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What is the real problem with this offensive offense?

What is the real problem with this offensive offense?

Originally posted by sacninesixteen:
Originally posted by hondakillerzx:
Originally posted by sacninesixteen:
Was Kaep the 6th QB taken in the draft for a reason? Sure the hell is looking like it. I know our receivers aren't great but we have had a MUCH MUCH WORSE group of receivers on this team in years past with worse quarterbacks who were still able to put up 200 yards passing a game consistently. Trading Alex and keeping Krappernick has turned out to be a sh*t decision.

we also didnt have greg roman calling plays...

That's right we had Jimmy Raye and Jim Hostler. Those guys were just as bad if not worse. Roman's offense is offensive I admit that. But Kaep ultimately is the one missing receivers by either throwing inaccurate passes, poor reads, or just not pulling the trigger at the right time, and making poor choices. Not all Kaep's fault, but he deserves a huge chunk of the blame. That's what happens when you're the QB.

they may have been bad but they were actually passing game/offensive coordinators not run game professionals like roman. i dont hate roman that much but i do think hes a huge reason our passing game sucks, its just not his thing. kap misses some stuff but our oline and receivers arent really helping either
Originally posted by hondakillerzx:
Originally posted by sacninesixteen:
Originally posted by hondakillerzx:
Originally posted by sacninesixteen:
Was Kaep the 6th QB taken in the draft for a reason? Sure the hell is looking like it. I know our receivers aren't great but we have had a MUCH MUCH WORSE group of receivers on this team in years past with worse quarterbacks who were still able to put up 200 yards passing a game consistently. Trading Alex and keeping Krappernick has turned out to be a sh*t decision.

we also didnt have greg roman calling plays...

That's right we had Jimmy Raye and Jim Hostler. Those guys were just as bad if not worse. Roman's offense is offensive I admit that. But Kaep ultimately is the one missing receivers by either throwing inaccurate passes, poor reads, or just not pulling the trigger at the right time, and making poor choices. Not all Kaep's fault, but he deserves a huge chunk of the blame. That's what happens when you're the QB.

they may have been bad but they were actually passing game/offensive coordinators not run game professionals like roman. i dont hate roman that much but i do think hes a huge reason our passing game sucks, its just not his thing. kap misses some stuff but our oline and receivers arent really helping either

Agreed. We're all watching the same games. I think we can all also agree that there is a legitimate concern for offense and that the current play will cause us to either miss the postseason or get rolled in the wildcard. It's a shame that our team with arguably one of the deepest rosters in football can't compete with good teams because of our offense and the defense has to suffer because of it.
Originally posted by hondakillerzx:
they may have been bad but they were actually passing game/offensive coordinators not run game professionals like roman. i dont hate roman that much but i do think hes a huge reason our passing game sucks, its just not his thing. kap misses some stuff but our oline and receivers arent really helping either


I guess that one's on Harbaugh. He brought him in and he's sticking with him.
Originally posted by sacninesixteen:
Originally posted by hondakillerzx:
Originally posted by sacninesixteen:
Originally posted by hondakillerzx:
Originally posted by sacninesixteen:
Was Kaep the 6th QB taken in the draft for a reason? Sure the hell is looking like it. I know our receivers aren't great but we have had a MUCH MUCH WORSE group of receivers on this team in years past with worse quarterbacks who were still able to put up 200 yards passing a game consistently. Trading Alex and keeping Krappernick has turned out to be a sh*t decision.

we also didnt have greg roman calling plays...

That's right we had Jimmy Raye and Jim Hostler. Those guys were just as bad if not worse. Roman's offense is offensive I admit that. But Kaep ultimately is the one missing receivers by either throwing inaccurate passes, poor reads, or just not pulling the trigger at the right time, and making poor choices. Not all Kaep's fault, but he deserves a huge chunk of the blame. That's what happens when you're the QB.

they may have been bad but they were actually passing game/offensive coordinators not run game professionals like roman. i dont hate roman that much but i do think hes a huge reason our passing game sucks, its just not his thing. kap misses some stuff but our oline and receivers arent really helping either

Agreed. We're all watching the same games. I think we can all also agree that there is a legitimate concern for offense and that the current play will cause us to either miss the postseason or get rolled in the wildcard. It's a shame that our team with arguably one of the deepest rosters in football can't compete with good teams because of our offense and the defense has to suffer because of it.

passing game s definitely the bottleneck. they need to get more creative with the playcalling. another reason our line looked so bad against carolina was VD went out of the game. he bails them out a lot and is a great blocker. with him back we will get it done against the saints i think. our leaders need to step up and talk to the coaches about playcalling tho. they have to realize whats going on as well
Originally posted by REALISTIC:
Originally posted by hondakillerzx:
they may have been bad but they were actually passing game/offensive coordinators not run game professionals like roman. i dont hate roman that much but i do think hes a huge reason our passing game sucks, its just not his thing. kap misses some stuff but our oline and receivers arent really helping either


I guess that one's on Harbaugh. He brought him in and he's sticking with him.

