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Wide receivers ARE getting open!

Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by zugschef:
There are
Originally posted by NCommand:
If a team such as Seattle (who CAN play this way) plays press and jams up the primary target (you're right; either D or Boldin) at the LOS that play is blown up and CK is off and running...like Carlos said (albeit less this year).
First off, Russell Wilson and his offense are based on broken plays and improvisation. Secondly, Seattle can do this to any team as long as they don't get penalized. They got penalized at Indianapolis and Sherman looked like a scrub getting beaten badly on every other play in the second half.

Sherman is a very slow corner with outstanding ball skills and great physique who relies on getting away with illegal contact and defensive holding on half of the plays. Boldin is exactly that as a wide receiver but eight years older. Once Davis had a sore hamstring you could just write the words GAME OVER into your notebook.

Against the Colts Davis was out and they concentrated on Boldin. Roman completely abandoned the running game in the second half and called the plays as if they were behind three scores when in fact they were behind six points in the fourth quarter.

People also believe all that crap about the "best oline in football". The Niners right now are fielding the most overrated oline in football. They are utterly inconsistent and kill almost every second drive by letting the defense blow up plays from the root up. Apart from Staley they were especially weak in pass protection against Seattle, the Colts and the Cardinals and erratic in run blocking. Most of that is on Goodwin giving up pressure over the middle or simply missing blocks. Last game they couldn't play a solid sequence until that 18-play drive in the fourth quarter.

When Kaepernick gets the right call and the oline holds up he does go through progressions. He sometimes throws inaccurate passes or throws way too hard when all that was needed is a ball with a lot of touch and gets too many balls batted away. And he loses too many fumbles. That's on him. But claiming that he is a one read quarterback is just flat out wrong. What's true is that right now the wide receivers apart from Boldin are so weak that Roman and Harbaugh need to scheme to get anybody open.

Against the Packers Kaepernick threw several passes to the second or third option. That's because in that game guys were getting open against Capers' stupid zone defense and Kaepernick had more than one guy who was supposed to get open. Since then every opponent played mostly man coverage against the 9ers' receivers which they obviously can't beat consistently enough. Now Roman has to send guys on special routes to get Davis or Boldin, the only guys with any playmaking ability apart from Gore, open. If they don't get open he throws it to Miller underneath. And if you wonder why Gore doesn't get balls in the passing game that's because he has to stay in blocking because the oline ain't getting it done alone by themselves.

Kaepernick didn't get any help from his teammates and OC against Seattle and Indie and since then with more support from Roman his play has improved again. But the playcalling is still a little weird at times, like when they went with an empty backfield twice in a row last game. Wide receiver is the team's weakest position and they go with five wide so the opponent knows they're going to pass.

This is a young quarterback who is playing tough defenses after torching a bad one. His OC is calling questionable plays and his supporting cast is weak. If James, Manningham and Crabtree had been healthy at the start of the season neither Moore nor Williams would have made the team. And Baldwin has gotten chances only because Patton went down. So we're talking about #5 receivers getting work at #2 and #3.

Good post but you again are focusing on surface level details here...the ISSUE isn't that CK is a one-read only QB. It's that THAT is how our offense is built to be...now under two QB's. Again, go back to any game, even the most recent game and watch every passing play...an analyst just confirmed it...a defensive player who just played us confirmed it...I confirmed it in this thread. CK is doing exactly what this offense is designed to do (not dimissing his misses, trust, mechanical issues, ball security, RZ panics, etc.). Carlos was referring to CK being a one-read QB not b/c he is a poor, novice QB but b/c THAT is our ofense. If you can expose and pre-determine who the annointed receiver is, you can jam/blow up the play and CK is off and scrambling/running...usually with his eyes downfield. This is how he is coached (and to slide and throw the ball away) within our offense. And guess what? Alex Smith was coached the same way. You will rarely see a progression read b/c those are not built in to this offense. If you see one it's rare and typically means it's an ad lib play turned successful or another receiver opened up (outside the target WR) in the area and he has to choose one. It is what it is and we can talk about all the surface level stuff until we're blue in the face but how much more evidence do we need?

Do you have any links of anyone specifically saying that our offense is a one read offense? I find that hard to believe and it's not what I'm seeing after rewatching the games on NFL Rewind coaches film....
  • thl408
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Originally posted by NCommand:
Hey brodie...

