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Wide receivers ARE getting open!

Originally posted by elguapo:
Too many analysts and fans can't be wrong........the niners Wrs do not get consistently open or seperation......including boldin. Sure at times, very rarely, Williams and Baldwin get open but it's not only rare, but usually against weaker secondaries. The blame should be 80percent on the Wrs and 20percent if that on kaep. Other great qbs get the ball out quick BUT their second and third reads are usually open or get seperation before the throw it to them, something our Wrs cannot do.

Key word: consistent. Sure you can argue that the receivers do get open, get separation and at times, Kap should be blamed for not progressing through his reads and hitting other targets. But more often than not, the receivers do struggle getting open and getting separation. They lack consistency.
Originally posted by Niners99:
People forget our QB is still a kid who just completed his first full season worth of starts. The whole "leading us to the SB" thing makes you forget, but hes still learning. Hes going to miss open receivers, rely on only his favorites, and hesitate in the pocket. Be patient, hes going to be one of the very best in the business someday soon.

He needs to work on trusting his WR to be where the ball is going. He just doesnt have the reps with Williams or Baldwin yet. He doesnt trust them to be there. He trusts Boldin and Davis, which is why he tries to force balls their way over taking a chance at a potentially open Jon Baldwin.

He also needs to step up in the pocket and throw (or run). Hes gotten into a bad habit of running backwards toward the sidelines and throwing off his back leg. Maybe his foot issue is causing this, but he'll be fine.

Good post.

Kevin Lynch, the Chronicle beat writer, made an observation on CK last week that I have found to be true. Lynch said he has been watching CK's helmet angle on passing plays. What he observed is that Kaepernick's first looks is almost always to Boldin, if he is not open, the next thing is that his helmet tilts down as he looks at the OL to check the protection. By this time, he rarely looks another direction. If he does, it is to Davis. Hardly ever does he go back to the opposite side of the field from Boldin. So, with Baldwin or Williams almost always opposite Boldin, those guys rarely get a look from Kaepernick.

We can write all this off to lack of experience but what concerns me is that Kaepernick does not appear to have made any improvement in going through his progressions this season. Of course, in many cases, he is only given two options in the play design but when he does have another option, he doesn't appear to go there. Roman needs to give him more opportunities with multiple wide outs so he can learn. We won't go far with this passing offense come playoff time. We also can't expect the Crabtree will be the magic wand either. It would be a miracle if he comes back to 100% of what he was last season. Achilles just take more time than that to heal and allow adequate muscle build up. Gonna have to see some progress from the QB. "Young and inexperienced" only last so long.
Originally posted by dj43:
Good post.

Kevin Lynch, the Chronicle beat writer, made an observation on CK last week that I have found to be true. Lynch said he has been watching CK's helmet angle on passing plays. What he observed is that Kaepernick's first looks is almost always to Boldin, if he is not open, the next thing is that his helmet tilts down as he looks at the OL to check the protection. By this time, he rarely looks another direction. If he does, it is to Davis. Hardly ever does he go back to the opposite side of the field from Boldin. So, with Baldwin or Williams almost always opposite Boldin, those guys rarely get a look from Kaepernick.

We can write all this off to lack of experience but what concerns me is that Kaepernick does not appear to have made any improvement in going through his progressions this season. Of course, in many cases, he is only given two options in the play design but when he does have another option, he doesn't appear to go there. Roman needs to give him more opportunities with multiple wide outs so he can learn. We won't go far with this passing offense come playoff time. We also can't expect the Crabtree will be the magic wand either. It would be a miracle if he comes back to 100% of what he was last season. Achilles just take more time than that to heal and allow adequate muscle build up. Gonna have to see some progress from the QB. "Young and inexperienced" only last so long.

Do not discount our offensive line not being the best pass blockers either. Crabtree is going to need a few weeks to get back in game shape once he is cleared to practice, but from what I have read his injury is less serious than what Mario had to deal with. Looks like Kobe is already getting back on the practice court, Crabtree should be getting close too.
Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
Also everyone is making too many excuses for Kap. Talking about how the receivers need to be open at the right time.

There are some pass plays that are quick reads and the quarterback is suppose to get the ball out immediately, but these plays are few and far between. Most plays have progressions that you go through if your first read isn't there.

