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What is the real problem with this offensive offense?

What is the real problem with this offensive offense?

Originally posted by PhillyNiner:
Just quoting it again so maybe people will read it rather than parroting posts that reinforce their opinions.


Cheers buddy, was 6 or 7 pages in Word when I typed it out!
  • sfout
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 6,255
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
There are few of these plays per game. It would irresponsible (and quite frankly, insulting to the QB) if these plays were the norm for our offense. In our last game, over 90% of the pass plays contained multiple receiving options. To state otherwise is just a blind attempt to conceal the QB's inabilities to make multiple reads. And yes.. we know the QB can make these reads.. but he has been greatly struggling to do so this season. The receiving options are not keeping their backs to the QB... they are running routes and turning to the QB to make themselves available as options to throw to. I am going to stop with this redundant point, but it's been tough to do so thus far, as this whole premise is false.

They are the norm of our passing game. We pass less than 25 times a game, you'll see that is what it is. On a bulk of the plays, not necessarily the vast majority but at least 8 of them you will see that he only has a single read for the entire play.

I've already said that I think Kap doesn't have the ability to properly make reads. He needs to improve and show progress but it is hard to do when our offense is predictable and our coaches send in plays that are designed to get 1 particular player open.

Prove that the premise is false, our traditional personnel group is designed to have the defense think run first and when your eligible players consist of a RB (that never is involved in the passing game), FB, a #2 blocking TE (that is an unproven rookie), #1 TE in Vernon, and Boldin. We are at most scheming to have 2 players be open at a time because Miller and Gore almost always stay in to block with Vance blocking and occasionally running routes with Vernon and Boldin typically operating in the long and short areas of the field respectively.

Even if you swap our Miller for players like Kyle Williams, Jon Baldwin, Marlone Moore, they are targeted so little that defenses barely pay attention to them. Getting Mario back may shift this a bit as he was targeted 6 times and when Crabtree returns we may finally see a dynamic 3 WR set with Vernon as the TE but don't get it twisted, we are a flawed offense right now.

You would rather blame the young QB, who is at fault, over the coaches, who are also at fault. Either way you slice it our offense is has a weakness and it is predictable and incapable of versatility, something Harbaugh places a high priority on.
[ Edited by sfout on Nov 12, 2013 at 8:52 AM ]


these guys need to shoulder most of the blame.....along with oline and kaep
The game plan sucked and usually when that happens Roman pulls out a bunch of creative plays the next and it leaves us all asking where were those plays last week.
Originally posted by sfout:
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
There are few of these plays per game. It would irresponsible (and quite frankly, insulting to the QB) if these plays were the norm for our offense. In our last game, over 90% of the pass plays contained multiple receiving options. To state otherwise is just a blind attempt to conceal the QB's inabilities to make multiple reads. And yes.. we know the QB can make these reads.. but he has been greatly struggling to do so this season. The receiving options are not keeping their backs to the QB... they are running routes and turning to the QB to make themselves available as options to throw to. I am going to stop with this redundant point, but it's been tough to do so thus far, as this whole premise is false.

They are the norm of our passing game. We pass less than 25 times a game, you'll see that is what it is. On a bulk of the plays, not necessarily the vast majority but at least 8 of them you will see that he only has a single read for the entire play.

I've already said that I think Kap doesn't have the ability to properly make reads. He needs to improve and show progress but it is hard to do when our offense is predictable and our coaches send in plays that are designed to get 1 particular player open.

Prove that the premise is false, our traditional personnel group is designed to have the defense think run first and when your eligible players consist of a RB (that never is involved in the passing game), FB, a #2 blocking TE (that is an unproven rookie), #1 TE in Vernon, and Boldin. We are at most scheming to have 2 players be open at a time because Miller and Gore almost always stay in to block with Vance blocking and occasionally running routes with Vernon and Boldin typically operating in the long and short areas of the field respectively.

Even if you swap our Miller for players like Kyle Williams, Jon Baldwin, Marlone Moore, they are targeted so little that defenses barely pay attention to them. Getting Mario back may shift this a bit as he was targeted 6 times and when Crabtree returns we may finally see a dynamic 3 WR set with Vernon as the TE but don't get it twisted, we are a flawed offense right now.

You would rather blame the young QB, who is at fault, over the coaches, who are also at fault. Either way you slice it our offense is has a weakness and it is predictable and incapable of versatility, something Harbaugh places a high priority on.


Agreed, I should say as well that I think Kap is clearly struggling, but he's actually getting harmed more by the coaching staff than helped. He can't learn to go through every read with the scheme we currently have and there are clearly trust issues with receivers who are not Boldin or Vernon. To be fair Williams dropped the 2 passes thrown his way against Jacksonville, in fact he actually fumbled one that the refs mis-called as incomplete and Kap had tackled the Jag who recovered the ball. That doesn't give you confidence in going to the guy.
Originally posted by northoakland510:
The game plan sucked and usually when that happens Roman pulls out a bunch of creative plays the next and it leaves us all asking where were those plays last week.

thats the problem...he is freaking bipolar with his play calling abilities....some games its awesome but in close games and tough situations chances are hes gonna f**k it up
Originally posted by northoakland510:
The game plan sucked and usually when that happens Roman pulls out a bunch of creative plays the next and it leaves us all asking where were those plays last week.