I apologize if I came off as "this offense sucks!" Obviously that is not the case on any level. We just beat the Cardinals and they fully were aware of our type of offense. Like our running game, you know it's coming but we are so talented, even if you stack 10 in the box, Gore could still break one for a TD once in a while. If Roman continues to "scheme" correctly, VD and Boldin will continue to be open on underneath crossing routes, wheel routes, quick sideline comebacks, corner EZ routes. They are just better and huge mismatches on 75% of the DB's they will face...often times even in press and jam-coverage. I'm very happy we are getting BACK to the Bo Schembechler basics b/c it suits our strength along the OL and RB positions and takes some heat off of CK. We are very creative and dynamic in the run game (minus those slow developing stretch runs that net us -5 yards every time - LOL).

Now, here is where I'm concerned: 1) The passing game (schemed/pre-determined) 2) First down production 3) RZ woes and 4) Opposition adjustments

1) The pre-determined, one-read, "schemed" passing plays (under 3 seconds) - as long as Roman can stay ahead of the DC's, attack weaknesses, etc. this can still work (as we saw with AZ). The issue I'm concerned about is the lack of built in outlets (i.e. RB's flaring out, TE's finding soft zones, the rest of the non-targeted WR's doing a better job of ad libbing and being on the same page as CK and check-outs pre-snap. I don't know if Roman's offense has ANY of this built in or if he needs another year to install that next level. Also, I'm seeing many times with 10 guys creeping up to the LOS, we run right up the gut into a wall. Where is the check-out to single coverage? The "hot reads?" Attacking the vacated blitzing area?
2) Horrendous...it's been an issue for 3 straight years. If this team doesn't get 4 yards on first down, we're in big trouble and play right into the DC's even more. Why we can't "scheme" better production from this down, I have yet to figure out. It's a simple formula...when we do, we win.
3) Pre-Roman, we were the best RZ in the game...3 years later, we're perpetually a poor team here. Compartmentalized game plan issues here?
4) Last year our offense was unknown to the NFL and we took full advantage of it under CK...it was more "dynamic" and "explosive." We'd run teams to death with Gore or we'd pass for 300 yards or we'd even beat a great playoff team by running our QB all over them. Teams had NO clue, like the Bears noted, how to even START to defend us. Now, the read-option has already been thrown out, CK is getting hit from the Q-formation and DC's are figuring out how to stuff us...jam the primary target and spy CK with a LB or DB.

Solutions? I'm looking to you guys who have watched more college football to review some old film and tell me if our offense is not fundamentally sound for the NFL today or if we have another layer or two that has yet to be installed (like the WCO that takes 3-4 years) that is apparent among NFL offenses in today's game...3,5,7-step drops, scripted plays, spread formations with multiple receiving options, multiple pre-snap options/audibles, hot reads, 3-layer route trees, short outlets built in, etc. B/c right now, Carlos is right...one-read and if thwarted, CK is off scrambling (running, looking to pass). It's that simple.

To your #1 point. Agree with all the bolded.

This type of passing offense will reduce turnovers provided the QB isn't errant with the accuracy of his throws because of the limited number of potential targets. Kap has never thrown the ball into double coverage, so it's not like there is absolutely no amount of post snap reading being done. He still has to tell himself when to not pull the trigger.

I think Harbs is walking a fine line here. On one side, you want your young QB to learn through error. Give him more than he can handle to see how he handles it. To watch him learn from his mistakes. On the other side, you have a Super Bowl to win, and you can't let young QB mistakes hurt those chances.

Is the passing offense the way it is because this is all Harbaugh/Roman knows? Is it the way it is because that's all Harbaugh wants Kap to handle at this point in his career?

I apologize if I came off as "this offense sucks!"
I'd like to echo that as well. Truth is, the 49er running game and passing game compliment each other well. Power runs to get those safties to cheat up, then strike downfield. The two go with one another. It's been done in the NFL and it works.