Kap has not done a good job at all this year of going through his progressions. The great quarterbacks have field vision and go through their reads. You see this from the likes of Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Brees, and our own great Montana who was the King of going through his progressions.

Kap has displayed cone vision a lot of times this year. If his first or second read on one side of the field isn't there, he has been panicking and either firing passes at 100 mph into blanketed coverage or running out of the pocket. He needs to work on his pocket awareness, step up in the pocket and go through his reads.

Let's stop putting all the blame on the wide receivers. The wideouts haven't been the best this year, but there have been a lot of times where they have gotten separation and Kap just isn't seeing them or hitting them. Kap needs to do a better job of going through his reads and that's the reality of the situation.

The wide receivers havent been the best? They are the absolute worst in the league!

Boldin isnt a #1, hes to slow! He cant even get separation. Vernon is the only good "receiver" on the team. Is kap going to go through his progressions to kyle williams, the guy who gets pushed around like a rag doll?

Receivers make a difference! Just look at the Jags' horrible qbs get 300 yd games with justin blackmon
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Niners99:
People forget our QB is still a kid who just completed his first full season worth of starts. The whole "leading us to the SB" thing makes you forget, but hes still learning. Hes going to miss open receivers, rely on only his favorites, and hesitate in the pocket. Be patient, hes going to be one of the very best in the business someday soon.

He needs to work on trusting his WR to be where the ball is going. He just doesnt have the reps with Williams or Baldwin yet. He doesnt trust them to be there. He trusts Boldin and Davis, which is why he tries to force balls their way over taking a chance at a potentially open Jon Baldwin.

He also needs to step up in the pocket and throw (or run). Hes gotten into a bad habit of running backwards toward the sidelines and throwing off his back leg. Maybe his foot issue is causing this, but he'll be fine.

Good post.

Kevin Lynch, the Chronicle beat writer, made an observation on CK last week that I have found to be true. Lynch said he has been watching CK's helmet angle on passing plays. What he observed is that Kaepernick's first looks is almost always to Boldin, if he is not open, the next thing is that his helmet tilts down as he looks at the OL to check the protection. By this time, he rarely looks another direction. If he does, it is to Davis. Hardly ever does he go back to the opposite side of the field from Boldin. So, with Baldwin or Williams almost always opposite Boldin, those guys rarely get a look from Kaepernick.

We can write all this off to lack of experience but what concerns me is that Kaepernick does not appear to have made any improvement in going through his progressions this season. Of course, in many cases, he is only given two options in the play design but when he does have another option, he doesn't appear to go there. Roman needs to give him more opportunities with multiple wide outs so he can learn. We won't go far with this passing offense come playoff time. We also can't expect the Crabtree will be the magic wand either. It would be a miracle if he comes back to 100% of what he was last season. Achilles just take more time than that to heal and allow adequate muscle build up. Gonna have to see some progress from the QB. "Young and inexperienced" only last so long.

I tend to agree, Kaepernick has a huge problem of locking onto receivers. What I find interesting this year over last is that Kaep seemed to be doing a better job with his read's last season. What's changed over 365 days? Perhaps defenses are taking away options he would normally go through last season and forcing him to look elsewhere with great success. There's been suggestion about pressure, but I find that interesting because the statistics show Colin is actually very good at recognizing a blitz and taking action; rather his problem is when he's forced to read a secondary coverage scheme.

What is apparent still is the talent. If Colin can learn to read defenses quicker/better then he has the talent to be one of the very best. Of course, isn't that what separates ordinary from great QB's to begin with?

I'm also not seeing the fire out there he had last season. He's playing nervous out there....
[ Edited by bzborow1 on Oct 15, 2013 at 10:28 AM ]
Maybe you guys aren't fully understanding the type of college offense we run here so I'll provide video for you: Review the play at 26:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_LHrltRaudY#t=1605

Here you will see CK in shortgun with Gore in the backfield next to him on the left. Davis is split out wide left at the X...Boldin goes in motion from right to left and Baldwin is split out wide right at the Z. Vance McDonald is in the slot on the right side of the ROT. Upon snap, Baldwin sprints straight ahead from the Z, Boldin sprints ahead from the X and both McDonald and VD cross. Boldin immediately draws a CB "and" a S, McDonald draws the MLB (deeper) across the field with him and VD is free (underneath) thanks to Boldin drawing the S. CK hits VD instantly in under 3 seconds for 12 yards on 3rd and 5. Good thing b/c Watt crushed CK just as he released the ball.

