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2013 - Week 7: Thoughts after rewatching the game.

I think there is a perception when fans ask about LMJ for someone to pick that apart and think it means they want him to start .. thats not true .. fans know the kid has speed, elusiveness and talent and are perplexed at why he's being unused AT ALL.. I have not seen anything from him to warrant being deactivated . thats just silly IMO .. the offense greatly lacks speed or a big play threat outside of Vernon and we have someone with those traits rotting away.. I see no reason that LMJ shouldnt be used in some capacity on game days. The disparity in catches with Boldin compared to the other receivers is the same disparity between Frank and the other backs .. These kids have talent thats not being utilized. 4 or 5 touches per game for Hunter and LMJ would serve this team well and preserve Frank.
Saw Staley limping around a little bit. I'm sure him and Iupati will look forward to the bye
We still need to play quite a bit better if we want #6 this year. Run Defense isn't all that great this year and is a concern for me. Pass Rush should improve a lot when Aldon comes back and Tank is added for depth. Kap is starting to play better, but there is still a heck of a lot of room for improvement.

I'm also concerned about not having a receiver that can stretch defenses. All our guys are possession receivers. Need a fast and quick guy to s**t on Seattles defensive backs.
  • AZ9er
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 6,483
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by AZ9er:
Originally posted by LoneWolf:
Originally posted by AZ9er:
When and what do you expect the NFL punishment to be? Based on the Alcohol and the guns?

It will all depend on what the courts say and what charges are upheld.

I also just saw Marvin's take on this on the previous page.

Marvin, great post as usual. It is the first thing I look for Monday morning.

Can you expand on this Baalke comment you posted here. Are you saying Baalke should not have drafted LMJ and is a poor judge of talent?

Agreed. In my view many fans tend to over-value bench players (or those not in the line-up). Where is LMJ going to play? I believe Gore is the starter and Dixon is the situational goal line guy, so really LMJ has to beat out Hunter to crack the lineup and - in my view - he's not as good as Kendall. It says more about Baalke than it does LMJ.


That quote actually wasn't me.

oops my bad. But let me re-ask the question and this is to anyone interested.

What is your take on the job Baalke has done drafting skill position players, especially WRs?
Originally posted by hubbyt:
I think there is a perception when fans ask about LMJ for someone to pick that apart and think it means they want him to start .. thats not true .. fans know the kid has speed, elusiveness and talent and are perplexed at why he's being unused AT ALL.. I have not seen anything from him to warrant being deactivated . thats just silly IMO .. the offense greatly lacks speed or a big play threat outside of Vernon and we have someone with those traits rotting away.. I see no reason that LMJ shouldnt be used in some capacity on game days. The disparity in catches with Boldin compared to the other receivers is the same disparity between Frank and the other backs .. These kids have talent thats not being utilized. 4 or 5 touches per game for Hunter and LMJ would serve this team well and preserve Frank.

He doesnt need to start or play ahead of Hunter but I do think he needs to play ahead of Dixon and be sprinkled in the game at different times. As much as this team runs the ball there is enough to go around but the main area that fans wonder if LMJ can help is returns and as a receiving weapon out of the backfield. I guess we'll just have to keep wondering. lol
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by SaksV:
The Niners literally have only ONE WR that can separate from coverage and that's Boldin. VD gets his touches by moving him all over the formation, plus he's a mismatch nightmare. Kyle Williams sucks, Jon Baldwin has done jack all, Osgood is a special teamer, Marlon Moore isn't even good enough to be activated on gameday.... Seriously, if you were Greg Roman and were faced with a passing situation, what would you do? Flood the formation with a 4 WR look consisting of ONE guy that will get open? OR give your QB a few more options by releasing the fullback and runningbacks out to catch due to the fact they don't need to beat the press (which is the number 1 problem for our WR corps)? When we get guys that can actually play some goddamn Wide Receiver (Rio and Crab), you'll see us spread it out a bit more like we did vs. Chicago last year, like we did vs. the Bills last year, like we did vs. the Saints last year......

I strongly disagree.

