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Wide receivers ARE getting open!

Originally posted by trellblaze:
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by frozen49er:
We have wide receivers? Huh?

I dont think so, I know we have two pretty good TEs in VD and Boldin.

I know you're joking, but you made me wonder if perhaps Boldin can play TE. Perhaps he could learn to block?

Why?
I agree it is a mixture of Kaeps maturation and GRO's play calling. I think he become infatuated with Kaeps promising abilities and he tends to forget the development and maturation of Kaep as a qb. It seems like at moments he gets lost in his play calling looking for the big play and while this is exciting it also takes away from Kaeps ability to grow as a passer. I believe our personel grouping leaves something to be desired as well. Baldwin should be the #2 opposite Bolden and Williams should be in the slot to create mismatch problems "ala Wes Welker". If we utilize our short passing game and play action that will help relieve the pressure off a young passer. We ran one play for a completion to KW in the slot a "dig" route to be exact and he almost broke it for a long gain. If we stick to creating plays to the strength of our personel vs. plays drwn up that GRO likes to run it will help tremendously. Also I believe we need to incorporate more swing passes to K. Hunter and utilize "chip" blocks as a safety valve vs. this one read crap. Lets do more than just tell people Kaep is more than a one read qb lets actually let his play show he is becoming a more polished passer. More "pick" plays and more slant routes to our bigger WRs will help balance out that man press coverage, you run a couple slant routes and then hit them with a combo "wheel" route is one way to set up the defense. My biggest complaint with the playcalling and Kaeps play progression is that we dont look like we ever have a plan of attack during our posessions it seems like GRO is telling Kaep to just wing it. And Kaep has lost some of his killer instinct to attack the D, Im not saying go out there and force throws but use your legs and run pick up first downs and slide. Kaep isnt RGIII when he ran last year he got out of bounds or he slid to avoid the big collision.
Originally posted by DonnieDarko:
Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
Originally posted by DonnieDarko:
Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
Well actually a lot of analysts have been talking about how Kap isn't seeing his receivers or trusting anyone other than Boldin and Davis. They have been talking about it on Playbook that Kap is missing guys that are running open. People need to realize that it's a two way street. Receivers may not be getting open consistently enough, but they are getting open on plays and Kap isn't seeing or hitting them.

every qb misses open receivers. funny how when crabs and mario are playing, kap plays a lot better. its pretty obvious the answer is that we don't have legit wideouts right now

Well yeah, but he's been missing guys quite often this year. He's not trusting anyone else, even when they have good separation.

I'll give you that. I don't think he has trust in Kyle & Baldwin. That's different than just not knowing how to go through his read progressions.

Oh and one other thing. The pick last game in the endzone was a tipped pass that woulda been a TD to Bruce Miller, and there was another tipped pass that was intended for Baldwin that woulda been a TD as well. So sometimes s**t just happens.

Yeah that's true about the tipped passes. He's still not doing a good job of going through his reads though because more often than not if Boldin or Davis aren't there he either forces it in there anyway or runs around and doesn't keep his eyes down field. I've seen too many times this year Kap scramble left or right, instead of stepping up into the pocket and looking down field. When given time, I don't see him examine the field and go through his reads often. Right now he seems to only see one portion of the field. He has cone vision right now.
Originally posted by 49erWay:
It took Steve Young several years with the 9ers to see open receivers other than Rice.

And he was already a veteran.

So our receivers suck.

Right.

Guys, lets just look at who our WRs are....

We all know Bolden; but after him?

Kyle Wiliams: His 10 receptions this year so far have him on track to have a record year; for him that is....
Jon Baldwin: We traded one of our First Round Busts for KCs first round bust...
Kassim Osgood: The best year of his career was in 2004 where he had 15 catches. 15 catches in 16 games!
Marlon Moore: His first 3 years in the league (the last 3 years), he's averaged 4 receptions per year. His 1 catch on the 2013 season so far has him right on track....
Quinton Patton and Chris Harper: Both are rookies. Quinton is also out with a foot injury...

So, yeah. I'd say our WR corps suck right now!
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
Yeah I think it's also partially the way he's being coached and the play calling. It's a combination of things for why the passing game is struggling. Receivers aren't getting consistent separation (but not nearly as bad as everyone seems to think), the play calling and coaching, the pass protection, and poor play by Kap. Vernon Davis is the only one truly balling out in the passing game.