BUT, at no point were ANY of the receiving options (Boldin, McDonald nor Baldwin) a true receiving option. There is no "progression reading" here. Gore stays in to block Watt. He is NOT an outlet either. This play is all-or-nothing. If everyone does their job, it's a first down. If it's not, it's a sack or CK is off and scrambling to which, Boldin, McDonald, Baldwin and VD then, all have to ad lib. And we are a terrible ad lib team.

So again, this is not b/c CK is poor at progression reading or "is locking onto receivers." It's b/c there ARE no progression reads built into the offense. It's a college, anti-WCO. This isn't Roman dumbing down the offense b/c CK isn't getting the offense or is struggling right now either. THIS IS OUR OFFENSE. It has nothing to do with the WR's and their "lack of separation." In fact, if this play doesn't work, it means the non-receivers (aka decoys) didn't draw the defenders they were supposed to...or the Texans secondary played it perfectly.

If you're a DC all you need to do is play press coverage, jam the WR's at the LOS and throw a monkey-wrench into the entire play. In fact, if you guessed correctly who to cover (in this case, VD), all you have to do is jam/cover him tight and Watt has a sack. This is exactly how Seattle plays us. And many, MANY of our formations and alignments can be deciphered pre-snap (and you will see the DB or LB call alignments accordingly, pre-snap esp. b/c we take so long to snap the ball).

If you really want to have fun, before each offensive snap, write down pre-snap if you think it will be a run or pass. Later you will get really good at not only identifying whether it's a run or pass but WHO the pass will go to.
[ Edited by NCommand on Oct 15, 2013 at 10:49 AM ]
Originally posted by SneakySniper:
Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
Also everyone is making too many excuses for Kap. Talking about how the receivers need to be open at the right time.

There are some pass plays that are quick reads and the quarterback is suppose to get the ball out immediately, but these plays are few and far between. Most plays have progressions that you go through if your first read isn't there.

Kap has not done a good job at all this year of going through his progressions. The great quarterbacks have field vision and go through their reads. You see this from the likes of Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Brees, and our own great Montana who was the King of going through his progressions.

Kap has displayed cone vision a lot of times this year. If his first or second read on one side of the field isn't there, he has been panicking and either firing passes at 100 mph into blanketed coverage or running out of the pocket. He needs to work on his pocket awareness, step up in the pocket and go through his reads.

Let's stop putting all the blame on the wide receivers. The wideouts haven't been the best this year, but there have been a lot of times where they have gotten separation and Kap just isn't seeing them or hitting them. Kap needs to do a better job of going through his reads and that's the reality of the situation.

The wide receivers havent been the best? They are the absolute worst in the league!

Boldin isnt a #1, hes to slow! He cant even get separation. Vernon is the only good "receiver" on the team. Is kap going to go through his progressions to kyle williams, the guy who gets pushed around like a rag doll?

Receivers make a difference! Just look at the Jags' horrible qbs get 300 yd games with justin blackmon

YYeah the wide receivers haven't been good, no one is disputing that. But it takes two to complete passes. Receivers have been getting more separation than people want to give them credit for. You can see it on the coaches film, hence why Baalke has gotten frustrated and said just throw the damn ball. The blame falls on both sides. Kap is not going through his progressions, making receivers look even worse. People need to stop assuming its all the wrs fault. Kap is playing with cone vision right now.
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Niners99:
People forget our QB is still a kid who just completed his first full season worth of starts. The whole "leading us to the SB" thing makes you forget, but hes still learning. Hes going to miss open receivers, rely on only his favorites, and hesitate in the pocket. Be patient, hes going to be one of the very best in the business someday soon.

He needs to work on trusting his WR to be where the ball is going. He just doesnt have the reps with Williams or Baldwin yet. He doesnt trust them to be there. He trusts Boldin and Davis, which is why he tries to force balls their way over taking a chance at a potentially open Jon Baldwin.