To the underlined above. I feel there does need to be another 'layer' to the offense that needs to be installed, and it's the short passing game. Throwing long balls is great, but what if it's windy? What if your deep threat is injured (IND game)? Is there a high percentage, short passing game the team can fall back to? The season is not halfway done, so the offense we see now will not be the same offense in week 16.
[ Edited by thl408 on Oct 17, 2013 at 1:30 PM ]
Originally posted by NinerG94:
Wilson and Kaepernicks stats on the season are identical except for the rushing attempts and yards which Wilson has 50 rushing attempts for 294 yards through 6 games. Kaepernick has 31 attempts for 172 yards.

I'm not disputing Kaeps one read tendency although I believe that's overblown. There have been multiple games where you can visibly see Kaep going through multiple progressions. I'm disputing one read and run claim. He barely runs and yet I see Wilson running all the time, and sometimes after what looks like one read as well. I really don't understand his scouting report.

1. I'm not saying kap is a one read quarterback but the way our passing offense is set up kap is not making multiple reads. He makes 2 reads and either tries to force the ball in to one of them or runs until run of them gets open.

2. This is worrisome to me. It seems to me like harbaugh has defanged kap a little. Now I know Kap is dealing with a foot injury and we don't know how serious it is, but I'm pretty sure harbaugh told Kap to not run as much as he did last season in fear of him getting injured since without Kap our season is lost. However, I think this really got into Kaps head and you sort of incidentally took away a major factor of what made him so dangerous.

3. Lastly, now that we have a quarterback that can gunsling it with the best of them, I am hoping our passing scheme changes a little bit to accomadate that. I really can't get with the excuse that our receivers are horrible. Especially since they DO get open without ever being an option to throw to and since elite quaterbacks in the NFL still win games with a worse receiver corps than we have. I remember two years ago greenbay had injuries and an absolutely depleted receiver corps yet still made it to the playoffs. They probably would have made it to the superbowl too instead of the giants if they had receivers that could catch in their playoff game against the giants. So their lack of wide receivers did end up costing them. My point is though that Aaron rodgers managed to get them that far and almost beat the giants with a horrendous receiver corps.
Originally posted by thl408:
To your #1 point. Agree with all the bolded.

This type of passing offense will reduce turnovers provided the QB isn't errant with the accuracy of his throws because of the limited number of potential targets. Kap has never thrown the ball into double coverage, so it's not like there is absolutely no amount of post snap reading being done. He still has to tell himself when to not pull the trigger.

I think Harbs is walking a fine line here. On one side, you want your young QB to learn through error. Give him more than he can handle to see how he handles it. To watch him learn from his mistakes. On the other side, you have a Super Bowl to win, and you can't let young QB mistakes hurt those chances.

Is the passing offense the way it is because this is all Harbaugh/Roman knows? Is it the way it is because that's all Harbaugh wants Kap to handle at this point in his career?

I apologize if I came off as "this offense sucks!"
I'd like to echo that as well. Truth is, the 49er running game and passing game compliment each other well. Power runs to get those safties to cheat up, then strike downfield. The two go with one another. It's been done in the NFL and it works.

To the underlined above. I feel there does need to be another 'layer' to the offense that needs to be installed, and it's the short passing game. Throwing long balls is great, but what if it's windy? What if your deep threat is injured (IND game)? Is there a high percentage, short passing game the team can fall back to? The season is not halfway done, so the offense we see now will not be the same offense in week 16.

The bold is where I question, which came first, the chicken or the egg? And this is where I need an expert in here to review the old Standford offense and help me/us out here. Are there more layers to this offense that hasn't been installed by year 2.5 or is this it...is this is the entire structure of the offensive playbook and philosophy? My best "guess" is that, what I have seen so far under two different QB's, is that this is it. This is our offense (hoping to be wrong). I lean towards feeling like this is about as far as we can go in the NFL today with this type of offense. It's all-or-nothing. The good defenses will exploit it and we'll take advantage of those who can't...either way, we should have a winning record throughout but now that the DC's have caught up to us, will it be enough to get back to the Superbowl...and win it?
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Good post but you again are focusing on surface level details here...the ISSUE isn't that CK is a one-read only QB. It's that THAT is how our offense is built to be...now under two QB's. Again, go back to any game, even the most recent game and watch every passing play...an analyst just confirmed it...a defensive player who just played us confirmed it...I confirmed it in this thread. CK is doing exactly what this offense is designed to do (not dimissing his misses, trust, mechanical issues, ball security, RZ panics, etc.). Carlos was referring to CK being a one-read QB not b/c he is a poor, novice QB but b/c THAT is our ofense. If you can expose and pre-determine who the annointed receiver is, you can jam/blow up the play and CK is off and scrambling/running...usually with his eyes downfield. This is how he is coached (and to slide and throw the ball away) within our offense. And guess what? Alex Smith was coached the same way. You will rarely see a progression read b/c those are not built in to this offense. If you see one it's rare and typically means it's an ad lib play turned successful or another receiver opened up (outside the target WR) in the area and he has to choose one. It is what it is and we can talk about all the surface level stuff until we're blue in the face but how much more evidence do we need?


