack of quality receivers but Jonathan Baldwin caught 41 passes in two years in KC but can't even get on the field. He has been stuck behind Kyle Williams who is no longer on the team. If Matt Cassell can complete passes to Baldwin, what is wrong with Colin Kaepernick.

I believe a good part of the blame rests on The Great Quarterback Whisperer, Jim Harbaugh. I am no longer buying his resume. Josh Johnson was pretty good at San Diego but couldn't buy a seat on the bus in the NFL. Apparently what Harbaugh taught him had limitations. Andrew Luck was the best HS QB in the nation and he chose Stanford for academics as well as football (2 degrees IIRC). He had a great career there basically marshaling a college power running game with some nice passing. He had two years with Harbaugh and one with Dennis Shaw, during all of which he looked pretty much the same. Now he is with Indy and still doing great. I question how much of his success is credited to Harbaugh. Everyone talks about how Jim Harbaugh "saved" Alex Smith's career when all he did was recognize that Alex was the best option available, and he turned out to be a good one. However, any decent observer will record that Smith's career turned around when Mike Johnson replaced Jimmy Raye, not when Jim Harbaugh arrived. Alex was the same Alex before Harbaugh and is the same one now.

Now we come to Colin Kaepernick who is in his third year and is still having some of the same recognition problems he had in the first games we saw him play here. Yes, getting Crabtree back may help but he has had other receivers open yet failed to spot them and deliver the ball. So I am calling out Harbaugh to prove he is The Great Quarterback Whisperer. If Kaepernick was his handpicked guy (although rumor has it he would have preferred Andy Dalton) then it is time for him to make His Guy into the player we were led to believe he could be. Put a system on the field that includes multiple receivers that are in position to catch the ball, including short safety valves that take the pressure off the QB and allow him to develop.

Yes, the OL has allowed a lot of sacks but any system that spins around 5 and 7 step drops is going to put a lot of pressure in the OL. Go to quick drops with passing plays designed to beat pressure. This isn't rocket science. Just watch what Payton does in NO.

Yes, WR is a relative weakness but when Green Bay lost Finley and Cobb, Andrew Quarless and Jarrett Boykin step in and the machine rolls on. Kyle Williams may have been a false hope (although Alex Smith found him on occasion) but Baldwin shouldn't be. Time to look into the coaches lounge instead of just looking at players. We have become predictable and one-dimensional. Only one area to put that blame.

I'm starting to believe this because the evidence is starting to pile up and the results are irrefutable.

This week is going to be the ultimate test to see if they can get more creative in the passing attack. For as good as the defense has played, the offense is going to need to score, and Rob Ryan will be sending the house at Kaepernick until he and the coaches figure out a way to counter.

If they lose this week, I think the playoffs are going to be a dog fight to get into. Arizona seems to be getting on track, and playing in AZ is always tough, so the offense will need to be able to score there too. Now, all of a sudden, the rest of this schedule does not look so easy.
Originally posted by TheRatMan13:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Buchy:
Originally posted by Jakemall:
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
- the playcalling shouldn't get away from the run when it is working.. otherwise, it is fine and being scapegoated for poor player execution...

- I don't think it is at all as simple as to suggest that when Miller trots onto the field, we are showing our hand in running intent...

- RZ confidence and aggression is low, and the coaches need to go for it on 4th and goal in situations like the Carolina game...

- The weapons are fine... WRs/TEs can make up for lack of speed with sharp double moves, convincing play-action, and jump-ball situations that they are simply not getting chances to make.


- the biggest problem is that the 2012 Kaep is not showing himself. In 2012, he was having fun and relaxed. 2013 Kaep seems remarkably stressed and tense. He seems afraid to make a mistake... and his hesitations are causing him to not release the ball... not find open targets... and he is overly reliant on his athleticism to evade and escape the pocket to run. Well, defenses are being more disciplined, and those runs are not nearly as effective.

He CAN get this worked out. He HAS the ability to be a star. He just needs to relax... and better learn to trust his targets and what he sees from the D-coverage.

I believe in him... but while he is struggling through these issues, I refuse to blame everyone around him just because I am desperate to believe he is the Chosen One. And I do pray he is the Chosen One... because the only thing that would tick me off more than "my guy" being replaced by the Chosen One??? is that "my guy" was replaced by a fraud.

This.


I think you are labouring under a mis-understanding that I think Kap is an elite QB. He's not, he could be but he's not there yet. I am not an Alex hater, he had my full support while he played for us, and I have pointed out that the struggles on our offense actually are the same now as when Alex was QB. Our Oline was terrible against the blitz forcing Alex to eat a lot of sacks against the Ravens in 2011 and the Giants in 2012.

That is why I am pointing them out, because they are issues and concerns that have been seen before with a different QB and we had the same issues moving the ball. The porous O Line when pass blocking, the designated receiver - in 2011 Crabtree had 72 catches, Vernon 67 and next up was Williams with 20....

