There are 109 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

What is the real problem with this offensive offense?

What is the real problem with this offensive offense?

Originally posted by jonesadrian:
he showed he trusts boldin and he trusts davis. he has shown he trusts badlwin too he does not trust williams williams started for 8 games so literally there were only 2 targets out there for him.

last game he didn't complete a lot of passes but he did complete 3 to boldin and 3 to manningham because he trusts them he trusts macdonald ive seen him on a scramble drill throw it to him when that option was available.

he just didn't trust or like kyle williams and that's who they kept trotting out there. so when numbers come out about spreading it around.
1 we don't run 3wr sets often and 2 the second wr for 8 games was kyle williams which basically means that he has 1 wr out there.

This. That was much was obvious from the get-go.
Originally posted by crabman82:
bottom line is he has to be smrater, if hes not going to throw it to whatever wr for whatever reason then he has to toss it away out of bounds and quit taking dumb sacks.

last game was the only time he was really sacked a lot all season he's been very good about not taking sacks. part of the sacks were on him. and part of it were on 7 step drops when your center is being blown up.

the coaching staff needs to be smarter. if you see on tape that a guy isn't blocking well has more drops than anyone and can't get open why does it take you 8 games to put someone else in. case in point.
williams gets a pass goes right through his hands
william gets a pass and just misses it in tight coverage

first game baldwin steps on the field kap fires a rocket to him with a db on his back, a pass he would never make to crabtree.

next game against the rams the presence of baldwin gets boldin open on the touchdown pass. both defenders followed him to the middle. they would have NEVER followed williams anywhere.

it's not rocket science.
get williams out as the #2 after game 3 he shouldn't have been starting anymore. game 3
and don't forget lmj not getting in so williams could return kicks and punts..

we will see going forward how this passing offense look with no kyle williams but like i said the numbers are dishonest. we don't spread it around because these other guys don't get used a lot. and when you run 2wr majority of the time and 1 of them is williams, you're running 1 wr set and 1 te set cause the other is blocking

that isn't going to get it done, that's easy to plan for. especially since going in you can rule out quick routes rule out screens on the outside or running back screens you can rule out any imagination in the passing game.. rule it out.

so yes on film they say he's a 1 read qb what they fail to mention is that there is only 1 option or 2 options MAX
sad
[ Edited by jonesadrian on Nov 12, 2013 at 12:30 PM ]
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
This. That was much was obvious from the get-go.

to everyone but the people paid to see these things
Here's the reality: NONE of know what Kaep can or can't read or what he sees. We do know he's gone through progressions multiple times, we do know he LIT IT UP for us last year, we do know we don't have the receiving threats we had last year. We do know that he took us to the SB last year in SPECTACULAR fashion. So until we know quit posting s**t you don't know.
[ Edited by sdaddy101269 on Nov 12, 2013 at 12:33 PM ]
Originally posted by martysofresh:
Actually a lot of the problem with the offense is that Kap has favorite recievers soo it's not really a matter of other not getting open but really a matter of Kap having predetermined targets and hitting the open man. Also I've noticed that Kap hesitates to run...ALOT. He'll run towards the line of scrimmage with the ball up lookin up field instead just tuckin the ball and running for the first down. IMO, the attribute that makes guys like Brady, Rogers, Brees, and Manning so elite is that they spread the ball around and utilize the players on the field. Play callin is 2nd. By that I mean not utilizing players. Why don't we see LMJ in slot or gettin screens? Or Hunter getting screens. It's upsetting as a fan to see that we have weapons and we don't use them. With guys like KW and MM, we should have quick screens in the offense.
Ive been thinking this same way, it looks like when Kaep goes back to pass he already has a predetermined targets before each snap and if they are covered it seems he is instructed to audible to another predetermined play instead of calling a play that adjust to the type of defense we are facing on that play.
Originally posted by SF9er05:
Originally posted by martysofresh:
Actually a lot of the problem with the offense is that Kap has favorite recievers soo it's not really a matter of other not getting open but really a matter of Kap having predetermined targets and hitting the open man. Also I've noticed that Kap hesitates to run...ALOT. He'll run towards the line of scrimmage with the ball up lookin up field instead just tuckin the ball and running for the first down. IMO, the attribute that makes guys like Brady, Rogers, Brees, and Manning so elite is that they spread the ball around and utilize the players on the field. Play callin is 2nd. By that I mean not utilizing players. Why don't we see LMJ in slot or gettin screens? Or Hunter getting screens. It's upsetting as a fan to see that we have weapons and we don't use them. With guys like KW and MM, we should have quick screens in the offense.
Ive been thinking this same way, it looks like when Kaep goes back to pass he already has a predetermined targets before each snap and if they are covered it seems he is instructed to audible to another predetermined play instead of calling a play that adjust to the type of defense we are facing on that play.

