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Wide receivers ARE getting open!

Originally posted by eonblue:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Thank you! You get it!!! 11 combined "game plan" receptions for Boldin/VD. 1 for everyone else. It's by DESIGN people...everyone is so focused on surface-level "issues" that they aren't seeing the foundation. Everyone is doing exactly what they are supposed to including CK but if one link breaks in this chain, the play is blown up.

You cannot tell me everyone is doing exactly what theyre supposed to be doing.

I'm finding it hard to believe some of you actually think the gameplan/calls only have one targetable reciever.

Theyre are multiple option, and coverage dictates target.

Kaep is missing reads. Plain and simple.

This is not by design and if it is Baalkes going to be firing someone soon because he was not very happy when Kaep was missing wide open receiver againt Houston.

Not all plays are designed this way. You're taking it to the extreme. But surely you've seen that almost half of them are designed for everyone else on the field to clear out space for Vernon Davis or Michael Crabtree (last season). Roman's M.O. is to get the ball into his play maker's hands by any means necessary. When the D schemes to take a specific player or players out of the game, often the only remedy to that is to dial up a play or two in which the entire team is basically a diversion. ALL TEAMS do this. It is not a new concept by any means and is definitely not unique to our team. It just so happens that Roman does it on a deeper level and far more often than others.

So yes, a LOT of the time there is only one read to make.

That's not to say that Kaepernick hasn't missed a few. Nobody is implying that he is mistake free. Just that most of the sh**t he gets is unwarranted and most people - not implying you personally - don't have the slightest clue as to what they're talking about when they're critiquing his play.
Originally posted by trellblaze:
Originally posted by Buchy:
Another poster in the forum made a very good point on this, the receiver needs to be open at the right TIME otherwise it's pointless. The time they are open must match the play call and the QB drop back and read timing otherwise he's onto the next read, and that poster was right.

Doesn't matter if Baldwin is 10 yards open if it's 3 seconds after he's supposed to be, Kap might already have moved on to check other side of the field.

Play design might be an issue in this case....

Yea, I think you're referring to me >>>>>>>>

Oct 14, 2013 at 9:40 AM
#10131

Geeze all you guys who keep saying "Kaepernick only makes one read and stares him down the whole play", just stop it. I can tell most of you have no idea what you're talking about. You saw Mayock point it out on a few occasions during ONE game and are simply running away with it. I can't count how many times I've read "well what good is getting all his weapons back gonna do if he only makes one read?"

Kaepernick does NOT make one read and throw the ball. Also, as someone previously mentioned, you do not look off the safety on every play. Otherwise, the defense would know that you're going to throw to the opposite side of the field that you're looking at every time. How effective would a "look off" be if the safety knows you're just looking him off?

A lot of reads are made BEFORE the ball is even snapped. You know where you're going to go with the ball based on the defense that you see. If you already know where you're supposed to go with the ball - if you already have the matchup that a particular play was designed for, what "progression" is there to go through?

Do you know how many time's I've seen guys like Peyton Manning and Tom Brady make huge throws without even checking to see if the guy was covered? That's because they knew before the snap, based on where the defense was going to go vs where the play was designed, exactly where the WR was going to be vs the defender. Kaepernick is not on their level on the pre-snap process but that doesn't mean he simply looks at a WR and throws him the ball. Of all the ridiculous reasons given for Kaepernick's struggles - and there have been many ridiculous ones - this one is at the very top.

Understand the what you're looking at before you go criticizing it. Different situations and play-calls call for different reactions by each player. Kaepernick goes through reads when he's supposed to. When he does, nobody is open at the right time. That's right, on some plays, there are certain times/windows that the WR should be open. It doesn't matter if Kyle Williams is open by 10 yards if he got open 2 seconds AFTER the play was designed to get him open. By that time, Kaepernick has probably moved on to - dare I say it - his second read and no longer sees Williams. It may also be that Williams is open by 10 yards because the defense, in their scheme, realizes that Williams missed his window and have released him to focus on where the QB is currently looking. They know he's not going to get a chance to go back to Williams or is not in a position to make an accurate throw towards him.

That's just one of soooo many different scenarios.


END POST


NCommand's post was also a GREAT breakdown of how our offense works. I think everyone needs to read his post and truly understand it. You'll then understand our play calling and a number of other things about our offense.