As I said in my post, trotting Miller on means it's almost always a run, but more than that because he doesn't have the pace Walker has we cannot use him with the same versatility, therefore the other team can still put 8 in the box and cover Miller if he leaks out as a check down.
They obviously are two very different QBs yet the offense still struggles. Does that suggest a coaching issue as much as a player issue?

When Smith did not "throw a receiver open" he was chastised for not throwing it away or taking a sack. Now Kaepernick is hesitant when he has a receiver open he is taking sacks and sometimes throwing it away. Same issue.

Everyone from Ray Ratto to Santa Claus (I can't think of any two more different) is blaming lack of quality receivers but Jonathan Baldwin caught 41 passes in two years in KC but can't even get on the field. He has been stuck behind Kyle Williams who is no longer on the team. If Matt Cassell can complete passes to Baldwin, what is wrong with Colin Kaepernick.

I believe a good part of the blame rests on The Great Quarterback Whisperer, Jim Harbaugh. I am no longer buying his resume. Josh Johnson was pretty good at San Diego but couldn't buy a seat on the bus in the NFL. Apparently what Harbaugh taught him had limitations. Andrew Luck was the best HS QB in the nation and he chose Stanford for academics as well as football (2 degrees IIRC). He had a great career there basically marshaling a college power running game with some nice passing. He had two years with Harbaugh and one with Dennis Shaw, during all of which he looked pretty much the same. Now he is with Indy and still doing great. I question how much of his success is credited to Harbaugh. Everyone talks about how Jim Harbaugh "saved" Alex Smith's career when all he did was recognize that Alex was the best option available, and he turned out to be a good one. However, any decent observer will record that Smith's career turned around when Mike Johnson replaced Jimmy Raye, not when Jim Harbaugh arrived. Alex was the same Alex before Harbaugh and is the same one now.

Now we come to Colin Kaepernick who is in his third year and is still having some of the same recognition problems he had in the first games we saw him play here. Yes, getting Crabtree back may help but he has had other receivers open yet failed to spot them and deliver the ball. So I am calling out Harbaugh to prove he is The Great Quarterback Whisperer. If Kaepernick was his handpicked guy (although rumor has it he would have preferred Andy Dalton) then it is time for him to make His Guy into the player we were led to believe he could be. Put a system on the field that includes multiple receivers that are in position to catch the ball, including short safety valves that take the pressure off the QB and allow him to develop.

Yes, the OL has allowed a lot of sacks but any system that spins around 5 and 7 step drops is going to put a lot of pressure in the OL. Go to quick drops with passing plays designed to beat pressure. This isn't rocket science. Just watch what Payton does in NO.

Yes, WR is a relative weakness but when Green Bay lost Finley and Cobb, Andrew Quarless and Jarrett Boykin step in and the machine rolls on. Kyle Williams may have been a false hope (although Alex Smith found him on occasion) but Baldwin shouldn't be. Time to look into the coaches lounge instead of just looking at players. We have become predictable and one-dimensional. Only one area to put that blame.

I'm starting to believe this because the evidence is starting to pile up and the results are irrefutable.

This week is going to be the ultimate test to see if they can get more creative in the passing attack. For as good as the defense has played, the offense is going to need to score, and Rob Ryan will be sending the house at Kaepernick until he and the coaches figure out a way to counter.

If they lose this week, I think the playoffs are going to be a dog fight to get into. Arizona seems to be getting on track, and playing in AZ is always tough, so the offense will need to be able to score there too. Now, all of a sudden, the rest of this schedule does not look so easy.

Actually, Ryan does not blitz all the much. What he does, and it will be problematic for Kaepernick based on the past, is that he disguises coverages very well. When he does blitz, that also is very well disguised. Ryan is a very good DC despite all the drama in Dallas.
For your reading enjoyment...



http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000281316/article/colin-kaepernickled-san-francisco-49ers-struggling-on-offense
Steve Young was on KNBR tonight with comments that validated a lot of what we have been saying in this thread. (copy from the Kaepernick thread)

To summarize: In the Indianapolis game there were multiple missed reads by both receivers and Kaepernick, missed checkdowns, routes not run correctly, etc. Harbaugh recognized that the team had to get back to winning and do it right away. Hence he contracted (Young's word) the offense down to rely on strong defense, power running and very basic pass pattern with very simple reads. In short, Young said Harbaugh turned Kaepernick into a game manager as opposed to the dynamic force he was in games last season when the read option was new and no one knew how to defend it.

Now after 5 games of further contraction, the passing game is very basic. Very seldom is there more than one read to one primary receiver. Kaepernick realizes the offense is very simple and that plus the fact he is under pressure a lot and struggling to get the ball to a receiver has hurt his confidence to the point he is now playing scared and very tentative.

What Young said Harbaugh needs to do is to "expand" the offense, not "contract" it. Give Kaepernick multiple targets and let him learn how to go through progressions. If Harbaugh wants him to learn to read coverages and adjust routes and reads, he has to allow him to do it in games. He can't keep the training wheels on…or words to that effect.