Umm the predetermined play does this.. the 2nd play is the adjustment
Originally posted by SF9er05:
Originally posted by martysofresh:
Actually a lot of the problem with the offense is that Kap has favorite recievers soo it's not really a matter of other not getting open but really a matter of Kap having predetermined targets and hitting the open man. Also I've noticed that Kap hesitates to run...ALOT. He'll run towards the line of scrimmage with the ball up lookin up field instead just tuckin the ball and running for the first down. IMO, the attribute that makes guys like Brady, Rogers, Brees, and Manning so elite is that they spread the ball around and utilize the players on the field. Play callin is 2nd. By that I mean not utilizing players. Why don't we see LMJ in slot or gettin screens? Or Hunter getting screens. It's upsetting as a fan to see that we have weapons and we don't use them. With guys like KW and MM, we should have quick screens in the offense.
Ive been thinking this same way, it looks like when Kaep goes back to pass he already has a predetermined targets before each snap and if they are covered it seems he is instructed to audible to another predetermined play instead of calling a play that adjust to the type of defense we are facing on that play.

THIS...this is why you see Gore into a defensive 10-man wall all the time.
Originally posted by jonesadrian:
but if the passing game is struggling why don't they use the best available players to help the qb out? why don't they make macdonald and davis big targets, BOTH of them. the #1 thing everyone says is the tight end is the safety net ours are used for strictly deep passes and blocking no intermediate stuff to help him if nothing else is open.

I understand your point, but this is not true. I know because I've watched the game that McDonald was used both deep and as outlet in the Car game. Kaep didn't go to McDonald on one critical play late in the game that I remember. McDonald was open as an outlet about 5 yds out. Had Kaep went to McDonald, he would be open enough to get the extra 2 for the 1st down. Kaep overthrown Boldin on that play instead. The LB was so sure that Kaep would go to the open McDonald that he haul ass to McDonald's side leaving Gore open instead. But fortunately for Carolina Kaep went neither to McDonald or Gore.
[ Edited by qnnhan7 on Nov 12, 2013 at 1:34 PM ]
Just heard Greg Cossell on KNBR......the arguement between Kaep and Wilson, Wilson is a much better pocket passer than Kaep and Wilson is playign behind an injured OL. Kaep is still learning. Also he has to learn how to throw receivers open or throw in anticipation that the receiver will be open. Right now he has no confidence (which we already know). Greg also said there is now way we win a SB without a passing game, not in today's NFL. To summarize our game against the Saints.....we're not going to win unless the offense can create explosive plays.
Originally posted by qnnhan7:
I understand your point, but this is not true. I know because I've watched the game that McDonald was used both deep and as outlet in the Car game. Kaep didn't go to McDonald on one critical play late in the game that I remember. McDonald was open as an outlet about 5 yds out. Had Kaep went to McDonald, he would be open enough to get the extra 2 for the 1st down. Kaep overthrown Boldin on that play instead.

that might very well be true. the fact you can pinpoint when it happened, because they don't happen often. that's the problem. due to the way the scheme is there is pretty much no margin for error. we can go through a game and say ok this play here. and that play there. but those options only appear in those instances and if he doesn't hit them then it costs us because we don't repeat them. that's the problem. its not too much for us to expect him to hit on these check downs and other targets however if there's only 1 opportunity per game for these types of plays.. that's unrealistic to think he will be money on every single one.

does it mean he can't do better, yes he can do WAY BETTER but he has to have these options continuous. that's my point

these things have to repeat and repeat and repeat so that we can't just go ok on this one play in this position he missed this, and then neglect that, that opportunity and play probably wasn't called again.

he has a better chance of completing these plays if he sees it 10 times where the option is there as opposed to 1 or 2 times...

like the macdonald play. it was 1 shot, 1 shot for the game essentially, no times before or after that. and if he doesn't get that 1 shot then all is lost.. .
that is not how a passing game should operate. if macdonald beat the lb once why wouldn't he be able to beat him again? why wouldn't they go back to something

that's the huge problem. you have something, he missed the opportunity like all qb's do, and then you don't go to it ever again to try and get something that was open and this time connect it.. if he misses once then that's it for the entire play type.. and that's ridiculous.