OK. Our scheme sucks. Now what? -- NC have you changed you're tune on this in the last few days? I posted problems with our scheme sunday and you were saying how every thing was hunky dory -- look at all the short passes/checkdowns in the Arizona game, we're going legit with small yard/medium yard playcalling, and so on. Now it sounds like you characterized our college hack Bo schembecler offense as a run heavy blocking extravaganza with some deep balls thrown in.

Which way are you going with this?

How do we get a pro offense running that will keep the DC's honest and not able to blow up our strategy by keying on a couple of players?

thoughts?

Hey brodie...

I apologize if I came off as "this offense sucks!" Obviously that is not the case on any level. We just beat the Cardinals and they fully were aware of our type of offense. Like our running game, you know it's coming but we are so talented, even if you stack 10 in the box, Gore could still break one for a TD once in a while. If Roman continues to "scheme" correctly, VD and Boldin will continue to be open on underneath crossing routes, wheel routes, quick sideline comebacks, corner EZ routes. They are just better and huge mismatches on 75% of the DB's they will face...often times even in press and jam-coverage. I'm very happy we are getting BACK to the Bo Schembechler basics b/c it suits our strength along the OL and RB positions and takes some heat off of CK. We are very creative and dynamic in the run game (minus those slow developing stretch runs that net us -5 yards every time - LOL).

Now, here is where I'm concerned: 1) The passing game (schemed/pre-determined) 2) First down production 3) RZ woes and 4) Opposition adjustments

1) The pre-determined, one-read, "schemed" passing plays (under 3 seconds) - as long as Roman can stay ahead of the DC's, attack weaknesses, etc. this can still work (as we saw with AZ). The issue I'm concerned about is the lack of built in outlets (i.e. RB's flaring out, TE's finding soft zones, the rest of the non-targeted WR's doing a better job of ad libbing and being on the same page as CK and check-outs pre-snap. I don't know if Roman's offense has ANY of this built in or if he needs another year+ to install that next level. Also, I'm seeing many times with 10 guys creeping up to the LOS, we run right up the gut into a wall. Where is the check-out to single coverage? The "hot reads?" Attacking the vacated blitzing area?
2) Horrendous...it's been an issue for 3 straight years. If this team doesn't get 4+ yards on first down, we're in big trouble and play right into the DC's even more. Why we can't "scheme" better production from this down, I have yet to figure out. It's a simple formula...when we do, we win.
3) Pre-Roman, we were the best RZ in the game...3 years later, we're perpetually a poor team here. Compartmentalized game plan issues here?
4) Last year our offense was unknown to the NFL and we took full advantage of it under CK...it was more "dynamic" and "explosive." We'd run teams to death with Gore or we'd pass for 300+ yards or we'd even beat a great playoff team by running our QB all over them. Teams had NO clue, like the Bears noted, how to even START to defend us. Now, the read-option has already been thrown out, CK is getting hit from the Q-formation and DC's are figuring out how to stuff us...jam the primary target and spy CK with a LB or DB.

Solutions? I'm looking to you guys who have watched more college football to review some old film and tell me if our offense is not fundamentally sound for the NFL today or if we have another layer or two that has yet to be installed (like the WCO that takes 3-4 years) that is apparent among NFL offenses in today's game...3,5,7-step drops, scripted plays, spread formations with multiple receiving options, multiple pre-snap options/audibles, hot reads, 3-layer route trees, short outlets built in, etc. B/c right now, Carlos is right...one-read and if thwarted, CK is off scrambling (running, looking to pass). It's that simple.