He also needs to step up in the pocket and throw (or run). Hes gotten into a bad habit of running backwards toward the sidelines and throwing off his back leg. Maybe his foot issue is causing this, but he'll be fine.

Good post.

Kevin Lynch, the Chronicle beat writer, made an observation on CK last week that I have found to be true. Lynch said he has been watching CK's helmet angle on passing plays. What he observed is that Kaepernick's first looks is almost always to Boldin, if he is not open, the next thing is that his helmet tilts down as he looks at the OL to check the protection. By this time, he rarely looks another direction. If he does, it is to Davis. Hardly ever does he go back to the opposite side of the field from Boldin. So, with Baldwin or Williams almost always opposite Boldin, those guys rarely get a look from Kaepernick.

We can write all this off to lack of experience but what concerns me is that Kaepernick does not appear to have made any improvement in going through his progressions this season. Of course, in many cases, he is only given two options in the play design but when he does have another option, he doesn't appear to go there. Roman needs to give him more opportunities with multiple wide outs so he can learn. We won't go far with this passing offense come playoff time. We also can't expect the Crabtree will be the magic wand either. It would be a miracle if he comes back to 100% of what he was last season. Achilles just take more time than that to heal and allow adequate muscle build up. Gonna have to see some progress from the QB. "Young and inexperienced" only last so long.


Kevin Lynch, LOL.

It's true that Kap sometimes doesn't go through all his progressions, but that's normal for someone this early in his career. The game slows down with more experience. But Kap has been proving to be more patient in the pocket recently, which is a sign of improvement, unlike what you're saying above. Also, many times when protection breaks down Kap runs in a direction that makes it difficult for him to find a WR who got open on the other side of the field. He'll learn to better move in the pocket; I don't see anything to panic about. He made some pretty impressive throws yesterday, and he'll continue to get better as the season progresses.

In any case, I don't understand why we needed a separate thread for this. We've been hashing it out ad nauseum in the Kaepernick thread.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Maybe you guys aren't fully understanding the type of college offense we run here so I'll provide video for you: Review the play at 26:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_LHrltRaudY#t=1605

Here you will see CK in shortgun with Gore in the backfield next to him on the left. Davis is split out wide left at the X...Boldin goes in motion from right to left and Baldwin is split out wide right at the Z. Vance McDonald is in the slot on the right side of the ROT. Upon snap, Baldwin sprints straight ahead from the Z, Boldin sprints ahead from the X and both McDonald and VD cross. Boldin immediately draws a CB "and" a S, McDonald draws the MLB (deeper) across the field with him and VD is free (underneath) thanks to Boldin drawing the S. CK hits VD instantly in under 3 seconds for 12 yards on 3rd and 5. Good thing b/c Watt crushed CK just as he released the ball.

BUT, at no point were ANY of the receiving options (Boldin, McDonald nor Baldwin) a true receiving option. There is no "progression reading" here. Gore stays in to block Watt. He is NOT an outlet either. This play is all-or-nothing. If everyone does their job, it's a first down. If it's not, it's a sack or CK is off and scrambling to which, Boldin, McDonald, Baldwin and VD then, all have to ad lib. And we are a terrible ad lib team.

So again, this is not b/c CK is poor at progression reading or "is locking onto receivers." It's b/c there ARE no progression reads built into the offense. It's a college, anti-WCO. This isn't Roman dumbing down the offense b/c CK isn't getting the offense or is struggling right now either. THIS IS OUR OFFENSE. It has nothing to do with the WR's and their "lack of separation." In fact, if this play doesn't work, it means the non-receivers (aka decoys) didn't draw the defenders they were supposed to...or the Texans secondary played it perfectly.

If you're a DC all you need to do is play press coverage, jam the WR's at the LOS and throw a monkey-wrench into the entire play. In fact, if you guessed correctly who to cover (in this case, VD), all you have to do is jam/cover him tight and Watt has a sack. This is exactly how Seattle plays us. And many, MANY of our formations and alignments can be deciphered pre-snap (and you will see the DB or LB calls alignments accordingly, pre-snap esp. b/c we take so long to snap the ball).

If you really want to have fun, before each offensive snap, write down pre-snap if you think it will be a run or pass. Later you will get really good at not only identifying whether it's a run or pass but WHO the pass will go to.