Yes but one would think that after Colin sees it on tape, then he will hold it for a quick second longer or look back that way once he is ready to move out of the pocket.
Originally posted by eonblue:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Thank you! You get it!!! 11 combined "game plan" receptions for Boldin/VD. 1 for everyone else. It's by DESIGN people...everyone is so focused on surface-level "issues" that they aren't seeing the foundation. Everyone is doing exactly what they are supposed to including CK but if one link breaks in this chain, the play is blown up.

You cannot tell me everyone is doing exactly what theyre supposed to be doing.

I'm finding it hard to believe some of you actually think the gameplan/calls only have one targetable reciever.

Theyre are multiple option, and coverage dictates target.

Kaep is missing reads. Plain and simple.

This is not by design and if it is Baalkes going to be firing someone soon because he was not very happy when Kaep was missing wide open receiver againt Houston.

Well true, if someone DOESN'T do their job, the play is blown up...but watch every pass play (typically thrown under 3 seconds) and you'll see what I've been highlighting for quite some time now.

Ironically, where there "may" be two receiving options is in the RZ for some reason but typically, it's a sprint right one-receiver option. CK hesitated this past w/e, it was tipped and then intercepted. In the Hawks game, his pass s/h been made before VD made his break and it was not...it was slightly late and Thurmond broke off his route and picked it off in the EZ.

So while the foundation of our offense is the same, there can be break downs...in fact, that is sort of my point...if ONE chain breaks, it's a broken play. This is NOT a WCO where a QB have multiple reads, progressions and receiving options on every single pass play.

Here is another example of when a chain breaks the play instantly becomes ad lib. Green Bay game, 4Q, critical drive to run out the clock. We needed to convert on 3rd down. Boldin is in the Z (wide right) and Williams is in the slot (but lined up right next to Boldin). It's a sprint right with CK and supposed to be a quick pass to Boldin as Williams picks off his DB. Instead, Williams is literally chucked back by the DB "into" Boldin and blows up the play completely. Luckily, Boldin ad libs, CK continues to by time with his legs and hits Boldin for the first down. Boldin is an experienced veteran who found the soft zone on a broken play. Game over.
[ Edited by NCommand on Oct 15, 2013 at 11:33 AM ]
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by trellblaze:
Originally posted by Buchy:
Another poster in the forum made a very good point on this, the receiver needs to be open at the right TIME otherwise it's pointless. The time they are open must match the play call and the QB drop back and read timing otherwise he's onto the next read, and that poster was right.

Doesn't matter if Baldwin is 10 yards open if it's 3 seconds after he's supposed to be, Kap might already have moved on to check other side of the field.

Play design might be an issue in this case....

Yea, I think you're referring to me >>>>>>>>

Oct 14, 2013 at 9:40 AM
#10131

Geeze all you guys who keep saying "Kaepernick only makes one read and stares him down the whole play", just stop it. I can tell most of you have no idea what you're talking about. You saw Mayock point it out on a few occasions during ONE game and are simply running away with it. I can't count how many times I've read "well what good is getting all his weapons back gonna do if he only makes one read?"

Kaepernick does NOT make one read and throw the ball. Also, as someone previously mentioned, you do not look off the safety on every play. Otherwise, the defense would know that you're going to throw to the opposite side of the field that you're looking at every time. How effective would a "look off" be if the safety knows you're just looking him off?

A lot of reads are made BEFORE the ball is even snapped. You know where you're going to go with the ball based on the defense that you see. If you already know where you're supposed to go with the ball - if you already have the matchup that a particular play was designed for, what "progression" is there to go through?

Do you know how many time's I've seen guys like Peyton Manning and Tom Brady make huge throws without even checking to see if the guy was covered? That's because they knew before the snap, based on where the defense was going to go vs where the play was designed, exactly where the WR was going to be vs the defender. Kaepernick is not on their level on the pre-snap process but that doesn't mean he simply looks at a WR and throws him the ball. Of all the ridiculous reasons given for Kaepernick's struggles - and there have been many ridiculous ones - this one is at the very top.