The problem is; Harbaugh/Roman's SCHEME does not ATTEMPT to get more than one WR free at a time. In fact, much of the time, Boldin is the only WR on the field. When there is another WR, or two, their JOB is to just draw cover so Boldin can get open, or be in position to block for him, or Davis, when they catch the ball.

Kyle Williams had no problem getting open for the "noodle-arm game manager" last season. While playing BEHIND Crabtree, Manningham and Moss, he caught 14 passes for an average of 15.2 yds/catch. A receiver that averages over 15 yards/catch obviously can get open fairly well.

Last season, Jon Baldwin playing in KC with some of the worst quarterbacking in recent NFL history, caught 20 passes for over 16 yds/catch. Again, Baldwin was even better with worse QB play than Williams.

So here we have a team with supposedly excellent QB play and a coaching staff that is reputed (by some) to be offensive geniuses, yet claim to be hard up for quality receivers, have two guys on the team that performed much better LAST SEASON with lesser quality QB play.

Don't take it personally but I don't see how anyone can honestly claim the 49ers do not have adequate WRs on the team. Most writers don't watch anything other than the ball most of the time so they have no idea how poorly Williams and Baldwin have been utilized. Hence this myth that because Crabtree and Manningham are injured, we have NO WRs of any value.

Once again, we see how Harbaugh's PREFERENCE for a power running game and a VERY limited passing game results in a misperception of the quality of receivers on the team. Williams and Baldwin COULD contribute but they are deliberately not being planned into the scheme.


I think you are greatly overstating.

I understand what you are saying about the roles of the WRs when they are out there...but there is a REASON they are being schemed they way they are. Baldwin had 20 receptions...but they were so impressed by him that they traded him for AJ Jenkins.

This is a power running team. It has been since Harbaugh took over. It wanted to be one before that...nevermind...I'm not going to get into before Harbaugh.

Unbalanced lines, extra O-Linemen, 2 or 3 TEs, very few WRs.

It has ALWAYS been this way. Thats the way they ran it at Stanford. It works. All of those formations create one on one situations in the secondary and you need guys who can take advantage of those situations. Boldin can be that guy sometimes. Vernon can be that guy. Crabtree can be that guy.

If you can man up Boldin tho and take him out of the game with one guy, SOMEBODY else needs to be capable of beating coverage. THAT isn't happening. Moreover, all offseason it has been drilled into Kaps head that Boldin isn't a separation receiver so you throw to him even when he isn't open. Mission accomplished. He's been doing that. If Boldin is the #1 receiver and he's been told to throw to him even if he's covered...how often are you actually going to get to a second read?

This is why I think Crab is important. It will be clearer if he is or is not open. Its an easier read and will allow Kap to move to a second option.

Yes, there are going to be ALOT of plays where there are only 1 or 2 viable passing options. Thats the nature of the offense. That isn't a mystery when you run jumbo sets as much as the 49ers do.
[ Edited by Marvin49 on Oct 21, 2013 at 2:05 PM ]
Originally posted by hubbyt:
Originally posted by hubbyt:
I think there is a perception when fans ask about LMJ for someone to pick that apart and think it means they want him to start .. thats not true .. fans know the kid has speed, elusiveness and talent and are perplexed at why he's being unused AT ALL.. I have not seen anything from him to warrant being deactivated . thats just silly IMO .. the offense greatly lacks speed or a big play threat outside of Vernon and we have someone with those traits rotting away.. I see no reason that LMJ shouldnt be used in some capacity on game days. The disparity in catches with Boldin compared to the other receivers is the same disparity between Frank and the other backs .. These kids have talent thats not being utilized. 4 or 5 touches per game for Hunter and LMJ would serve this team well and preserve Frank.