I hope that is mostly for the regular season.
Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
Also everyone is making too many excuses for Kap. Talking about how the receivers need to be open at the right time.

There are some pass plays that are quick reads and the quarterback is suppose to get the ball out immediately, but these plays are few and far between. Most plays have progressions that you go through if your first read isn't there.

Kap has not done a good job at all this year of going through his progressions. The great quarterbacks have field vision and go through their reads. You see this from the likes of Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Brees, and our own great Montana who was the King of going through his progressions.

Kap has displayed cone vision a lot of times this year. If his first or second read on one side of the field isn't there, he has been panicking and either firing passes at 100 mph into blanketed coverage or running out of the pocket. He needs to work on his pocket awareness, step up in the pocket and go through his reads.

Let's stop putting all the blame on the wide receivers. The wideouts haven't been the best this year, but there have been a lot of times where they have gotten separation and Kap just isn't seeing them or hitting them. Kap needs to do a better job of going through his reads and that's the reality of the situation.

I agree with all of this. However, we must also realize that he is still an inexperienced QB. Most new QB's are usually assigned half the field or a single read.

At the same time, he isn't playing poorly. He just needs to get off of Vernon and Anquan. I think the big game 1 by Anquan hurt Colin's development than it helped.

Our WR's have always been fine. 2 top level targets is ideal for any team. Our QB's have had issues with finding the 3rd target.
Originally posted by Afrikan:
I hope that is mostly for the regular season.

LOL...hasn't been for three years. It is our offense. Period. In fact, Alex Smith even brought a few of these plays to KC and added a slight variation to them but they are paying off in KC esp. on 3rd and longs.
Funny how all the TV announcers and experts are saying the WRs are not getting open but the internet couch potatoes seem to disagree.
  • Jcool
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Originally posted by susweel:
Funny how all the TV announcers and experts are saying the WRs are not getting open but the internet couch potatoes seem to disagree.

Bringing up TV announcers does NOT help make your point.
Originally posted by SneakySniper:
The wide receivers havent been the best? They are the absolute worst in the league!

Boldin isnt a #1, hes to slow! He cant even get separation. Vernon is the only good "receiver" on the team. Is kap going to go through his progressions to kyle williams, the guy who gets pushed around like a rag doll?

Receivers make a difference! Just look at the Jags' horrible qbs get 300 yd games with justin blackmon

Our receiving core leaves a lot to be desired but let us not trash Boldin because he is slow. Fact is he is very productive and one of the most productive all time. Now for the rest of them I concur. They need to step up
Originally posted by NinerG94:
Originally posted by 49ersHeroine:
Kali49er, great post. I agree with you all the way. Me and my friends have been talking about this. He's been open quite a bit since the rams game. Kap is a lock on one wide out QB. 1st it was Crabs, then Boldin now most logical VD. As much as Vernon is my favorite Niner. We're going to have to start getting the ball to Baldwin especially with VD and Boldin double/triple teamed. Baldwin 6'4 235 pounds fast with a 42 freakin inch vertical and he gets single coverage every snap. Dude Kaps needs to get it together!

I don't get the love for measurables around here. Baldwin gets zero separation. You don't just throw up a lob every time you get single coverage. Baldwin may have a 42" vertical but he has zero ball skills. NONE. You act like its comparable to throwing one up to Julio or Calvin. Those are the type of WR's you throw one up to in single coverage. Those guys you can count on to make a play. Baldwin has shown nothing. He hasn't even shown he can make uncontested catches and you want to start throwing up jump balls to him? Aside from his size and slight ability to get off press coverage he's worthless. As soon as Manningham is healthy, Baldwin is heading straight to the bench.

When have we thrown a ball to him that is even remotely catchable.

ANSWER: None.

He made a sensational catch two weeks ago on a ball that was thrown so far outside that he had no chance to get his feet down. The thing that many are overlooking is that he had 41 catches over the past two years on balls thrown his way by some of the worst QBs in recent history. So let's not go down that road that says he has no skills. He has plenty of skills. He just is being used as a decoy and blockers as NC noted previously. The problem is that our "wonderful, creative offensive coaches" still think they are at Stanford. This is the NFL which stands for Not For Long if you think you can run a college offense forever in this league. Just look at how quickly the league trumped the read/option.