On a side note, I haven't seen Kap throw with any touch in quite a while. I know he is capable, (see that beautiful long touch pass to Kyle Williams vs. Chicago last year) but he's been bulleting everything this year. He's firing all his passes into receivers, even when they're like 5 yards away. He's got to work on that along with pocket awarenes and going through his reads.

Agreed on all accounts...his QB mechanics certainly are not grounded in WCO principles timed with WR routes. LOL I've been noting his foot work and other issues myself in the CK thread. But that's coaching within the type of offense we run (still the root cause IMHO).

Well I have faith in the QB guru Harbaugh to work on these things with Kap. I also have faith in Kap and I'm critical of him because I expect more out of him. We've all seen the stud young Qb who balled out with a cool demeanor in the playoffs last year. I expect to see that quarterback and expect to see him improve. He just hasn't been playing that great so far this year.
If I am going to throw you the ball you better catch it. If a DB has a leg up you better prevent the pick. You have to want the ball prove it to me by coming through for me. You do this and I gain trust in you and I will look for you.

We got a young QB folks and if he doesn't trust guys they are gonna run interference just like NCCommand said. College offense and the plays are designed for the ball to go to folk most likely to make plays. Kap has to Improve and the offense must evolve. It will or else
[ Edited by Pillbusta on Oct 15, 2013 at 1:23 PM ]
NCommand's lesson in 49er's offense got me to wondering if what he was talking about would explain why Randy Moss said something like that he understood the logic of how he was being used in the offense, but that it wasn't what he wanted to do. Did he mean that he felt like he was being used as one of the "decoys" that had to be covered quite a lot as the #2 receiver, with the play designed to go to Crabtree after Moss and VD had cleared the path underneath for Crabtree? Variations on that theme did result in a lot of important plays last year, including important touchdowns in the post-season. It seemed like Roman would give Moss a couple of shots deep down the field during a game to compensate for all the decoy work, but too often Kap just wasn't in sync with Moss on those plays.
Originally posted by Pillbusta:
If I am going to throw you the ball you better catch it. If a DB has a leg up you better prevent the pick. You have to want the ball prove it to me by coming through for me. You do this and I gain trust in you and I will look for you.

We got a young QB folks and if he doesn't trust guys they are gonna run interference just like NCCommand said. College offense and the plays are designed for the ball to go to folk most likely to make plays. Kap has to Improve and the offense must evolve. It will or else

Kap can't evolve into Tom Brady in one year of starting, it takes time.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Maybe you guys aren't fully understanding the type of college offense we run here so I'll provide video for you: Review the play at 26:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_LHrltRaudY#t=1605

Here you will see CK in shortgun with Gore in the backfield next to him on the left. Davis is split out wide left at the X...Boldin goes in motion from right to left and Baldwin is split out wide right at the Z. Vance McDonald is in the slot on the right side of the ROT. Upon snap, Baldwin sprints straight ahead from the Z, Boldin sprints ahead from the X and both McDonald and VD cross. Boldin immediately draws a CB "and" a S, McDonald draws the MLB (deeper) across the field with him and VD is free (underneath) thanks to Boldin drawing the S. CK hits VD instantly in under 3 seconds for 12 yards on 3rd and 5. Good thing b/c Watt crushed CK just as he released the ball.

BUT, at no point were ANY of the receiving options (Boldin, McDonald nor Baldwin) a true receiving option. There is no "progression reading" here. Gore stays in to block Watt. He is NOT an outlet either. This play is all-or-nothing. If everyone does their job, it's a first down. If it's not, it's a sack or CK is off and scrambling to which, Boldin, McDonald, Baldwin and VD then, all have to ad lib. And we are a terrible ad lib team.

So again, this is not b/c CK is poor at progression reading or "is locking onto receivers." It's b/c there ARE no progression reads built into the offense. It's a college, anti-WCO. This isn't Roman dumbing down the offense b/c CK isn't getting the offense or is struggling right now either. THIS IS OUR OFFENSE. It has nothing to do with the WR's and their "lack of separation." In fact, if this play doesn't work, it means the non-receivers (aka decoys) didn't draw the defenders they were supposed to...or the Texans secondary played it perfectly.

If you're a DC all you need to do is play press coverage, jam the WR's at the LOS and throw a monkey-wrench into the entire play. In fact, if you guessed correctly who to cover (in this case, VD), all you have to do is jam/cover him tight and Watt has a sack. This is exactly how Seattle plays us. And many, MANY of our formations and alignments can be deciphered pre-snap (and you will see the DB or LB call alignments accordingly, pre-snap esp. b/c we take so long to snap the ball).