He is the head coach and he's sitting back and letting it happen.
Originally posted by hondakillerzx:
Originally posted by sacninesixteen:
Originally posted by hondakillerzx:
Originally posted by sacninesixteen:
Originally posted by hondakillerzx:
Originally posted by sacninesixteen:
Was Kaep the 6th QB taken in the draft for a reason? Sure the hell is looking like it. I know our receivers aren't great but we have had a MUCH MUCH WORSE group of receivers on this team in years past with worse quarterbacks who were still able to put up 200 yards passing a game consistently. Trading Alex and keeping Krappernick has turned out to be a sh*t decision.

we also didnt have greg roman calling plays...

That's right we had Jimmy Raye and Jim Hostler. Those guys were just as bad if not worse. Roman's offense is offensive I admit that. But Kaep ultimately is the one missing receivers by either throwing inaccurate passes, poor reads, or just not pulling the trigger at the right time, and making poor choices. Not all Kaep's fault, but he deserves a huge chunk of the blame. That's what happens when you're the QB.

they may have been bad but they were actually passing game/offensive coordinators not run game professionals like roman. i dont hate roman that much but i do think hes a huge reason our passing game sucks, its just not his thing. kap misses some stuff but our oline and receivers arent really helping either

Agreed. We're all watching the same games. I think we can all also agree that there is a legitimate concern for offense and that the current play will cause us to either miss the postseason or get rolled in the wildcard. It's a shame that our team with arguably one of the deepest rosters in football can't compete with good teams because of our offense and the defense has to suffer because of it.

passing game s definitely the bottleneck. they need to get more creative with the playcalling. another reason our line looked so bad against carolina was VD went out of the game. he bails them out a lot and is a great blocker. with him back we will get it done against the saints i think. our leaders need to step up and talk to the coaches about playcalling tho. they have to realize whats going on as well

There's no way the leaders on this team haven't said anything to the coaching staff.
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
LOL....this. People are stupid if they are blaming this all on Kaepernick. That pass was absolutely perfect, he couldn't have walked down the field and handed the ball off to him any better. Is it Kaepernick's fault that Carolina was beating down the offensive line like a bunch of ugly red-headed stepchildren? He spent half the time running for his life. Seeing that Carolina was bringing the heat, was Kaepernick the one calling long-developing passes, 7 step drops instead of utilizing slants and screens to back off an aggressive defense?

I'm amazed that after watching this offense since 2011, people still can't seem the common link for all this teams struggles. The playcalling on offense is not up to par for the NFL, it might work for college football but good defenses are sniffing it out and jumping all over it. The problem is that these guys find something that works, and then they beat it to death, continuing to run it long after defenses have adapted. The constant use of the read option when it has rarely been effective this season is puzzling as hell. The lack of flow, rhyme or reason to the offensive gamecalling has been scandalous.



How many more games do people have to watch, how many more horrible performances against good defenses will it take before something clicks. You want a new QB, f**k it, get a new QB, this offense will still be s**t, 100% guaranteed as long as Roman is around.


As long as you end up with only 1 or 2 actual targets on most passing routes, this is what the offense will continue to look like against better teams, as long as the playcalling continues to be utterly predictable and the team fails to utilize all its various weapons, this is the best you can expect, solid beatdowns against lousy teams, particularly those who can't stop the run, and awful performances against good defenses.

No more needs to be said.

Gotta be dumber about football that pig dung for somebody to not recognize it.
Although maybe there is one more thing. Some of this is the offense Harbaugh was familiar with when he was qb for the colts.
Originally posted by 49erWay:
Although maybe there is one more thing. Some of this is the offense Harbaugh was familiar with when he was qb for the colts.

Definitely some Lindy Infante influence, the long dropbacks, long-developing pass plays, very Lindy like. Combine that with the offense he ran at Michigan and you see the foundation for Harbaugh's offense, it has little to do with the WCO.
[ Edited by Phoenix49ers on Nov 12, 2013 at 8:38 PM ]
INJURIES
Originally posted by sacninesixteen:
Originally posted by REALISTIC:
Originally posted by hondakillerzx:
they may have been bad but they were actually passing game/offensive coordinators not run game professionals like roman. i dont hate roman that much but i do think hes a huge reason our passing game sucks, its just not his thing. kap misses some stuff but our oline and receivers arent really helping either


I guess that one's on Harbaugh. He brought him in and he's sticking with him.

He is the head coach and he's sitting back and letting it happen.