Understand the what you're looking at before you go criticizing it. Different situations and play-calls call for different reactions by each player. Kaepernick goes through reads when he's supposed to. When he does, nobody is open at the right time. That's right, on some plays, there are certain times/windows that the WR should be open. It doesn't matter if Kyle Williams is open by 10 yards if he got open 2 seconds AFTER the play was designed to get him open. By that time, Kaepernick has probably moved on to - dare I say it - his second read and no longer sees Williams. It may also be that Williams is open by 10 yards because the defense, in their scheme, realizes that Williams missed his window and have released him to focus on where the QB is currently looking. They know he's not going to get a chance to go back to Williams or is not in a position to make an accurate throw towards him.

That's just one of soooo many different scenarios.


END POST


NCommand's post was also a GREAT breakdown of how our offense works. I think everyone needs to read his post and truly understand it. You'll then understand our play calling and a number of other things about our offense.

Yes but one would think that after Colin sees it on tape, then he will hold it for a quick second longer or look back that way once he is ready to move out of the pocket.


It doesn't happen that quickly. You need that time in in-game experience to develop that feel in the pocket and for the game to slow down in your head. Otherwise, every rookie would just look at the tape of his first game and then in the second game, poof! All problems gone.
Why is it so hard for people to just admit that CK is missing open receivers that he shouldn't be?

You can make every excuse in the world as to WHY or HOW or HOW OFTEN OR NOT it's happening, but in the end, you're still having to admit he's missing open guys and that it needs to improve. CK doesn't need to be defended. Let him just work it out. No one's going to say he's perfect -- he's not -- but I've accepted that no matter how impatient I am, nothing is going to change the fact that we'll have to wait it out and hope for the best.

I don't see any point in arguing over this issue and beating it to death. It is what it is, and either CK has to take it upon himself, or the coaches have to find a way to work with him to rectify it. We have 10 regular season games left. Here's to seeing what's to come.

Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Why is it so hard for people to just admit that CK is missing open receivers that he shouldn't be?

You can make every excuse in the world as to WHY or HOW or HOW OFTEN OR NOT it's happening, but in the end, you're still having to admit he's missing open guys and that it needs to improve. CK doesn't need to be defended. Let him just work it out. No one's going to say he's perfect -- he's not -- but I've accepted that no matter how impatient I am, nothing is going to change the fact that we'll have to wait it out and hope for the best.

I don't see any point in arguing over this issue and beating it to death. It is what it is, and either CK has to take it upon himself, or the coaches have to find a way to work with him to rectify it. We have 10 regular season games left. Here's to seeing what's to come.


its probably easier to admit that every QB misses open receivers
Originally posted by Buchy:
Another poster in the forum made a very good point on this, the receiver needs to be open at the right TIME otherwise it's pointless. The time they are open must match the play call and the QB drop back and read timing otherwise he's onto the next read, and that poster was right.

Doesn't matter if Baldwin is 10 yards open if it's 3 seconds after he's supposed to be, Kap might already have moved on to check other side of the field.

Play design might be an issue in this case....

I do not think it is one thing or the other, but a combo. I did not notice the open receivers this game but I wasn't really looking either. But I have noticed it during other games ... Kaep missing WIDE open receivers because he did not even look. It seems to me he is getting happy feet in the pocket this year more than he should ... just not settled.

I believe it is a combination of things.

  • He is still young and learning, and reading D's and going through progressions should get better.
  • He is working more out of the pro set and it is new to him ... not as comfortable.

  • Losing Crabtree was tougher on him than I thought it would be ... lack of the one receiver he really trusted to throw open.

Defenses and DC's having more film to game plan against him.

Focusing again on the power run game. Hard to get continuity.

There may be more. All this being said, there is not one QB I would trade Kaep for straight up. And I am dead serious about that. I think within a few years he could be a perennial league MVP candidate.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by trellblaze:
Originally posted by Buchy:
Another poster in the forum made a very good point on this, the receiver needs to be open at the right TIME otherwise it's pointless. The time they are open must match the play call and the QB drop back and read timing otherwise he's onto the next read, and that poster was right.

Doesn't matter if Baldwin is 10 yards open if it's 3 seconds after he's supposed to be, Kap might already have moved on to check other side of the field.

Play design might be an issue in this case....

Yea, I think you're referring to me >>>>>>>>

Oct 14, 2013 at 9:40 AM
#10131

Geeze all you guys who keep saying "Kaepernick only makes one read and stares him down the whole play", just stop it. I can tell most of you have no idea what you're talking about. You saw Mayock point it out on a few occasions during ONE game and are simply running away with it. I can't count how many times I've read "well what good is getting all his weapons back gonna do if he only makes one read?"

