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I knew our passing game wasn't the greatest but I didnt know we were DEAD LAST in the

Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Wu-5Rings:
Keap is not the problem... Lack of receiver help is.... Hopefully Manningham and Crabtree can help him out ASAP

Agreed, CK is not the problem. The type of passing offense we have IS. We do not have a QB-reliant offense like in NE, Denver, NO or GB where no-name WR's off the bench have become legit WR weapons in their offenses. Nobody on SF is going to ask that of CK nor is it even fundamentally built into our offense or offensive philosophy. We'll rely on the pass only if we have to but we'll never be a WCO or Spread-type offense that relies on multiple receiving threats/options, route trees, progression reads, constant pre-snaps audibles, etc. The passing game is merely here to compliment the running game and that too can be a winning formula in today's game. "Game managers" in CK (getting there), Alex, Wilson, etc. are what, 23-3 right now? What's funny about all three of these offenses is that SF, Seattle & KC are completely different from each other but as a team, employ the same winning TEAN formula: Excellent defenses, TO's, TOP, great running games, good ST and pass for around 200 a game (but efficient).

Every player has its strengths and weaknesses. I'm fine with CKs. He may not be a multi-read, zone shredding QB, but what he does bring to the field is excellent 3rd down conversion provided a the running game is sufficient. As long as he can beat a 1-1 match-up, then I'm happy.

Now I know that may be a problem against a team with great CBs (like Seattle). That's fine, you have to unleash some RB out of the backfiled type passing plays. I expect LMJ to re-emerge as Weapon X toward the end of the season and help stomp Seattle when they arrive. Many will use the Seattle template. Good luck. With addition of Manningham to Boldin, I expect options to be a bit more available.

Go Niners.
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Wu-5Rings:
Keap is not the problem... Lack of receiver help is.... Hopefully Manningham and Crabtree can help him out ASAP

Agreed, CK is not the problem. The type of passing offense we have IS. We do not have a QB-reliant offense like in NE, Denver, NO or GB where no-name WR's off the bench have become legit WR weapons in their offenses. Nobody on SF is going to ask that of CK nor is it even fundamentally built into our offense or offensive philosophy. We'll rely on the pass only if we have to but we'll never be a WCO or Spread-type offense that relies on multiple receiving threats/options, route trees, progression reads, constant pre-snaps audibles, etc. The passing game is merely here to compliment the running game and that too can be a winning formula in today's game. "Game managers" in CK (getting there), Alex, Wilson, etc. are what, 23-3 right now? What's funny about all three of these offenses is that SF, Seattle & KC are completely different from each other but as a team, employ the same winning TEAN formula: Excellent defenses, TO's, TOP, great running games, good ST and pass for around 200 a game (but efficient).

Every player has its strengths and weaknesses. I'm fine with CKs. He may not be a multi-read, zone shredding QB, but what he does bring to the field is excellent 3rd down conversion provided a the running game is sufficient. As long as he can beat a 1-1 match-up, then I'm happy.

Now I know that may be a problem against a team with great CBs (like Seattle). That's fine, you have to unleash some RB out of the backfiled type passing plays. I expect LMJ to re-emerge as Weapon X toward the end of the season and help stomp Seattle when they arrive. Many will use the Seattle template. Good luck. With addition of Manningham to Boldin, I expect options to be a bit more available.

Go Niners.

I wouldn't necessarily call Kap or Wilson a game manager. Game managers will go with the safer play or concede the play to a sack or other decision that has a very low percentage of an incompletion or turnover.

Kap's total numbers are low mostly due to attempts and how much we run the ball. However, if you look at the throws he makes, he will NOT hesitate to try and squeeze in a tight pass deep down field. He will go for the deeper route that is NFL open even if the shorter route is more open.