Young also put a limit on how much blame can be put on the lack of receivers. He recognizes that losing Crabtree and Manningham hurt but does not accept that other receivers like Williams and Baldwin could not be used to at least give CK multiple reads. Other teams have injuries as well and backups step up and play. In the 49ers case, the contracted offense has become so totally dependent on Vernon Davis and Boldin that it is easy for teams to take them out of the game and then it is ALL up to the defense and power running. That approach will win a few more games this season but will not go far in the playoffs.

If the 49ers are to have a chance in the playoffs, Harbaugh must expand the offense. Put more dynamic, open plays and sequences into the offense. CK will never have the explosive impact on the offense he had last season with the read option (teams have learned to defend it) but he must be allowed to have other passing options besides Bolding and learn to go through the progressions quickly to get the ball to them.

That is the gist of Young's comments as closely as I can recall them. If others heard him feel free to jump in with your recollection. It was pretty clear Young without directly saying so, feels Harbaugh is restricting Kaepernick's development by the style of offense he has been running since Indy. While that worked for some of the weaker teams, it didn't work against Carolina and will not work in the playoffs. Harbaugh needs to open it up and let CK and the rest of the offense become more dynamic rather than just power running with a game manager QB that ultimately relies on a mean ugly defense to win.

He also predicted that the 49ers, given the current offense, will have to hold NO under 21 if they are to win. He does not feel Harbaugh and Kaepernick can turn this offense around in just one week but they must get started now.
  • thl408
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 4,278
Here's an old, but good article about what a dynamic passing attack needs. This is as advanced as an NFL passing attack gets, but nothing can stop it except high QB pressure. No way Kap can handle this yet, it would be the final stage in his development.

Option Routes

"Accuracy is all about technique and decisiveness," says Brady, who this year leads the NFL with 159 passes between 1-10 yards, according to Football Outsiders. "You have to use proper technique, and then have confidence that you and the receiver are seeing it the same way."

Option routes and 49ers
[ Edited by thl408 on Nov 14, 2013 at 12:47 AM ]
Maybe the Eric Mangini needs to end, and who the hell is John Morton, and what are his qualifications!
Wide receivers/tight ends: The most overrated storyline in the woes of the passing game is the perceived inability of the pass targets to get open. In watching the all-22 game video, this does not seem like much of a problem at all. The receivers are getting open – but that, obviously, has not translated into much production.

http://www.csnbayarea.com/49ers/whos-blame-breakdowns-49ers-passing-game
Originally posted by valrod33:
Wide receivers/tight ends: The most overrated storyline in the woes of the passing game is the perceived inability of the pass targets to get open. In watching the all-22 game video, this does not seem like much of a problem at all. The receivers are getting open – but that, obviously, has not translated into much production.

http://www.csnbayarea.com/49ers/whos-blame-breakdowns-49ers-passing-game

Some already knew this. Most are in denial. Every QB has WR's that are open. It depends on the situation of whether or not they throw it to them: don't see them, angle of the pass rush, incorrect presnap read, or just flustered.
[ Edited by Joecool on Nov 14, 2013 at 9:44 AM ]
http://www.ninersnation.com/2013/11/13/5099328/49ers-panthers-all-22-images-offense-kaepernick
So then.

Trent Dilfer was right. And Young agrees with him entirely.

That argument is hereby over.

And it is clear what needs to be done.
So now that we have the input of STEVE YOUNG:

Bottom line ..... Kaepernick is NOT THE PROBLEM.
Bottom line ..... Receivers are not the problem.
Bottom line ..... O line is not the problem.

Every one of you in here groaning and fighting to the death with your anger and great wisdom thinking any of those were.....

Were DEAD WRONG.

What needs to happen is now clear.
  • thl408
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 4,278
Originally posted by Joecool:
http://www.ninersnation.com/2013/11/13/5099328/49ers-panthers-all-22-images-offense-kaepernick

Notice all the zone coverage being played by CAR in those All-22 stills (except for in the red zone). All the CBs are looking at Kap, some have their hips turned ready to run downfield. The CBs were always preventing the deep pass, never in a trail position, and always playing over the top of the WRs. Comeback patterns were available. It seems CAR was forcing Kap to dink and dunk, something he has not shown the willingness to do.
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by Joecool:
http://www.ninersnation.com/2013/11/13/5099328/49ers-panthers-all-22-images-offense-kaepernick

Notice all the zone coverage being played by CAR in those All-22 stills (except for in the red zone). All the CBs are looking at Kap, some have their hips turned ready to run downfield. The CBs were always preventing the deep pass, never in a trail position, and always playing over the top of the WRs. Comeback patterns were available. It seems CAR was forcing Kap to dink and dunk, something he has not shown the willingness to do.

This is the biggest issue of our offense, IMO: it's Kap. But that was expected, right?
It isn't that Kaep isn't willing or good at the short touch pass at all.

Listen to Steve Young.

Its the game planning and coordination of all the pieces.
play calling , we depnd on either VD , Boldin , Gore or Mannigham . anyone else gets the ball mybe fullback somtimes . If we change and play screens and get other players involved .