Kaepernick does NOT make one read and throw the ball. Also, as someone previously mentioned, you do not look off the safety on every play. Otherwise, the defense would know that you're going to throw to the opposite side of the field that you're looking at every time. How effective would a "look off" be if the safety knows you're just looking him off?

A lot of reads are made BEFORE the ball is even snapped. You know where you're going to go with the ball based on the defense that you see. If you already know where you're supposed to go with the ball - if you already have the matchup that a particular play was designed for, what "progression" is there to go through?

Do you know how many time's I've seen guys like Peyton Manning and Tom Brady make huge throws without even checking to see if the guy was covered? That's because they knew before the snap, based on where the defense was going to go vs where the play was designed, exactly where the WR was going to be vs the defender. Kaepernick is not on their level on the pre-snap process but that doesn't mean he simply looks at a WR and throws him the ball. Of all the ridiculous reasons given for Kaepernick's struggles - and there have been many ridiculous ones - this one is at the very top.

Understand the what you're looking at before you go criticizing it. Different situations and play-calls call for different reactions by each player. Kaepernick goes through reads when he's supposed to. When he does, nobody is open at the right time. That's right, on some plays, there are certain times/windows that the WR should be open. It doesn't matter if Kyle Williams is open by 10 yards if he got open 2 seconds AFTER the play was designed to get him open. By that time, Kaepernick has probably moved on to - dare I say it - his second read and no longer sees Williams. It may also be that Williams is open by 10 yards because the defense, in their scheme, realizes that Williams missed his window and have released him to focus on where the QB is currently looking. They know he's not going to get a chance to go back to Williams or is not in a position to make an accurate throw towards him.

That's just one of soooo many different scenarios.


END POST


NCommand's post was also a GREAT breakdown of how our offense works. I think everyone needs to read his post and truly understand it. You'll then understand our play calling and a number of other things about our offense.

Yes but one would think that after Colin sees it on tape, then he will hold it for a quick second longer or look back that way once he is ready to move out of the pocket.

Colin is definitely not on a smooth moving sailboat as far as these things go. I pointed that out in the post, in fact. I also pointed out that guys who do these things are often on a Tom Brady level as far as experience and skill level (not in those exact words).

The Bradys, Mannings, Breezs of this world do far more knowing than reading during the play (the make a lot of reads pre-snap). That's what separates them from the Newtons, Lockers, and Kaepernicks. The good thing about Kaepernick is that we've seen flashes of what he's capable of if and when he starts knowing.

That said, I think it's ridiculous for us to expect him to get to that level this season or even next. However, he doesn't have to be for this team to win a championship (see Flacco, Joe).
Solid thread topic.

Of course the play calling is currently tailored to this very new QB's development.

Or do people expect Steve Young in his hall of fame form out of Kaepernick before he's even started 20 games?

To except that is sheer idiocy.
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Why is it so hard for people to just admit that CK is missing open receivers that he shouldn't be?

You can make every excuse in the world as to WHY or HOW or HOW OFTEN OR NOT it's happening, but in the end, you're still having to admit he's missing open guys and that it needs to improve. CK doesn't need to be defended. Let him just work it out. No one's going to say he's perfect -- he's not -- but I've accepted that no matter how impatient I am, nothing is going to change the fact that we'll have to wait it out and hope for the best.

I don't see any point in arguing over this issue and beating it to death. It is what it is, and either CK has to take it upon himself, or the coaches have to find a way to work with him to rectify it. We have 10 regular season games left. Here's to seeing what's to come.


its probably easier to admit that every QB misses open receivers

Agreed. That said, if he is being instructed/coached to hit the targeted receiver (and he's covered) to then run/scramble or throw it away (ala Alex...same exact "issues" with two different QB's), then CK is doing his job. This is a conservative coaching staff...sure IF while he's scrambling and he sees VD open by 15 yards (safe, high % play) he can take it but coaching, IMHO, is clearly a major factor here. And yes, he IS missing receivers even when he ad libs and is scrambling...some badly (doesn't see the open man or throws a very poor pass).
[ Edited by NCommand on Oct 15, 2013 at 12:18 PM ]
Originally posted by 49erWay:
Solid thread topic.

Of course the play calling is currently tailored to this very new QB's development.

Or do people expect Steve Young in his hall of fame form out of Kaepernick before he's even started 20 games?