He doesnt need to start or play ahead of Hunter but I do think he needs to play ahead of Dixon and be sprinkled in the game at different times. As much as this team runs the ball there is enough to go around but the main area that fans wonder if LMJ can help is returns and as a receiving weapon out of the backfield. I guess we'll just have to keep wondering. lol


The only reason Dixon is active and he isn't is that Dixon is a core special teamer and backup FB. IE, he wears more hats. In terms of the RB depth, he's ahead of Dixon.
  • dj43
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Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by SaksV:
The Niners literally have only ONE WR that can separate from coverage and that's Boldin. VD gets his touches by moving him all over the formation, plus he's a mismatch nightmare. Kyle Williams sucks, Jon Baldwin has done jack all, Osgood is a special teamer, Marlon Moore isn't even good enough to be activated on gameday.... Seriously, if you were Greg Roman and were faced with a passing situation, what would you do? Flood the formation with a 4 WR look consisting of ONE guy that will get open? OR give your QB a few more options by releasing the fullback and runningbacks out to catch due to the fact they don't need to beat the press (which is the number 1 problem for our WR corps)? When we get guys that can actually play some goddamn Wide Receiver (Rio and Crab), you'll see us spread it out a bit more like we did vs. Chicago last year, like we did vs. the Bills last year, like we did vs. the Saints last year......

I strongly disagree.

The problem is; Harbaugh/Roman's SCHEME does not ATTEMPT to get more than one WR free at a time. In fact, much of the time, Boldin is the only WR on the field. When there is another WR, or two, their JOB is to just draw cover so Boldin can get open, or be in position to block for him, or Davis, when they catch the ball.

Kyle Williams had no problem getting open for the "noodle-arm game manager" last season. While playing BEHIND Crabtree, Manningham and Moss, he caught 14 passes for an average of 15.2 yds/catch. A receiver that averages over 15 yards/catch obviously can get open fairly well.

Last season, Jon Baldwin playing in KC with some of the worst quarterbacking in recent NFL history, caught 20 passes for over 16 yds/catch. Again, Baldwin was even better with worse QB play than Williams.

So here we have a team with supposedly excellent QB play and a coaching staff that is reputed (by some) to be offensive geniuses, yet claim to be hard up for quality receivers, have two guys on the team that performed much better LAST SEASON with lesser quality QB play.

Don't take it personally but I don't see how anyone can honestly claim the 49ers do not have adequate WRs on the team. Most writers don't watch anything other than the ball most of the time so they have no idea how poorly Williams and Baldwin have been utilized. Hence this myth that because Crabtree and Manningham are injured, we have NO WRs of any value.

Once again, we see how Harbaugh's PREFERENCE for a power running game and a VERY limited passing game results in a misperception of the quality of receivers on the team. Williams and Baldwin COULD contribute but they are deliberately not being planned into the scheme.


I think you are greatly overstating.

I understand what you are saying about the roles of the WRs when they are out there...but there is a REASON they are boing schemed they way they are. Baldwon had 20 receptions...but they were so impressed by him that they traded him for AJ Jenkins.

This is a power running team. It has been since Harbaugh took over. It wanted to be one before that...nevermind...I'm not going to get into before Harbaugh.

Unbalnced lines, extra O-Linemen, 2 or 3 TEs, very few WRs.

It has ALWAYS been this way. Thats the way they ran it at Stanford. It works. All of those lines create on on one situations in the secondary and you need guys who can take advantage of those situations. Boldin can be that guy sometimes. Vernon can be that guy. Crabtree can be that guy.

If you can man up Boldin tho and take him out of the game with one guy, SOMEBODY else needs to be capable of beating coverage. THAT isn't happeneing. Moreover, all offseason it has been drilled into Kaps head that Boldin isn't a separation receiver so you throw to him even when he isn't open. Mission accomplished. He's been doing that. If Boldin is the #1 receiver and he's been told to throw to him even if he's covered...how often are you actually going to get to a second read?

This is why I think Crab is important. It will be clearer if he is or is not open. Its an easier read and will allow Kap to move to a second option.

Yes, there are going to be ALOT of plays where there are only 1 or 2 viable passing options. Thats the nature of the offense. That isn't a mystery when you run jumbo sets as much as the 49ers do.

Well, we saw how well that power running/limited receiver deal worked against the Seahawks.

A good bit of the conversation around here has been about lack of receivers that can get separation. I believe THAT is the part that is greatly over-stated. As I showed, we have some receivers who have PROVEN they can get separation in the past but Harbaugh refuses to use them. There is no other reason.