In the end this is where the offensive failures have to lie. You can blame Roman or Kaep or anyone else for so long but if adjustments haven't been made or aren't working the Head Coach is the man to look at. It's his job to get the best personel on the field. It's his job to get the players ready. It's his job to sign off on gameplans and playcalls. He is the only one on gameday to VETO any decision made by his staff.

That said I think Jim does a great job in accepting the criticism and above all else he wants to win. If he doesn't think the guys are doing their jobs he will take steps to rectify the problem IMO. Also, he never hangs his players or staff out to dry. He accepts full responsibility for what happens on gameday.
Originally posted by AUniner:
Originally posted by sacninesixteen:
Originally posted by REALISTIC:
Originally posted by hondakillerzx:
they may have been bad but they were actually passing game/offensive coordinators not run game professionals like roman. i dont hate roman that much but i do think hes a huge reason our passing game sucks, its just not his thing. kap misses some stuff but our oline and receivers arent really helping either


I guess that one's on Harbaugh. He brought him in and he's sticking with him.

He is the head coach and he's sitting back and letting it happen.


In the end this is where the offensive failures have to lie. You can blame Roman or Kaep or anyone else for so long but if adjustments haven't been made or aren't working the Head Coach is the man to look at. It's his job to get the best personel on the field. It's his job to get the players ready. It's his job to sign off on gameplans and playcalls. He is the only one on gameday to VETO any decision made by his staff.

That said I think Jim does a great job in accepting the criticism and above all else he wants to win. If he doesn't think the guys are doing their jobs he will take steps to rectify the problem IMO. Also, he never hangs his players or staff out to dry. He accepts full responsibility for what happens on gameday.

That's fine but as HC you must also know how to fix it, and if that means changing the methodology then you change it. What we have seen from Harbaugh to this point is a strong power running attack but a college level (at best) passing attack. What we have also seen is that the better teams in the league have blunted the offense. As it stands now, this team may struggle to a 10-6, 11-5 season and a loss in the wild card game to Carolina at their place….or less.
We tried to prove we can just run the ball and don't really have to pass and have Kap game manage. I think we proved this isn't what we are.

We ran until we had to pass, then we telegraph'd by 3rd and long. Over and over.

Unleash Kap.
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by AUniner:
Originally posted by sacninesixteen:
Originally posted by REALISTIC:
Originally posted by hondakillerzx:
they may have been bad but they were actually passing game/offensive coordinators not run game professionals like roman. i dont hate roman that much but i do think hes a huge reason our passing game sucks, its just not his thing. kap misses some stuff but our oline and receivers arent really helping either


I guess that one's on Harbaugh. He brought him in and he's sticking with him.

He is the head coach and he's sitting back and letting it happen.


In the end this is where the offensive failures have to lie. You can blame Roman or Kaep or anyone else for so long but if adjustments haven't been made or aren't working the Head Coach is the man to look at. It's his job to get the best personel on the field. It's his job to get the players ready. It's his job to sign off on gameplans and playcalls. He is the only one on gameday to VETO any decision made by his staff.

That said I think Jim does a great job in accepting the criticism and above all else he wants to win. If he doesn't think the guys are doing their jobs he will take steps to rectify the problem IMO. Also, he never hangs his players or staff out to dry. He accepts full responsibility for what happens on gameday.

That's fine but as HC you must also know how to fix it, and if that means changing the methodology then you change it. What we have seen from Harbaugh to this point is a strong power running attack but a college level (at best) passing attack. What we have also seen is that the better teams in the league have blunted the offense. As it stands now, this team may struggle to a 10-6, 11-5 season and a loss in the wild card game to Carolina at their place….or less.

This is true. I mentioned that is has come to the obvioius point (yet, another struggle againts a good team) now, the patterns are very clear, and Jim needs to pull a John and bring in a real WCO OC. And it will be ugly for a while and there will be turnover in personnel b/c of it. But another poster brought up an excellent point...John is removed from any OC duties on game day so he's purely looking at results. His OC is either cutting it or he isn't. Done. Whereas Jim appears to be intimately involved, not only in the sign-off of the game plan but also the calls in-game. And like others have suggested, he himself may be fully grounded in the Bo Schembechler offensive philosophy and may seriously struggle pulling the rug out from under his own feet.

So here we are...all this wasted talent and we're here b/c of nothing more than a poor marriage to an offensive system that doesn't work in the NFL (when it matters most).
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Buchy:
Originally posted by Jakemall:
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
- the playcalling shouldn't get away from the run when it is working.. otherwise, it is fine and being scapegoated for poor player execution...

- I don't think it is at all as simple as to suggest that when Miller trots onto the field, we are showing our hand in running intent...