If you really want to have fun, before each offensive snap, write down pre-snap if you think it will be a run or pass. Later you will get really good at not only identifying whether it's a run or pass but WHO the pass will go to.

And this is EXACTLY what defenses have been doing all season long.
Originally posted by trellblaze:
Not all plays are designed this way. You're taking it to the extreme. But surely you've seen that almost half of them are designed for everyone else on the field to clear out space for Vernon Davis or Michael Crabtree (last season). Roman's M.O. is to get the ball into his play maker's hands by any means necessary. When the D schemes to take a specific player or players out of the game, often the only remedy to that is to dial up a play or two in which the entire team is basically a diversion. ALL TEAMS do this. It is not a new concept by any means and is definitely not unique to our team. It just so happens that Roman does it on a deeper level and far more often than others.

So yes, a LOT of the time there is only one read to make.

That's not to say that Kaepernick hasn't missed a few. Nobody is implying that he is mistake free. Just that most of the sh**t he gets is unwarranted and most people - not implying you personally - don't have the slightest clue as to what they're talking about when they're critiquing his play.

The thing is, this offense has a lot of playmakers, its not as much of a poverty offense as some make it sound, beyond Boldin and Davis you have McDonald, you have LaMichael James as threat for screen plays and so on, you have Baldwin who is big and has tremendous length, its just a matter of utilizing all these weapons and spreading the ball around, calling plays for them to be successful and keep the defense on its toes, Roman sucks at that.
Originally posted by Niners99:
People forget our QB is still a kid who just completed his first full season worth of starts. The whole "leading us to the SB" thing makes you forget, but hes still learning. Hes going to miss open receivers, rely on only his favorites, and hesitate in the pocket. Be patient, hes going to be one of the very best in the business someday soon.

He needs to work on trusting his WR to be where the ball is going. He just doesnt have the reps with Williams or Baldwin yet. He doesnt trust them to be there. He trusts Boldin and Davis, which is why he tries to force balls their way over taking a chance at a potentially open Jon Baldwin.

He also needs to step up in the pocket and throw (or run). Hes gotten into a bad habit of running backwards toward the sidelines and throwing off his back leg. Maybe his foot issue is causing this, but he'll be fine.

This needs to be coached. They need to make Baldwin the first or second read more often and tell him to make the tight throws as this is essential to opening up the passing game. He's caught in a mind loop of only trusting Davis and Boldin and not taking chances on other receivers, which results in him never developing chemistry or trust in them. Around and around it goes. This is on Harbaugh. Coach him up on this...
Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NinerG94:
Originally posted by 49ersHeroine:
Kali49er, great post. I agree with you all the way. Me and my friends have been talking about this. He's been open quite a bit since the rams game. Kap is a lock on one wide out QB. 1st it was Crabs, then Boldin now most logical VD. As much as Vernon is my favorite Niner. We're going to have to start getting the ball to Baldwin especially with VD and Boldin double/triple teamed. Baldwin 6'4 235 pounds fast with a 42 freakin inch vertical and he gets single coverage every snap. Dude Kaps needs to get it together!

I don't get the love for measurables around here. Baldwin gets zero separation. You don't just throw up a lob every time you get single coverage. Baldwin may have a 42" vertical but he has zero ball skills. NONE. You act like its comparable to throwing one up to Julio or Calvin. Those are the type of WR's you throw one up to in single coverage. Those guys you can count on to make a play. Baldwin has shown nothing. He hasn't even shown he can make uncontested catches and you want to start throwing up jump balls to him? Aside from his size and slight ability to get off press coverage he's worthless. As soon as Manningham is healthy, Baldwin is heading straight to the bench.

When have we thrown a ball to him that is even remotely catchable.

ANSWER: None.

He made a sensational catch two weeks ago on a ball that was thrown so far outside that he had no chance to get his feet down. The thing that many are overlooking is that he had 41 catches over the past two years on balls thrown his way by some of the worst QBs in recent history. So let's not go down that road that says he has no skills. He has plenty of skills. He just is being used as a decoy and blockers as NC noted previously. The problem is that our "wonderful, creative offensive coaches" still think they are at Stanford. This is the NFL which stands for Not For Long if you think you can run a college offense forever in this league. Just look at how quickly the league trumped the read/option.

Exactly. That catch baldwin made was spectacular. Too bad it was thrown out of bounds. And how often have we even thrown to our other wrs. Kap hardly ever looks their way.