As to Baldwin; Baalke saw a chance to get a blocker with some receiving skills in exchange for a speed guy who couldn't block. Baldwin is much more than that but will not prove that here. I expect him to leave at the first offer when this season ends. He COULD be a good pass catcher but will not have the chance here.

As to the future of a team that is 90% power running; how many teams have made it to the Super Bowl in the past 8 years as a power running based team?

This is a passing league. That is what the league powers want it to be, and that is what it is. You might get by with a power running game against weaker teams but it is just too limited if you fall behind against a good team.

The 49ers have the potential to be both but that will not happen under Harbaugh. He is Bo Schembechler reincarnated.
[ Edited by dj43 on Oct 21, 2013 at 2:08 PM ]
  • SaksV
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Originally posted by Big_Daddy:
Saw Staley limping around a little bit. I'm sure him and Iupati will look forward to the bye

Yeah I thought he was gonna collapse at one point during the goalline drive Gore scored his 2nd TD on... I think his ankle from the Rams game might still be sore and he aggravated it on the play.
  • SaksV
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Originally posted by Marvin49:
I just think they were looking for a stable of RBs to eventually fill Franks role. I think they continued doing that THIS year with Lattimore.

That's most likely the case. I was simply highlighting what the plan COULD be in case Frank was to go down or Kendall couldn't return at full strength as quick as he did.
Originally posted by AZ9er:
oops my bad. But let me re-ask the question and this is to anyone interested.

What is your take on the job Baalke has done drafting skill position players, especially WRs?

WR's not so good but you just keep drafting them until you find the one. Look at the Loins how many years in a row did they draft one in the first until they found the one.
  • SaksV
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Originally posted by dj43:
I strongly disagree.

The problem is; Harbaugh/Roman's SCHEME does not ATTEMPT to get more than one WR free at a time. In fact, much of the time, Boldin is the only WR on the field. When there is another WR, or two, their JOB is to just draw cover so Boldin can get open, or be in position to block for him, or Davis, when they catch the ball.

Kyle Williams had no problem getting open for the "noodle-arm game manager" last season. While playing BEHIND Crabtree, Manningham and Moss, he caught 14 passes for an average of 15.2 yds/catch. A receiver that averages over 15 yards/catch obviously can get open fairly well.

Last season, Jon Baldwin playing in KC with some of the worst quarterbacking in recent NFL history, caught 20 passes for over 16 yds/catch. Again, Baldwin was even better with worse QB play than Williams.

So here we have a team with supposedly excellent QB play and a coaching staff that is reputed (by some) to be offensive geniuses, yet claim to be hard up for quality receivers, have two guys on the team that performed much better LAST SEASON with lesser quality QB play.

Don't take it personally but I don't see how anyone can honestly claim the 49ers do not have adequate WRs on the team. Most writers don't watch anything other than the ball most of the time so they have no idea how poorly Williams and Baldwin have been utilized. Hence this myth that because Crabtree and Manningham are injured, we have NO WRs of any value.

Once again, we see how Harbaugh's PREFERENCE for a power running game and a VERY limited passing game results in a misperception of the quality of receivers on the team. Williams and Baldwin COULD contribute but they are deliberately not being planned into the scheme.
I agree with your statement but it doesn't apply here because I am not a writer.....neither are any of the posters on this forum. Like most of the posters in the 'Zone, I've played the game before (Wide Receiver at Bowling Green University 1999-2003) and also re-watch every game we play (just like the title of this thread says).

NFL teams would NOT purposely reduce the amount of eligible receivers on a pass play unless:
A) The QB struggles to go through his progressions at an adequate pace
B) The D-Line is totally overwhelming the offensive line and not giving the QB a chance to go through his reads
C) The 2nd and/or 3rd/4th receivers are not doing a good job getting open
D) The team has a very good corps of receivers that always get open. In this case, you dial up a play that only really has 1 read because it's a slam dunk everytime you call it. See 2012: Michael Crabtree had this one play designed for him that ALWAYS would work for a 9-12 yard completion. It was a drag route, usually coming from left-to-right...Even though we had Vernon Davis on the field and Randy Moss out wide (and even at times Mario Manningham in the other slot), running streaks, Crabs would be the single target on the play. I kid you not, if you go back and watch the games last year, Crabtree caught nearly 80% of his 3rd down conversions using that particular passing concept.