To except that is sheer idiocy.

No, it was exactly the same for Alex Smith here as well. All of the "issues" people were complaining about here with Alex are identical to CK now...what's the common factor in all of this?
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NinerG94:
Originally posted by 49ersHeroine:
Kali49er, great post. I agree with you all the way. Me and my friends have been talking about this. He's been open quite a bit since the rams game. Kap is a lock on one wide out QB. 1st it was Crabs, then Boldin now most logical VD. As much as Vernon is my favorite Niner. We're going to have to start getting the ball to Baldwin especially with VD and Boldin double/triple teamed. Baldwin 6'4 235 pounds fast with a 42 freakin inch vertical and he gets single coverage every snap. Dude Kaps needs to get it together!

I don't get the love for measurables around here. Baldwin gets zero separation. You don't just throw up a lob every time you get single coverage. Baldwin may have a 42" vertical but he has zero ball skills. NONE. You act like its comparable to throwing one up to Julio or Calvin. Those are the type of WR's you throw one up to in single coverage. Those guys you can count on to make a play. Baldwin has shown nothing. He hasn't even shown he can make uncontested catches and you want to start throwing up jump balls to him? Aside from his size and slight ability to get off press coverage he's worthless. As soon as Manningham is healthy, Baldwin is heading straight to the bench.

When have we thrown a ball to him that is even remotely catchable.

ANSWER: None.

He made a sensational catch two weeks ago on a ball that was thrown so far outside that he had no chance to get his feet down. The thing that many are overlooking is that he had 41 catches over the past two years on balls thrown his way by some of the worst QBs in recent history. So let's not go down that road that says he has no skills. He has plenty of skills. He just is being used as a decoy and blockers as NC noted previously. The problem is that our "wonderful, creative offensive coaches" still think they are at Stanford. This is the NFL which stands for Not For Long if you think you can run a college offense forever in this league. Just look at how quickly the league trumped the read/option.

Exactly. That catch baldwin made was spectacular. Too bad it was thrown out of bounds. And how often have we even thrown to our other wrs. Kap hardly ever looks their way.
[ Edited by pwillis52beasty on Oct 15, 2013 at 12:36 PM ]
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by 49erWay:
Solid thread topic.

Of course the play calling is currently tailored to this very new QB's development.

Or do people expect Steve Young in his hall of fame form out of Kaepernick before he's even started 20 games?

To except that is sheer idiocy.

No, it was exactly the same for Alex Smith here as well. All of the "issues" people were complaining about here with Alex are identical to CK now...what's the common factor in all of this?

I agree to an extent, but you have to consider that Smith's ceiling was most likely reached. Kaepernick's hasn't been yet. He also hasn't reached a reasonable level of experience to warrant a change in play calling yet. It's quite possible that he may never reach his potential but haven't we seen enough to have faith that he will?

Based on the lineup we're putting on the field, Roman's M.O. of getting the ball into the hands of the best available playmaker is a reasonable strategy. As you and I already agreed upon, this means that the play will either result in something spectacular or an absolute dud. But do we really have any other options at this exact moment?
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Why is it so hard for people to just admit that CK is missing open receivers that he shouldn't be?

You can make every excuse in the world as to WHY or HOW or HOW OFTEN OR NOT it's happening, but in the end, you're still having to admit he's missing open guys and that it needs to improve. CK doesn't need to be defended. Let him just work it out. No one's going to say he's perfect -- he's not -- but I've accepted that no matter how impatient I am, nothing is going to change the fact that we'll have to wait it out and hope for the best.

I don't see any point in arguing over this issue and beating it to death. It is what it is, and either CK has to take it upon himself, or the coaches have to find a way to work with him to rectify it. We have 10 regular season games left. Here's to seeing what's to come.


its probably easier to admit that every QB misses open receivers

Nah. Not possible. They always have add something onto that -- I guess everyone has to do it the hard way and create massive flame wars.

We get it. CK is young and not making the plays/capitalizing on opportunities that Manning, Brees, Manning, and maybe even Alex likely would if they were on the team starting. But again.. it is what it is for the moment. Steve Young wasn't Steve Young overnight. We all expect improvement eventually, some are just more impatient than others.
[ Edited by OnTheClock on Oct 15, 2013 at 12:16 PM ]
We have wide receivers? Huh?
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