I honestly think Roman over thinks himself sometimes. Forget all the motion and shifting just line up and play. I mean he calls a read option run on 3rd and 1. Just get in the I formation and get that one fuuqin yard with Frank.
Originally posted by Buchy:
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Originally posted by sfout:

Those "open" receivers" are never meant to catch the ball.

There are few of these plays per game. It would irresponsible (and quite frankly, insulting to the QB) if these plays were the norm for our offense. In our last game, over 90% of the pass plays contained multiple receiving options. To state otherwise is just a blind attempt to conceal the QB's inabilities to make multiple reads. And yes.. we know the QB can make these reads.. but he has been greatly struggling to do so this season. The receiving options are not keeping their backs to the QB... they are running routes and turning to the QB to make themselves available as options to throw to. I am going to stop with this redundant point, but it's been tough to do so thus far, as this whole premise is false.

Let me ask you, if those receiving options are not keeping their backs to Kap, why are they not breaking their routes and coming back when Kap rolls out or is scrambling due to blitz pressure? That's a basic scramble drill for the WR's. Are you saying they never learned it in college or that we don't coach it?

I'd say we coach it rather poorly, as our receiving targets generally sucked for years at finding an open spot on a "broken" play.

That's really not the point here though. To answer the question directly.....

When Kaep is at that moment of decision on his back step? These targets are at the finish point to their route... and they are often open. He takes his eyes down after one read and looks for pocket escape... so then the once open targets are stuck in "WTF should I do now?" mode, as they have no idea which direction their QB will go, if anywhere.
Originally posted by 951NINER:
I honestly think Roman over thinks himself sometimes. Forget all the motion and shifting just line up and play. I mean he calls a read option run on 3rd and 1. Just get in the I formation and get that one fuuqin yard with Frank.

That play call had me almost throw my remote across the room. I can understand anyone who says Kap is struggling, but at times he seems handcuffed by these play calls. The only deep ball he threw was to Mcdonald who had the linebacker beat and dropped the ball.
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
I'd say we coach it rather poorly, as our receiving targets generally sucked for years at finding an open spot on a "broken" play.

That's really not the point here though. To answer the question directly.....

When Kaep is at that moment of decision on his back step? These targets are at the finish point to their route... and they are often open. He takes his eyes down after one read and looks for pocket escape... so then the once open targets are stuck in "WTF should I do now?" mode, as they have no idea which direction their QB will go, if anywhere.


I know we disagree on this, so I'll just say that our receivers at the moment (if they are not the designated receiver) are only looking to find a soft spot after they have run their assignment as the decoy. I think, from waching our games multiple times though I don't have access to the coaches film, that they are being instructed to run a decoy route and then try to get open a the end of the decoy in the area of the field they are supposed to be in. That is why they don't come back on a broken play, though I think we both agree our WR coaching sucks, because their assignment is not to to do so, it's to complete the decoy route to clear the field for the designated receiver and then try and get open.

In regards to the decision point, on Sunday I don't think he even got a moment of decision because the Carolina blitzers were through the O line within 2 seconds. This has been an issue with both Alex and Kap in these horror games where our offense breaks down almost completely. I think that's also why Alex got the game manager, small ball, checkdown comments etc - because in pass protection our OLine is so bad that whoever is back there does not get enough time to come back to read the decoys when their route is complete if the designated receiver is covered.
[ Edited by Buchy on Nov 12, 2013 at 9:29 AM ]
Originally posted by 951NINER:
I honestly think Roman over thinks himself sometimes. Forget all the motion and shifting just line up and play. I mean he calls a read option run on 3rd and 1. Just get in the I formation and get that one fuuqin yard with Frank.

This.
oh did i mention our receivers suck and kaeps top weapons are hurt
lol

The spin of the Zoners to put the blame on the coaching staff at misusing Kaep The guys that hand picked Kaep and moved up to drafted him are now misusing Kaep's talent. Well since Kaep isn't hitting your fantasy numbers, Roman and Harbaugh must be misusing Kaep. Holy s**t. I love the Zone
[ Edited by qnnhan7 on Nov 12, 2013 at 11:13 AM ]
Originally posted by qnnhan7:
lol

The spin of the Zoners to put the blame on the coaching staff at misusing Kaep The guys that hand picked Kaep and moved up to drafted him are now misusing Kaep's talent. Well since Kaep isn't hitting your fantasy numbers, Roman and Harbaugh must be misusing Kaep. Holy s**t. I love the Zone

you blame kaep for all of this?
kaep is not at the level yet where he makes the players around him better...he leans on crabtree boldin gore and vd to make plays. he will get there with more experience but the expectations for him are way too high because of last year. these problems start from the top and trickle down....sure hes to blame but so are many others on the team