I'm not disagreeing with the fact that it's POSSIBLE the coaches are purposely reducing reads, I'm just saying of the points mentioned above which one do you think occurs more often or is likely to be the case in regards to our team?
[ Edited by SaksV on Oct 21, 2013 at 2:37 PM ]
  • AZ9er
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Originally posted by saj4423:
WR's not so good but you just keep drafting them until you find the one. Look at the Loins how many years in a row did they draft one in the first until they found the one.

The old Matt Millen philosophy.
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by SaksV:
The Niners literally have only ONE WR that can separate from coverage and that's Boldin. VD gets his touches by moving him all over the formation, plus he's a mismatch nightmare. Kyle Williams sucks, Jon Baldwin has done jack all, Osgood is a special teamer, Marlon Moore isn't even good enough to be activated on gameday.... Seriously, if you were Greg Roman and were faced with a passing situation, what would you do? Flood the formation with a 4 WR look consisting of ONE guy that will get open? OR give your QB a few more options by releasing the fullback and runningbacks out to catch due to the fact they don't need to beat the press (which is the number 1 problem for our WR corps)? When we get guys that can actually play some goddamn Wide Receiver (Rio and Crab), you'll see us spread it out a bit more like we did vs. Chicago last year, like we did vs. the Bills last year, like we did vs. the Saints last year......

I strongly disagree.

The problem is; Harbaugh/Roman's SCHEME does not ATTEMPT to get more than one WR free at a time. In fact, much of the time, Boldin is the only WR on the field. When there is another WR, or two, their JOB is to just draw cover so Boldin can get open, or be in position to block for him, or Davis, when they catch the ball.

Kyle Williams had no problem getting open for the "noodle-arm game manager" last season. While playing BEHIND Crabtree, Manningham and Moss, he caught 14 passes for an average of 15.2 yds/catch. A receiver that averages over 15 yards/catch obviously can get open fairly well.

Last season, Jon Baldwin playing in KC with some of the worst quarterbacking in recent NFL history, caught 20 passes for over 16 yds/catch. Again, Baldwin was even better with worse QB play than Williams.

So here we have a team with supposedly excellent QB play and a coaching staff that is reputed (by some) to be offensive geniuses, yet claim to be hard up for quality receivers, have two guys on the team that performed much better LAST SEASON with lesser quality QB play.

Don't take it personally but I don't see how anyone can honestly claim the 49ers do not have adequate WRs on the team. Most writers don't watch anything other than the ball most of the time so they have no idea how poorly Williams and Baldwin have been utilized. Hence this myth that because Crabtree and Manningham are injured, we have NO WRs of any value.

Once again, we see how Harbaugh's PREFERENCE for a power running game and a VERY limited passing game results in a misperception of the quality of receivers on the team. Williams and Baldwin COULD contribute but they are deliberately not being planned into the scheme.


I think you are greatly overstating.

I understand what you are saying about the roles of the WRs when they are out there...but there is a REASON they are boing schemed they way they are. Baldwon had 20 receptions...but they were so impressed by him that they traded him for AJ Jenkins.

This is a power running team. It has been since Harbaugh took over. It wanted to be one before that...nevermind...I'm not going to get into before Harbaugh.

Unbalnced lines, extra O-Linemen, 2 or 3 TEs, very few WRs.

It has ALWAYS been this way. Thats the way they ran it at Stanford. It works. All of those lines create on on one situations in the secondary and you need guys who can take advantage of those situations. Boldin can be that guy sometimes. Vernon can be that guy. Crabtree can be that guy.

If you can man up Boldin tho and take him out of the game with one guy, SOMEBODY else needs to be capable of beating coverage. THAT isn't happeneing. Moreover, all offseason it has been drilled into Kaps head that Boldin isn't a separation receiver so you throw to him even when he isn't open. Mission accomplished. He's been doing that. If Boldin is the #1 receiver and he's been told to throw to him even if he's covered...how often are you actually going to get to a second read?

This is why I think Crab is important. It will be clearer if he is or is not open. Its an easier read and will allow Kap to move to a second option.