This is what I want to know. Too many times I am seeing the defense stacked against the run and ready to crash down on the running back, yet we chose to run gore up the middle with less blockers than the opposing D sends rushing. We should be taking advantage of these plays where you can clearly see the defense being over aggressive and over committing against a run.
Originally posted by aTx49er:
Do you have any links of anyone specifically saying that our offense is a one read offense? I find that hard to believe and it's not what I'm seeing after rewatching the games on NFL Rewind coaches film....

Yup: http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/niners/175265-wide-receivers-getting-open/page13/ post #187.

Of the 21 pass plays in this link, can you pinpoint a single play that wasn't a pre-determined, one-read pass? http://www.49ersspin.com/2013/10/week-6-49ers-vs-cardinals-full-game.html. You have coaches film so that would even easier for you to see!

Also, to be fair, it's probably not accurate to say that CK himself is a "one-read QB" b/c that implies that he is brainless. What we ARE saying is that HaRoman scheme passing plays so that CK only HAS to stay with his one read...and I even question whether or not there are any second-read options esp. since almost all passes are made under 3 seconds. What I challenge fans to do is not watch the annointed receiver on these passing plays but what to watch what the OTHER guys are doing - clearing out space, occupying two defenders, blocking down field with the ball in the air, streak-routes with no intent for a reception, etc. Many of the times, once these guys have "done their jobs" they are slowly jogging along, have the backs of their heads to the QB, checked-out, etc. Why? B/c in their minds, the play is over...they did their part!
[ Edited by NCommand on Oct 17, 2013 at 2:12 PM ]
Originally posted by Kali49er:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Good post but you again are focusing on surface level details here...the ISSUE isn't that CK is a one-read only QB. It's that THAT is how our offense is built to be...now under two QB's. Again, go back to any game, even the most recent game and watch every passing play...an analyst just confirmed it...a defensive player who just played us confirmed it...I confirmed it in this thread. CK is doing exactly what this offense is designed to do (not dimissing his misses, trust, mechanical issues, ball security, RZ panics, etc.). Carlos was referring to CK being a one-read QB not b/c he is a poor, novice QB but b/c THAT is our ofense. If you can expose and pre-determine who the annointed receiver is, you can jam/blow up the play and CK is off and scrambling/running...usually with his eyes downfield. This is how he is coached (and to slide and throw the ball away) within our offense. And guess what? Alex Smith was coached the same way. You will rarely see a progression read b/c those are not built in to this offense. If you see one it's rare and typically means it's an ad lib play turned successful or another receiver opened up (outside the target WR) in the area and he has to choose one. It is what it is and we can talk about all the surface level stuff until we're blue in the face but how much more evidence do we need?


OK. Our scheme sucks. Now what? -- NC have you changed you're tune on this in the last few days? I posted problems with our scheme sunday and you were saying how every thing was hunky dory -- look at all the short passes/checkdowns in the Arizona game, we're going legit with small yard/medium yard playcalling, and so on. Now it sounds like you characterized our college hack Bo schembecler offense as a run heavy blocking extravaganza with some deep balls thrown in.

Which way are you going with this?

How do we get a pro offense running that will keep the DC's honest and not able to blow up our strategy by keying on a couple of players?

thoughts?

Hey brodie...

I apologize if I came off as "this offense sucks!" Obviously that is not the case on any level. We just beat the Cardinals and they fully were aware of our type of offense. Like our running game, you know it's coming but we are so talented, even if you stack 10 in the box, Gore could still break one for a TD once in a while. If Roman continues to "scheme" correctly, VD and Boldin will continue to be open on underneath crossing routes, wheel routes, quick sideline comebacks, corner EZ routes. They are just better and huge mismatches on 75% of the DB's they will face...often times even in press and jam-coverage. I'm very happy we are getting BACK to the Bo Schembechler basics b/c it suits our strength along the OL and RB positions and takes some heat off of CK. We are very creative and dynamic in the run game (minus those slow developing stretch runs that net us -5 yards every time - LOL).