- RZ confidence and aggression is low, and the coaches need to go for it on 4th and goal in situations like the Carolina game...

- The weapons are fine... WRs/TEs can make up for lack of speed with sharp double moves, convincing play-action, and jump-ball situations that they are simply not getting chances to make.


- the biggest problem is that the 2012 Kaep is not showing himself. In 2012, he was having fun and relaxed. 2013 Kaep seems remarkably stressed and tense. He seems afraid to make a mistake... and his hesitations are causing him to not release the ball... not find open targets... and he is overly reliant on his athleticism to evade and escape the pocket to run. Well, defenses are being more disciplined, and those runs are not nearly as effective.

He CAN get this worked out. He HAS the ability to be a star. He just needs to relax... and better learn to trust his targets and what he sees from the D-coverage.

I believe in him... but while he is struggling through these issues, I refuse to blame everyone around him just because I am desperate to believe he is the Chosen One. And I do pray he is the Chosen One... because the only thing that would tick me off more than "my guy" being replaced by the Chosen One??? is that "my guy" was replaced by a fraud.

This.


I think you are labouring under a mis-understanding that I think Kap is an elite QB. He's not, he could be but he's not there yet. I am not an Alex hater, he had my full support while he played for us, and I have pointed out that the struggles on our offense actually are the same now as when Alex was QB. Our Oline was terrible against the blitz forcing Alex to eat a lot of sacks against the Ravens in 2011 and the Giants in 2012.

That is why I am pointing them out, because they are issues and concerns that have been seen before with a different QB and we had the same issues moving the ball. The porous O Line when pass blocking, the designated receiver - in 2011 Crabtree had 72 catches, Vernon 67 and next up was Williams with 20....

As I said in my post, trotting Miller on means it's almost always a run, but more than that because he doesn't have the pace Walker has we cannot use him with the same versatility, therefore the other team can still put 8 in the box and cover Miller if he leaks out as a check down.
They obviously are two very different QBs yet the offense still struggles. Does that suggest a coaching issue as much as a player issue?

When Smith did not "throw a receiver open" he was chastised for not throwing it away or taking a sack. Now Kaepernick is hesitant when he has a receiver open he is taking sacks and sometimes throwing it away. Same issue.

Everyone from Ray Ratto to Santa Claus (I can't think of any two more different) is blaming lack of quality receivers but Jonathan Baldwin caught 41 passes in two years in KC but can't even get on the field. He has been stuck behind Kyle Williams who is no longer on the team. If Matt Cassell can complete passes to Baldwin, what is wrong with Colin Kaepernick.

I believe a good part of the blame rests on The Great Quarterback Whisperer, Jim Harbaugh. I am no longer buying his resume. Josh Johnson was pretty good at San Diego but couldn't buy a seat on the bus in the NFL. Apparently what Harbaugh taught him had limitations. Andrew Luck was the best HS QB in the nation and he chose Stanford for academics as well as football (2 degrees IIRC). He had a great career there basically marshaling a college power running game with some nice passing. He had two years with Harbaugh and one with Dennis Shaw, during all of which he looked pretty much the same. Now he is with Indy and still doing great. I question how much of his success is credited to Harbaugh. Everyone talks about how Jim Harbaugh "saved" Alex Smith's career when all he did was recognize that Alex was the best option available, and he turned out to be a good one. However, any decent observer will record that Smith's career turned around when Mike Johnson replaced Jimmy Raye, not when Jim Harbaugh arrived. Alex was the same Alex before Harbaugh and is the same one now.

Now we come to Colin Kaepernick who is in his third year and is still having some of the same recognition problems he had in the first games we saw him play here. Yes, getting Crabtree back may help but he has had other receivers open yet failed to spot them and deliver the ball. So I am calling out Harbaugh to prove he is The Great Quarterback Whisperer. If Kaepernick was his handpicked guy (although rumor has it he would have preferred Andy Dalton) then it is time for him to make His Guy into the player we were led to believe he could be. Put a system on the field that includes multiple receivers that are in position to catch the ball, including short safety valves that take the pressure off the QB and allow him to develop.

Yes, the OL has allowed a lot of sacks but any system that spins around 5 and 7 step drops is going to put a lot of pressure in the OL. Go to quick drops with passing plays designed to beat pressure. This isn't rocket science. Just watch what Payton does in NO.

Yes, WR is a relative weakness but when Green Bay lost Finley and Cobb, Andrew Quarless and Jarrett Boykin step in and the machine rolls on. Kyle Williams may have been a false hope (although Alex Smith found him on occasion) but Baldwin shouldn't be. Time to look into the coaches lounge instead of just looking at players. We have become predictable and one-dimensional. Only one area to put that blame.

I'm starting to believe this because the evidence is starting to pile up and the results are irrefutable.