There are 67 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

The next 49er to get a big $$ deal (other than Kap)

Originally posted by BrianGO:
It's the "franchise" quarterback thing though, which is different. So its not a matter of how good a franchise quarterback is, it is more a matter of "Who else are you going to play at quarterback?"

For example, let's say you're in the middle of the desert and there are 15 vehicles available for sale and 32 people, (and only one vehicle allowed per person). You have to get out of the desert, so you need a vehicle. Some of the vehicles are super high end Ferrari's and others are motored scooters and everything in between.
ALL of them cost 200 grand. What do you do if you can't get the best ones? Do you just walk? You could die if you walk. So you have no choice but to spend top money on the best available vehicle, even if it is just a motored scooter.

The "worth" of something is only relevant to the demand. If there is no alternative, then you have no choice, but to pay a high price for something in a high demand but unsaturated market.
This is why players like Romo, Rivers, Stafford are making huge money, the teams they are playing for don't really have an alternative. The "franchise" quarterback is what allows their team to be competitive.

Romo only got that deal because he is a fav of Jerry Jones, and they couldn't franchise him, his deal voided after the tag deadline had he not extended his deal before 2014.

Rivers was a better QB at the time he got the contract, which was before Kap became something

Stafford deal is a small deal, it is nowhere near Flacco, Ryan, Rodgers, Romo deals.

I dont care if he(Kap) is viewed as "The Franchise QB", he isn't worth $20M a yr. He hasn't shown it. I hate arguing with people over this. Ozzie Newsome is one of the best GMs, but he was forced to give Flacco 120M. Flacco is NOT a $120M over 6yrs guy. He looks average. Which is what Kap looks like right now.

This isnt like the old CBA where you sign draft picks based on potential. You pay now off of what you have done for me lately. 1 and a half year full of starts doesn't equal 20M a yr. Thats my opinion though. We differ. I have no issue with that. I am more o the side of being cautious. I dont see how we can afford Kap at 20M a yr. Players would need to be shed. And is Kap better than haviing a killer D with Bowman, Willis, Brooks, Justin, or a OL with Davis, hopefully Iupati, Boone soon on a new extension, and Staley, who may want an extension soon.

Rogers is the ONLY player who should be cut, no one else is a cut candidate for me. Some for redoes, with extensions, or a help in a restructure, like Rogers, McDonald, and Vernon did for Bowman. VD, McDonald, Brooks, Willis, Bowman could all take less in the next few years, and get a bigger bonus up front. A restructure doesn't mean less money overall, it means he(whoever) gets an up front bonus, and helps the team gain cap room. A straight pay cut like Mario and Goodwin took are lose money as a whole.

Rogers would likely have to waive his final year after 2014 in a pay cut. He would be like Ginn did in 2011. Took less, and became a FA sooner. Although he did re-sign for 1 more year, so that is what the redo or pay cut is for.

I dont see anyone else taking a pay cut, Brooks is well worth the money, plus he could see a de-escalator for 2014 depended on certain clauses. Same for A.Davis and Bowman. So may not need to ask for a redo.

Now Willis, VD and McDonald would make for great redo/extensions, lower their base salaries, get a higher bonus, as part of a new deal.
[ Edited by AB81Rules on Oct 15, 2013 at 6:12 PM ]
Originally posted by AB81Rules:
The contracts for NFL QBs are terrible. Flacco has a $28M cap number(Could be closer to $30M actually, cant remember) in 2016. Even if the cap goes up, it wont be by a lot. That is a cap killer.

I projected a $15M a yr, but now he is in that $10M-$12M a yr QB range. I would say to Kap, take a Rodgers deal from when he first extended his deal. Low 4yr deal. Then he proves himself, and gets to double dip so to speak, gets a bigger extension when the cap FINALLY goes way way up.

Pretty sure Baltimore will renegotiate that number before they get there, especially with the way he's been playing this season, a lot of these bigger contracts just seem to be for bragging rights, I think Flacco is making like $6 million total this season in salary.