Now, here is where I'm concerned: 1) The passing game (schemed/pre-determined) 2) First down production 3) RZ woes and 4) Opposition adjustments

1) The pre-determined, one-read, "schemed" passing plays (under 3 seconds) - as long as Roman can stay ahead of the DC's, attack weaknesses, etc. this can still work (as we saw with AZ). The issue I'm concerned about is the lack of built in outlets (i.e. RB's flaring out, TE's finding soft zones, the rest of the non-targeted WR's doing a better job of ad libbing and being on the same page as CK and check-outs pre-snap. I don't know if Roman's offense has ANY of this built in or if he needs another year+ to install that next level. Also, I'm seeing many times with 10 guys creeping up to the LOS, we run right up the gut into a wall. Where is the check-out to single coverage? The "hot reads?" Attacking the vacated blitzing area?
2) Horrendous...it's been an issue for 3 straight years. If this team doesn't get 4+ yards on first down, we're in big trouble and play right into the DC's even more. Why we can't "scheme" better production from this down, I have yet to figure out. It's a simple formula...when we do, we win.
3) Pre-Roman, we were the best RZ in the game...3 years later, we're perpetually a poor team here. Compartmentalized game plan issues here?
4) Last year our offense was unknown to the NFL and we took full advantage of it under CK...it was more "dynamic" and "explosive." We'd run teams to death with Gore or we'd pass for 300+ yards or we'd even beat a great playoff team by running our QB all over them. Teams had NO clue, like the Bears noted, how to even START to defend us. Now, the read-option has already been thrown out, CK is getting hit from the Q-formation and DC's are figuring out how to stuff us...jam the primary target and spy CK with a LB or DB.

Solutions? I'm looking to you guys who have watched more college football to review some old film and tell me if our offense is not fundamentally sound for the NFL today or if we have another layer or two that has yet to be installed (like the WCO that takes 3-4 years) that is apparent among NFL offenses in today's game...3,5,7-step drops, scripted plays, spread formations with multiple receiving options, multiple pre-snap options/audibles, hot reads, 3-layer route trees, short outlets built in, etc. B/c right now, Carlos is right...one-read and if thwarted, CK is off scrambling (running, looking to pass). It's that simple.

This is what I want to know. Too many times I am seeing the defense stacked against the run and ready to crash down on the running back, yet we chose to run gore up the middle with less blockers than the opposing D sends rushing. We should be taking advantage of these plays where you can clearly see the defense being over aggressive and over committing against a run.

This is a big one and more evidence these plays are pre-determined (and probably why we take so many time outs as well). This was a big problem under Alex as well. Remember? Defenses would stack the box in between the DT's, creep up to the LOS and run-blitz stuffing Gore if it's a run or blasting Alex if it was a pass. And many felt the OL sucked or that Alex needed to get rid of the ball quicker, etc. Blah blah blah. But at least under Alex, they have a roll and kill-option. I haven't been looking for it but has anyone noticed with CK as of late, has this option been removed from him?
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Kali49er:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Good post but you again are focusing on surface level details here...the ISSUE isn't that CK is a one-read only QB. It's that THAT is how our offense is built to be...now under two QB's. Again, go back to any game, even the most recent game and watch every passing play...an analyst just confirmed it...a defensive player who just played us confirmed it...I confirmed it in this thread. CK is doing exactly what this offense is designed to do (not dimissing his misses, trust, mechanical issues, ball security, RZ panics, etc.). Carlos was referring to CK being a one-read QB not b/c he is a poor, novice QB but b/c THAT is our ofense. If you can expose and pre-determine who the annointed receiver is, you can jam/blow up the play and CK is off and scrambling/running...usually with his eyes downfield. This is how he is coached (and to slide and throw the ball away) within our offense. And guess what? Alex Smith was coached the same way. You will rarely see a progression read b/c those are not built in to this offense. If you see one it's rare and typically means it's an ad lib play turned successful or another receiver opened up (outside the target WR) in the area and he has to choose one. It is what it is and we can talk about all the surface level stuff until we're blue in the face but how much more evidence do we need?


OK. Our scheme sucks. Now what? -- NC have you changed you're tune on this in the last few days? I posted problems with our scheme sunday and you were saying how every thing was hunky dory -- look at all the short passes/checkdowns in the Arizona game, we're going legit with small yard/medium yard playcalling, and so on. Now it sounds like you characterized our college hack Bo schembecler offense as a run heavy blocking extravaganza with some deep balls thrown in.

Which way are you going with this?

How do we get a pro offense running that will keep the DC's honest and not able to blow up our strategy by keying on a couple of players?

thoughts?

Hey brodie...