how many times have we seen teams or the elite qb's or even the ones that they say are way better than kap miss a deep pass or a play that was open
AND THEN proceed to go back to it again because it works it just wasn't executed. its as if it doesn't work the 1 time due to execution then they just cross it out...

do it again and this time HIT on the play.. give the team another shot to convert it....
Originally posted by Baldie:
Just heard Greg Cossell on KNBR......the arguement between Kaep and Wilson, Wilson is a much better pocket passer than Kaep and Wilson is playign behind an injured OL. Kaep is still learning. Also he has to learn how to throw receivers open or throw in anticipation that the receiver will be open. Right now he has no confidence (which we already know). Greg also said there is now way we win a SB without a passing game, not in today's NFL. To summarize our game against the Saints.....we're not going to win unless the offense can create explosive plays.

just off of play design alone i disagree with that.
we need to reserve who is better at what maybe until we get a coordinator who is capable of scheming for multiple people to be open on every passing play.
Originally posted by jonesadrian:
Originally posted by qnnhan7:
I understand your point, but this is not true. I know because I've watched the game that McDonald was used both deep and as outlet in the Car game. Kaep didn't go to McDonald on one critical play late in the game that I remember. McDonald was open as an outlet about 5 yds out. Had Kaep went to McDonald, he would be open enough to get the extra 2 for the 1st down. Kaep overthrown Boldin on that play instead.

that might very well be true. the fact you can pinpoint when it happened, because they don't happen often. that's the problem. due to the way the scheme is there is pretty much no margin for error. we can go through a game and say ok this play here. and that play there. but those options only appear in those instances and if he doesn't hit them then it costs us because we don't repeat them. that's the problem. its not too much for us to expect him to hit on these check downs and other targets however if there's only 1 opportunity per game for these types of plays.. that's unrealistic to think he will be money on every single one.

does it mean he can't do better, yes he can do WAY BETTER but he has to have these options continuous. that's my point

these things have to repeat and repeat and repeat so that we can't just go ok on this one play in this position he missed this, and then neglect that, that opportunity and play probably wasn't called again.

he has a better chance of completing these plays if he sees it 10 times where the option is there as opposed to 1 or 2 times...

like the macdonald play. it was 1 shot, 1 shot for the game essentially, no times before or after that. and if he doesn't get that 1 shot then all is lost.. .
that is not how a passing game should operate. if macdonald beat the lb once why wouldn't he be able to beat him again? why wouldn't they go back to something

that's the huge problem. you have something, he missed the opportunity like all qb's do, and then you don't go to it ever again to try and get something that was open and this time connect it.. if he misses once then that's it for the entire play type.. and that's ridiculous.

how many times have we seen teams or the elite qb's or even the ones that they say are way better than kap miss a deep pass or a play that was open
AND THEN proceed to go back to it again because it works it just wasn't executed. its as if it doesn't work the 1 time due to execution then they just cross it out...

do it again and this time HIT on the play.. give the team another shot to convert it....

Actually there were more check down plays that Kaep took in the first half. They weren't just few and far in between like you've indicated. This touched on something that may be true of Kaep, which is -- he's young so a bit impatient, especially late in the game needing to make something happen. He wants to make the play, instead of starting out the drive a chip at a time. String together some high percentage throws into 1st downs. Get the offense out of the deep hole backed up against their own end zone first, then go after the defense with a deep throw when you know the defense can't be aggressive like at the middle of the field.

That's what Kaep is missing right now. A bit of patience.
Originally posted by qnnhan7:
Actually there were more check down plays that Kaep took in the first half. They weren't just few and far in between like you've indicated. This touched on something that may be true of Kaep, which is -- he's young so a bit impatient, especially late in the game needing to make something happen. He wants to make the play, instead of starting out the drive a chip at a time. String together some high percentage throws into 1st downs. Get the offense out of the deep hole backed up against their own end zone first, then go after the defense with a deep throw when you know the defense can't be aggressive like at the middle of the field.

That's what Kaep is missing right now. A bit of patience.
i can agree with that.
Can someone please show me some video evidence of all these ghost-like deep passes I keep hearing about?

It is quite shocking that HaRoMan don't utilize the shorter passing plays to help dvelop a rhythm (except for that ONE Miller play) esp. against a team that is bringing heat successfully, b/c really, that is the philosophy of this offense...ground-focused game complimented by a nice, controlled, high percentage passing game that keeps the chains moving and the other team's offense on the bench (i.e. win the TOP game). It's run or intermediate pass almost 100% of the time.
Search Podcast Draft Forum Commentary News Shop Home