The title of this thread is so wrong in terms of accuracy because we are only dead last in total yards but are very competitive with passing efficiency stats and a lot of other passing stats.
5 game winning streak, # 1 rushing attack in the NFL, Crabtree and Manningham coming back, Kaep getting healthy and running again >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Our last place standing in Passing Yds per game.
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Wu-5Rings:
Keap is not the problem... Lack of receiver help is.... Hopefully Manningham and Crabtree can help him out ASAP

Agreed, CK is not the problem. The type of passing offense we have IS. We do not have a QB-reliant offense like in NE, Denver, NO or GB where no-name WR's off the bench have become legit WR weapons in their offenses. Nobody on SF is going to ask that of CK nor is it even fundamentally built into our offense or offensive philosophy. We'll rely on the pass only if we have to but we'll never be a WCO or Spread-type offense that relies on multiple receiving threats/options, route trees, progression reads, constant pre-snaps audibles, etc. The passing game is merely here to compliment the running game and that too can be a winning formula in today's game. "Game managers" in CK (getting there), Alex, Wilson, etc. are what, 23-3 right now? What's funny about all three of these offenses is that SF, Seattle & KC are completely different from each other but as a team, employ the same winning TEAN formula: Excellent defenses, TO's, TOP, great running games, good ST and pass for around 200 a game (but efficient).

Every player has its strengths and weaknesses. I'm fine with CKs. He may not be a multi-read, zone shredding QB, but what he does bring to the field is excellent 3rd down conversion provided a the running game is sufficient. I think our offense understands this and accentuates his strengths. As long as he can beat a 1-1 match-up, then I'm happy.

Now I know that may be a problem against a team with great CBs (like Seattle). That's fine, you have to unleash some RB out of the backfiled type passing plays. I expect LMJ to re-emerge as Weapon X toward the end of the season and help stomp Seattle when they arrive. Many will use the Seattle template. Good luck. With addition of Manningham to Boldin, I expect options to be a bit more available.

Go Niners.

Me too...I think CK is great for this college offense (if that one-read isn't there, take off and make something happen with your legs/arm). That said, I also think he's be great in a WCO or a Spread as well but that isn't what we run here. I think CK is doing EXACTLY what his coaches ask him to do. I'm not in the group of people who think CK only trusts VD/Boldin. I think CK would rather pass to whoever is open but goes with the play design/call.

Agreed, when we do run up against a team who can lock down that annointed target and stack the box effectively, THAT is when we need to start using middle screens with Hunter/James or flare out Gore/Hunter/James behind the DL for easy passes...throw McDonald in there as well. Some reverss, pitch-outs, quick slants, etc.

One thing we haven't seen all year (not that we needed too) was a single deep (bomb) post pattern all year long. I'm wondering why we never took advantage of CK's arm strength and stretch the field some to back those S's off and create even more room in the ground game.

Oh well, we'll see what HaRoMan have in store with a full arsenal!


PS: MB said Wright had a rehab issue and we tried to trade Baldwin as well (get rid of his contract).
As for Crabs and Mario coming back. I don't think that will increase our number of passing attempts per game as much as we think. What it will do is provide Kap with targets that are open by a larger amount due to the defense having to account for 4 threats rather than 2.

Hell, Gore and the RB's may see more carries once Kap is simply playing catch with all of our weapons and a defense is forced to move the 8th man out of the box.
Originally posted by Joecool:
The title of this thread is so wrong in terms of accuracy because we are only dead last in total yards but are very competitive with passing efficiency stats and a lot of other passing stats.

Agreed, that was debunked a while back.

We are basically, the Alex Smith offense again.

Nah, it had nothing to do with Alex...this is just the Harbaugh offense dating back to Bo Schembechler. And it's working in today's "pass happy" NFL!
Originally posted by Joecool:
As for Crabs and Mario coming back. I don't think that will increase our number of passing attempts per game as much as we think. What it will do is provide Kap with targets that are open by a larger amount due to the defense having to account for 4 threats rather than 2.

Hell, Gore and the RB's may see more carries once Kap is simply playing catch with all of our weapons and a defense is forced to move the 8th man out of the box.

100% agreed. Then everyone will say as to why Boldin/VD/Gore remain our offense, "Well, Manningham/Crabtree aren't 100% yet so..." LOL
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
The title of this thread is so wrong in terms of accuracy because we are only dead last in total yards but are very competitive with passing efficiency stats and a lot of other passing stats.

Agreed, that was debunked a while back.

We are basically, the Alex Smith offense again.

Nah, it had nothing to do with Alex...this is just the Harbaugh offense dating back to Bo Schembechler. And it's working in today's "pass happy" NFL!