But yes, the outlandish QB contracts ultimately end up hurting their own teams and preventing them from retaining quality players. To me it would make more sense to take less money overall, still get a fair deal, but ensure that a team will still be able to stack talent, keep winning and make your money back in endorsements...etc.
  • dwett
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 629
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Originally posted by AB81Rules:
Originally posted by dwett:
I agree with you on Aldon and will get burned for my next statement. Not sold on giving Kaep the huge contract. It is not that he is not talented, but I still question the idea of putting all you eggs into one basket. If Kaep gets Flacco, Rodgers, Ryan money it will put a hurt on our team especially on D for the future.

Is Kaep, Brady or Manning where you can have a weaker WR core OL core and Defense and still win games because you QB is that good, or is he Ryan and Flacco. Very good QBs who under the right circumstances will win you games and more importantly not lose them.

Harbaugh thing is supposed to be QB, so to say we will create a great surrounding team and work via the draft on QB might be an option. If you pay Kaep the big money the surrounding team will lose some great players and Kaep better be up to the challenge.

We may be in the minority that giving Kap a mega sized deal is bad idea. But I agree. Flacco, Ryan, Rodgers money is too much. For only 1 and half years starting. And he looks like he regressed a bit. I still believe in Kap. Just wouldn't go that money for him.


It's the "franchise" quarterback thing though, which is different. So its not a matter of how good a franchise quarterback is, it is more a matter of "Who else are you going to play at quarterback?"

For example, let's say you're in the middle of the desert and there are 15 vehicles available for sale and 32 people, (and only one vehicle allowed per person). You have to get out of the desert, so you need a vehicle. Some of the vehicles are super high end Ferrari's and others are motored scooters and everything in between.
ALL of them cost 200 grand. What do you do if you can't get the best ones? Do you just walk? You could die if you walk. So you have no choice but to spend top money on the best available vehicle, even if it is just a motored scooter.

The "worth" of something is only relevant to the demand. If there is no alternative, then you have no choice, but to pay a high price for something in a high demand but unsaturated market.
This is why players like Romo, Rivers, Stafford are making huge money, the teams they are playing for don't really have an alternative. The "franchise" quarterback is what allows their team to be competitive.
Completely get that. But I will throw this at you. For the car, the journey will require a certain path, to get you to your final destination. Let's say the money you pay on the car effects the road conditions.

So you buy the high end car but have a rougher path due to the fact you money was invested in the car not the road. Will you reach your destination quicker then the "cheaper car" that has the nicer road. Not sure. There is also the idea you could draft a car cheap that with the right tweaking (coaching) can get you close to the quality of the high end car. You now have the smoother road and a great car.
[ Edited by dwett on Oct 15, 2013 at 6:17 PM ]
Originally posted by AB81Rules:
Romo only got that deal because he is a fav of Jerry Jones, and they couldn't franchise him, his deal voided after the tag deadline had he not extended his deal before 2014...




I'm not arguing over whether "ABC" should, would, or could happen. I'm just wondering, "What other choice do we have"? Who will be our quarterback if we let Kap walk?
Aldon would still have to be the priority, after seeing the legal issues play out. I would also rather extend Boone at a reasonable deal than sign Iupati to a monster one. The man is just maddeningly inconsistent in pass pro, and unlike a DE/WR, I can't live with such inconsistency even if he is a great run blocker.
[ Edited by dhp318 on Oct 15, 2013 at 6:23 PM ]
Originally posted by dwett:
Completely get that. But I will throw this at you. For the car, the journey will require a certain path, to get you to your final destination. Let's say the money you pay on the car effects the road conditions.

So you buy the high end car but have a rougher path due to the fact you money was invested in the car not the road. Will you reach your destination quicker then the "cheaper car" that has the nicer road. Not sure. There is also the idea you could draft a car cheap that with the right tweaking (coaching) can get you close to the quality of the high end car. You now have the smoother road and a great car.


The main point is that you need A car. The value of ANY car is almost equal when in a desperate situation.

Like if you are starving, a loaf of stale bread is just as valuable as a $100 plate of fancy food, because the alternative is death.
  • dwett
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 629
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Originally posted by dwett:
Completely get that. But I will throw this at you. For the car, the journey will require a certain path, to get you to your final destination. Let's say the money you pay on the car effects the road conditions.

So you buy the high end car but have a rougher path due to the fact you money was invested in the car not the road. Will you reach your destination quicker then the "cheaper car" that has the nicer road. Not sure. There is also the idea you could draft a car cheap that with the right tweaking (coaching) can get you close to the quality of the high end car. You now have the smoother road and a great car.