In that same game, Kaep targeted him one other time with what appeared to be a back shoulder throw but it sailed 5 yards over his head and out of bounds. That was the extent of the throws that went to him.

NC had a nice post back about 3 pages that summed it up. This offense is doing what Harbaugh wants it to do. It is Bo Schembechler reincarnate. Passing is a necessary evil that you have to do occasionally because you can't run between the tackles every play.
Originally posted by DonnieDarko:
Originally posted by Pillbusta:
If I am going to throw you the ball you better catch it. If a DB has a leg up you better prevent the pick. You have to want the ball prove it to me by coming through for me. You do this and I gain trust in you and I will look for you.

We got a young QB folks and if he doesn't trust guys they are gonna run interference just like NCCommand said. College offense and the plays are designed for the ball to go to folk most likely to make plays. Kap has to Improve and the offense must evolve. It will or else

Kap can't evolve into Tom Brady in one year of starting, it takes time.

Obvioiusly, NE runs a TOTALLY different offense than us...a spread offense with mutliple receiving options on every play.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Agreed, this was dispelled in the CK thread with video analysis and screen shots (even in the podcast). Right now, the bigger issue is the TYPE of offense we run more than anything. If you are looking at the "big picture" you will see many guys open somewhere in their routes but this is a college offense, the anti-WCO (sorry to sound like a broken record here but ppl still aren't getting this)...this is an offense designed to get ONE receiver the ball while the other receivers clear out space, block down field with the ball in the air, become decoys (i.e. Moss, Kilgore/Miller split out wide, etc.). The issue is, if that primary receiver IS covered, CK has no real built-in outlets like a WCO has. In fact, if that read is covered, CK is off and running. This is why we needed a more "mobile" QB (and Smith was a very mobile QB).

So again, the WR's are NOT the issue here...they ARE getting open if you're watching from the sky box (or coaches film). Watch any Niner passing play, see where the ball goes and then rewind and watch the other WR's. You'll all see them "play their part." Further evidence was highighted in our game plan last week...plays designed to get VD and Boldin the ball with a combined 11 catches whereas Williams, Baldwin, Miller, McDonald and Dixon all only had 1 catch each.

This is the trend/game plan every game!

This is very good info and explains a lot. You are right the trend is absolutely clear. This is obviously not going to work and it's throttling the offense. But why are they running this scheme? How does it make sense? Is it that they don't trust Kap to make multiple reads? It's crippling our passing game.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Agreed, this was dispelled in the CK thread with video analysis and screen shots (even in the podcast). Right now, the bigger issue is the TYPE of offense we run more than anything. If you are looking at the "big picture" you will see many guys open somewhere in their routes but this is a college offense, the anti-WCO (sorry to sound like a broken record here but ppl still aren't getting this)...this is an offense designed to get ONE receiver the ball while the other receivers clear out space, block down field with the ball in the air, become decoys (i.e. Moss, Kilgore/Miller split out wide, etc.). The issue is, if that primary receiver IS covered, CK has no real built-in outlets like a WCO has. In fact, if that read is covered, CK is off and running. This is why we needed a more "mobile" QB (and Smith was a very mobile QB).

So again, the WR's are NOT the issue here...they ARE getting open if you're watching from the sky box (or coaches film). Watch any Niner passing play, see where the ball goes and then rewind and watch the other WR's. You'll all see them "play their part." Further evidence was highighted in our game plan last week...plays designed to get VD and Boldin the ball with a combined 11 catches whereas Williams, Baldwin, Miller, McDonald and Dixon all only had 1 catch each.

This is the trend/game plan every game!

This is in essence the running game philosophy applied to the passing game. I knew we were having players act as role-models on passing plays, but the fact that there are few reads and that we win or lose the play on pre-snap explains so much as to why the running game is always effective and the passing game struggles. Teams have studied this offense over the years and defenses have begun to determine where to throw the ball. This would also explain why Davis is so effective because he rarely gets a full jam off the LOS because he's inline to block. Furthermore it explains why there isn't a rhythm to the passing plays, where the QB has a number of options/check-downs. This offense 100% relies on the primary option beating his jam/coverage. Hmm I don't know if the 49ers will ever have a big passing attack unless the offensive philosophy will change. Gearing a play to have all 10 guys essentially feature one receiver is problematic over time. I can see how this really benefits a runner because the blocks happen almost simultaneously as the runner gets to the holes at the LOS, but a receiver? That's a bit different since there's contact.