Ha! Waaay better than an "Alex Smith Offense". We are actually hitting big plays and scoring points due directly to that. Kap is also throwing impressively in tight windows.

What we need to do is actually do throw some more checkdowns. Not for TOP or moving the chains, but to show defenses they MUST spread horizontally also when they play us and when they view the film.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Wu-5Rings:
Keap is not the problem... Lack of receiver help is.... Hopefully Manningham and Crabtree can help him out ASAP

Agreed, CK is not the problem. The type of passing offense we have IS. We do not have a QB-reliant offense like in NE, Denver, NO or GB where no-name WR's off the bench have become legit WR weapons in their offenses. Nobody on SF is going to ask that of CK nor is it even fundamentally built into our offense or offensive philosophy. We'll rely on the pass only if we have to but we'll never be a WCO or Spread-type offense that relies on multiple receiving threats/options, route trees, progression reads, constant pre-snaps audibles, etc. The passing game is merely here to compliment the running game and that too can be a winning formula in today's game. "Game managers" in CK (getting there), Alex, Wilson, etc. are what, 23-3 right now? What's funny about all three of these offenses is that SF, Seattle & KC are completely different from each other but as a team, employ the same winning TEAN formula: Excellent defenses, TO's, TOP, great running games, good ST and pass for around 200 a game (but efficient).

Every player has its strengths and weaknesses. I'm fine with CKs. He may not be a multi-read, zone shredding QB, but what he does bring to the field is excellent 3rd down conversion provided a the running game is sufficient. As long as he can beat a 1-1 match-up, then I'm happy.

Now I know that may be a problem against a team with great CBs (like Seattle). That's fine, you have to unleash some RB out of the backfiled type passing plays. I expect LMJ to re-emerge as Weapon X toward the end of the season and help stomp Seattle when they arrive. Many will use the Seattle template. Good luck. With addition of Manningham to Boldin, I expect options to be a bit more available.

Go Niners.

I wouldn't necessarily call Kap or Wilson a game manager. Game managers will go with the safer play or concede the play to a sack or other decision that has a very low percentage of an incompletion or turnover.

Kap's total numbers are low mostly due to attempts and how much we run the ball. However, if you look at the throws he makes, he will NOT hesitate to try and squeeze in a tight pass deep down field. He will go for the deeper route that is NFL open even if the shorter route is more open.

The title of this thread is so wrong in terms of accuracy because we are only dead last in total yards but are very competitive with passing efficiency stats and a lot of other passing stats.


Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
The title of this thread is so wrong in terms of accuracy because we are only dead last in total yards but are very competitive with passing efficiency stats and a lot of other passing stats.

Agreed, that was debunked a while back.

We are basically, the Alex Smith offense again.

Nah, it had nothing to do with Alex...this is just the Harbaugh offense dating back to Bo Schembechler. And it's working in today's "pass happy" NFL!

And it's an acknowledgement of the obvious right? Anointed receiver isn't beating his match-up well enough or the other team has schemed him out, so go with where the opposition is weakest - at the LOS against the run. Wait for the safety to cheat and throw to Davis in the seam. As JoeCool says, I don't expect passing attempts to increase as much, but opposing defenses will no longer be able to rely on defending a "Kyle Williams".
Originally posted by ruthless49er:
actually whats more worrying to me is the fact weve beaten only one team thats heading to the playoffs this year so far....

I posted this in another thread (Carolina), but I think it fits as a response here as well.

****************

Undefeated Kansas City and stats-a-palooza Denver each have only one victory over a team with a winning record, in both cases shaky 5-4 Dallas. Cincinnati has a quality win over New England, but also three losses; Chicago 2-3 against +.500 teams; Green Bay is 1-3 against other winning teams; Detroit 2-2 against other winning teams. Seattle beat the 49ers but lost to Indianapolis, making the Seahawks 1-1 in authentic games. San Francisco 1-2 against top teams. New England has just one quality victory, over New Orleans, which in turn has just one victory over a winning team. For authentic accomplishments, so far Indianapolis is tops with a 4-1 record vs +.500 record.