Yes, there are going to be ALOT of plays where there are only 1 or 2 viable passing options. Thats the nature of the offense. That isn't a mystery when you run jumbo sets as much as the 49ers do.

Well, we saw how well that power running/limited receiver deal worked against the Seahawks.

A good bit of the conversation around here has been about lack of receivers that can get separation. I believe THAT is the part that is greatly over-stated. As I showed, we have some receivers who have PROVEN they can get separation in the past but Harbaugh refuses to use them. There is no other reason.

As to Baldwin; Baalke saw a chance to get a blocker with some receiving skills in exchange for a speed guy who couldn't block. Baldwin is much more than that but will not prove that here. I expect him to leave at the first offer when this season ends. He COULD be a good pass catcher but will not have the chance here.

As to the future of a team that is 90% power running; how many teams have made it to the Super Bowl in the past 8 years as a power running based team?

This is a passing league. That is what the league powers want it to be, and that is what it is. You might get by with a power running game against weaker teams but it is just too limited if you fall behind against a good team.

The 49ers have the potential to be both but that will not happen under Harbaugh. He is Bo Schembechler reincarnated.


ok...several problems here for me....

1) Yes...they had/have issues with Seattle. Thats gonna be true no matter what the scheme is. This just in, Seattle is good. :) Harbaugh was brought here with the idea of bringing his Stanford offense to the NFL. He's done that. He's 29-9-1. The Colts have beaten the Seahawks, the Niners, and now the Broncos with Pep Hamilton as their OC. Guess whos staff Pep worked on. They are using a very similar offense...they don't have the RBs we do (and that's what the Richardson trade was about) and have a QB whos been running that offense since college. They also have WRs who can get open (or at least they did before last night) in TY Hilton and Reggie Wayne.

2) Separation is NOT overstated. Too often people simply look at the game and see a guy running open and think "SEE, SEE!!! They ARE getting OPEN!!!". What they miss is that they have no idea how far through the play progression that player might be. Kap can't look at all points of the field at the same time. When I'm talking about separation BTW, I'm not talking about a guy running 4.3. I'm talking about a guy who can consistantly get open and warrant being a top read on any given play. If he can't beat man coverage more than 30% of the time, they probably aren't going to scheme a way to get that guy the ball.

3) Baldwin was a chance to get SOMETHING productive for a player they had realized was never going to pan out. He was also an opportunity to get a big red-zone target they had been looking for.

4) How many teams were power run based? I really hate this argument. Don't take this personally because this isn't targetted at you specifically, but the number one most annoying argument I read is that "This is a passing league" and that power run teams can't win. That is such BS. Cowboys of the 90s were a power run team. The Steelers more recently were a power run team. The Ravens were a power run team. The Seahawks right now are a power run team. The Niners BEAT Pass first teams like the Packers (three times), The Saints (Twice), The Pats, and the Falcons in the last three years. The team that stands in the 49ers way right now? A RUN FIRST POWER TEAM BUILT JUST LIKE THEMSELVES. Outside of Seattle and a Colts game that is looking less and less like a fluke every week (tho the 49ers were within a score in the 4th quarter of both games), the 49ers have put up over 30 points in EVERY GAME THIS YEAR. The Power Run game is alive and well thank you and I'd take it any day of the week and twice on sunday. When the entire league is becoming a Passing League, what do you do? Do you try to out pass the Jones' or do you take advantage of the defenders teams are trying to get to stop the pass by OVERPOWERING THEM. I think the answer is obvious.

5) The Harbaugh jab at the end is comical to me. They've now been to the NFC Championship twice in his first 2 years and were 5 yards from winning the Super Bowl. I could understand these comments if they werent' winning, but what "good teams" can they not beat? Seattle...another power run team? The Ravens...yet another running team? This comment makes no sense.
[ Edited by Marvin49 on Oct 21, 2013 at 2:42 PM ]
I think it was mentioned in the game the impact losing Crabtree has had on the 49ers. They were saying defenses are changing there coverage schemes now the Crabtree is out, and the result is (what seems like) smaller windows for Kaepernick to throw to.