The main point is that you need A car. The value of ANY car is almost equal when in a desperate situation.

Like if you are starving, a loaf of stale bread is just as valuable as a $100 plate of fancy food, because the alternative is death.
After I reread it I realized I missed that. My bad. My thought was just that both the road and the car, or the team and the QB are equal in how well your overall journey to the superbowl will go. I was not putting it on do this or starve scenarios. I guess I don't think you have to have a super star QB to survive. So the question I am having is are we better off paying for the QB and having a weaker team or working via the draft every few years for a QB and having a great team around them.
Originally posted by dwett:
After I reread it I realized I missed that. My bad. My thought was just that both the road and the car, or the team and the QB are equal in how well your overall journey to the superbowl will go. I was not putting it on do this or starve scenarios. I guess I don't think you have to have a super star QB to survive. So the question I am having is are we better off paying for the QB and having a weaker team or working via the draft every few years for a QB and having a great team around them.


A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

Jacksonville has been working vie the draft to try and find a quarterback for years. So have the Bills, so have the Rams, so have the Titans, Raiders, Cardinals, Dolphins, Browns.

Once you have a quarterback, you need to keep them. It's very hard to find one in free agency also, which is why KC gave up so much for Alex Smith.
  • dwett
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 629
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Originally posted by dwett:
After I reread it I realized I missed that. My bad. My thought was just that both the road and the car, or the team and the QB are equal in how well your overall journey to the superbowl will go. I was not putting it on do this or starve scenarios. I guess I don't think you have to have a super star QB to survive. So the question I am having is are we better off paying for the QB and having a weaker team or working via the draft every few years for a QB and having a great team around them.


A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

Jacksonville has been working vie the draft to try and find a quarterback for years. So have the Bills, so have the Rams, so have the Titans, Raiders, Cardinals, Dolphins, Browns.

Once you have a quarterback, you need to keep them. It's very hard to find one in free agency also, which is why KC gave up so much for Alex Smith.
Sorry I won't let this go but Alex is a prime example of what I am talking about. His salary cap figure does not hurt the team which is why they paid so much in draft picks to get him.

If he wants 18 mil a year to continue on the Chiefs will have to look elsewhere since I am sure they want to pay those great players on D. The thing is if you can have a decent QB for under 10 mil it opens up so much for the rest of your team. If you pay them 18-20 mil is closes that. Can you be successful having a great overall team and a QB that you pay under 10 mil for. YES. Most of the Superbowl winners were on the front ends of the QBs contracts. So would you be better served to construct a great team and only be looking for one piece even though it is important???
[ Edited by dwett on Oct 15, 2013 at 6:45 PM ]
Originally posted by dwett:
Sorry I won't let this go but Alex is a prime example of what I am talking about. His salary cap figure does not hurt the team which is why they paid so much in draft picks to get him.

If he wants 18 mil a year to continue on the Chiefs will have to look elsewhere since I am sure they want to pay those great players on D. The thing is if you can have a decent QB for under 10 mil it opens up so much for the rest of your team. If you pay them 18-20 mil is closes that. Can you be successful having a great overall team and a QB that you pay under 10 mil for. YES. Most of the Superbowl winners were on the front ends of the QBs contracts. So would you be better served to construct a great team and only be looking for one piece even though it is important???


I think you answered your own question.
  • dwett
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 629
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Originally posted by dwett:
Sorry I won't let this go but Alex is a prime example of what I am talking about. His salary cap figure does not hurt the team which is why they paid so much in draft picks to get him.

If he wants 18 mil a year to continue on the Chiefs will have to look elsewhere since I am sure they want to pay those great players on D. The thing is if you can have a decent QB for under 10 mil it opens up so much for the rest of your team. If you pay them 18-20 mil is closes that. Can you be successful having a great overall team and a QB that you pay under 10 mil for. YES. Most of the Superbowl winners were on the front ends of the QBs contracts. So would you be better served to construct a great team and only be looking for one piece even though it is important???


I think you answered your own question.

No maybe you misunderstood. They were winning them before they got paid. Brees Rodgers even Brady won their super bowls and then got paid the big dollars. None of them have won one since because they are eating up so much salary cap space the team around them is not near the level they once were.
  • dwett
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 629
Originally posted by dwett:
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Originally posted by dwett:
Sorry I won't let this go but Alex is a prime example of what I am talking about. His salary cap figure does not hurt the team which is why they paid so much in draft picks to get him.