Originally posted by NinerGM:
And it's an acknowledgement of the obvious right? Anointed receiver isn't beating his match-up well enough or the other team has schemed him out, so go with where the opposition is weakest - at the LOS against the run. Wait for the safety to cheat and throw to Davis in the seam. As JoeCool says, I don't expect passing attempts to increase as much, but opposing defenses will no longer be able to rely on defending a "Kyle Williams".

I think this is correct. Just the mere fact that Manningham AND Crabtree are known weapons, it will be more difficult to identify who that annointed target is when you throw in Boldin, VD and Gore! You can throw Miller in here as well since he is #3. I'm very excited to see how it looks when all the chess pieces are put in place!
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
The title of this thread is so wrong in terms of accuracy because we are only dead last in total yards but are very competitive with passing efficiency stats and a lot of other passing stats.

Agreed, that was debunked a while back.

We are basically, the Alex Smith offense again.

Nah, it had nothing to do with Alex...this is just the Harbaugh offense dating back to Bo Schembechler. And it's working in today's "pass happy" NFL!

Ha! Waaay better than an "Alex Smith Offense". We are actually hitting big plays and scoring points due directly to that. Kap is also throwing impressively in tight windows.

What we need to do is actually do throw some more checkdowns. Not for TOP or moving the chains, but to show defenses they MUST spread horizontally also when they play us and when they view the film.

How about scoring ANY offensive touchdowns? The Alex Smith offense didn't score any last week against Buffalo.

Would love to see a screen game from the Niners, but that's nitpicking if they continue to score 30 + points per game.
Originally posted by m_brockalexander:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
The title of this thread is so wrong in terms of accuracy because we are only dead last in total yards but are very competitive with passing efficiency stats and a lot of other passing stats.

Agreed, that was debunked a while back.

We are basically, the Alex Smith offense again.

Nah, it had nothing to do with Alex...this is just the Harbaugh offense dating back to Bo Schembechler. And it's working in today's "pass happy" NFL!

Ha! Waaay better than an "Alex Smith Offense". We are actually hitting big plays and scoring points due directly to that. Kap is also throwing impressively in tight windows.

What we need to do is actually do throw some more checkdowns. Not for TOP or moving the chains, but to show defenses they MUST spread horizontally also when they play us and when they view the film.

How about scoring ANY offensive touchdowns? The Alex Smith offense didn't score any last week against Buffalo.

Would love to see a screen game from the Niners, but that's nitpicking if they continue to score 30 + points per game.

Yeah, KC offense and fans believe punting is good.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
The title of this thread is so wrong in terms of accuracy because we are only dead last in total yards but are very competitive with passing efficiency stats and a lot of other passing stats.

Agreed, that was debunked a while back.

We are basically, the Alex Smith offense again.

Nah, it had nothing to do with Alex...this is just the Harbaugh offense dating back to Bo Schembechler. And it's working in today's "pass happy" NFL!

Ha! Waaay better than an "Alex Smith Offense". We are actually hitting big plays and scoring points due directly to that. Kap is also throwing impressively in tight windows.

What we need to do is actually do throw some more checkdowns. Not for TOP or moving the chains, but to show defenses they MUST spread horizontally also when they play us and when they view the film.

CK certainly can bring more explosiveness to the table (and versatility). He CAN be used heavily in the 20+ yard passsing category, CAN be a weapon with his running ability, IS more willing to throw into triple coverage and IS more mobile. Ironically, all those can work against him as well which is expected of a young QB coming into his own. Alex will spread the ball around much more, is much better pre-snap, has much more experience and autonomy under Reid and will not turn the ball over. And like CK, all these attributes can work against him too (not that he CAN'T lead a spead-focused team) if playing behind.

Either way, the element of "explosiveness" does not diminish in my mind, the fact that both QB are what the pundits are calling "game managers" right now b/c they aren't Coach-like QB's where the offenses (esp. the passing game) are centered around them.

In our offense, CK's passing game (pre-determined, one-read college passing attack) is nothing more than an extension of the run game and the plays Roman dials up. And there is nothing wrong with that...right now.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Yeah, KC offense and fans believe punting is good.

They do now...last year, those punts were TO's and the main reason they only won 2 games.
[ Edited by NCommand on Nov 5, 2013 at 1:40 PM ]
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