If he wants 18 mil a year to continue on the Chiefs will have to look elsewhere since I am sure they want to pay those great players on D. The thing is if you can have a decent QB for under 10 mil it opens up so much for the rest of your team. If you pay them 18-20 mil is closes that. Can you be successful having a great overall team and a QB that you pay under 10 mil for. YES. Most of the Superbowl winners were on the front ends of the QBs contracts. So would you be better served to construct a great team and only be looking for one piece even though it is important???


I think you answered your own question.

No maybe you misunderstood. They were winning them before they got paid. Brees Rodgers even Brady won their super bowls and then got paid the big dollars. None of them have won one since because they are eating up so much salary cap space the team around them is not near the level they once were.
Also I said this earlier. Is Kaep in the same category as Rodgers, Brees, Brady, and Manning. I hope he is if we are going to pay that percentage of our cap for him.
Originally posted by dwett:
Sorry I won't let this go but Alex is a prime example of what I am talking about. His salary cap figure does not hurt the team which is why they paid so much in draft picks to get him.

If he wants 18 mil a year to continue on the Chiefs will have to look elsewhere since I am sure they want to pay those great players on D. The thing is if you can have a decent QB for under 10 mil it opens up so much for the rest of your team. If you pay them 18-20 mil is closes that. Can you be successful having a great overall team and a QB that you pay under 10 mil for. YES. Most of the Superbowl winners were on the front ends of the QBs contracts. So would you be better served to construct a great team and only be looking for one piece even though it is important???

This ^^^. Alex makes like $8M a yr for 2013 and 2014 each.

BrianGO, I understand we have nothing else at QB, but it's a cap killer, we cant afford a $20M a yr QB, and keep a good D, or good OL, or good weapons on board. Until the cap rises more than 5-10M a yr, right now its lucky it is 1M rise. we are screwed. I am understanding Kap is basically viewed as the franchise QB, but it makes no sense to mortgage the future for 1 player, QB or Not. And the FO wont be bullied to give in to a high dollar demand like Romo or Flacco got.

All the deals done have been fair deals. Kap is worth a fair $12-$15M a yr, not $20M. We would have no money to retain Crabs, Iupati, Aldon, others like VD, McDonald, Willis in the future, all of which will/should be extended, since they can play at high levels. Think long term, with others. We need money to build around Kap. We cant give it all to Kap, and expect him to make average WRs look amazing, cause guess what, it hasn't wotked this year. Williams, Moore are average at best. Baldwin has been a bust since entering the NFL, but looks good. Only Boldin and VD are getting open, because of their abilities.

Kap isn't making them get open, or look better, both were at top before Kap entered the league. Only ones that get open besides those two is Vance McDonald, and Jon Baldwin
Originally posted by dwett:
Originally posted by dwett:
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Originally posted by dwett:
Sorry I won't let this go but Alex is a prime example of what I am talking about. His salary cap figure does not hurt the team which is why they paid so much in draft picks to get him.

If he wants 18 mil a year to continue on the Chiefs will have to look elsewhere since I am sure they want to pay those great players on D. The thing is if you can have a decent QB for under 10 mil it opens up so much for the rest of your team. If you pay them 18-20 mil is closes that. Can you be successful having a great overall team and a QB that you pay under 10 mil for. YES. Most of the Superbowl winners were on the front ends of the QBs contracts. So would you be better served to construct a great team and only be looking for one piece even though it is important???


I think you answered your own question.

No maybe you misunderstood. They were winning them before they got paid. Brees Rodgers even Brady won their super bowls and then got paid the big dollars. None of them have won one since because they are eating up so much salary cap space the team around them is not near the level they once were.
Also I said this earlier. Is Kaep in the same category as Rodgers, Brees, Brady, and Manning. I hope he is if we are going to pay that percentage of our cap for him.

Nicely said dwett. I haven't seen a QB who got a huge deal win a SB after a mega deal signed, usually it's after they win the SB they get paid. But I agree with you dwett.
After Aldon's shennanigans, I say Crabs has leap-frogged him for a contract extension.