I apologize if I came off as "this offense sucks!" Obviously that is not the case on any level. We just beat the Cardinals and they fully were aware of our type of offense. Like our running game, you know it's coming but we are so talented, even if you stack 10 in the box, Gore could still break one for a TD once in a while. If Roman continues to "scheme" correctly, VD and Boldin will continue to be open on underneath crossing routes, wheel routes, quick sideline comebacks, corner EZ routes. They are just better and huge mismatches on 75% of the DB's they will face...often times even in press and jam-coverage. I'm very happy we are getting BACK to the Bo Schembechler basics b/c it suits our strength along the OL and RB positions and takes some heat off of CK. We are very creative and dynamic in the run game (minus those slow developing stretch runs that net us -5 yards every time - LOL).

Now, here is where I'm concerned: 1) The passing game (schemed/pre-determined) 2) First down production 3) RZ woes and 4) Opposition adjustments

1) The pre-determined, one-read, "schemed" passing plays (under 3 seconds) - as long as Roman can stay ahead of the DC's, attack weaknesses, etc. this can still work (as we saw with AZ). The issue I'm concerned about is the lack of built in outlets (i.e. RB's flaring out, TE's finding soft zones, the rest of the non-targeted WR's doing a better job of ad libbing and being on the same page as CK and check-outs pre-snap. I don't know if Roman's offense has ANY of this built in or if he needs another year+ to install that next level. Also, I'm seeing many times with 10 guys creeping up to the LOS, we run right up the gut into a wall. Where is the check-out to single coverage? The "hot reads?" Attacking the vacated blitzing area?
2) Horrendous...it's been an issue for 3 straight years. If this team doesn't get 4+ yards on first down, we're in big trouble and play right into the DC's even more. Why we can't "scheme" better production from this down, I have yet to figure out. It's a simple formula...when we do, we win.
3) Pre-Roman, we were the best RZ in the game...3 years later, we're perpetually a poor team here. Compartmentalized game plan issues here?
4) Last year our offense was unknown to the NFL and we took full advantage of it under CK...it was more "dynamic" and "explosive." We'd run teams to death with Gore or we'd pass for 300+ yards or we'd even beat a great playoff team by running our QB all over them. Teams had NO clue, like the Bears noted, how to even START to defend us. Now, the read-option has already been thrown out, CK is getting hit from the Q-formation and DC's are figuring out how to stuff us...jam the primary target and spy CK with a LB or DB.

Solutions? I'm looking to you guys who have watched more college football to review some old film and tell me if our offense is not fundamentally sound for the NFL today or if we have another layer or two that has yet to be installed (like the WCO that takes 3-4 years) that is apparent among NFL offenses in today's game...3,5,7-step drops, scripted plays, spread formations with multiple receiving options, multiple pre-snap options/audibles, hot reads, 3-layer route trees, short outlets built in, etc. B/c right now, Carlos is right...one-read and if thwarted, CK is off scrambling (running, looking to pass). It's that simple.

This is what I want to know. Too many times I am seeing the defense stacked against the run and ready to crash down on the running back, yet we chose to run gore up the middle with less blockers than the opposing D sends rushing. We should be taking advantage of these plays where you can clearly see the defense being over aggressive and over committing against a run.

This is a big one and more evidence these plays are pre-determined (and probably why we take so many time outs as well). This was a big problem under Alex as well. Remember? Defenses would stack the box in between the DT's, creep up to the LOS and run-blitz stuffing Gore if it's a run or blasting Alex if it was a pass. And many felt the OL sucked or that Alex needed to get rid of the ball quicker, etc. Blah blah blah. But at least under Alex, they have a roll and kill-option. I haven't been looking for it but has anyone noticed with CK as of late, has this option been removed from him?

No, he just uses different terms to change the play at the line of scrimmage.
Kap has a simplified offense, if you can believe it. There have been plays where his options are limited to one side of the field. Now, that was early on when he was struggling a little bit. The passing game has opened up a little since then. The rest of the offense has been doing some pretty good things, since Gore's chat, so we can expect more of an open attack as we go forward.
Originally posted by real9erfan:
No, he just uses different terms to change the play at the line of scrimmage.

OK great, thank you! I hadn't paid attention to that aspect. Now, if the two plays (assumption here) are still being called and one is a pass and the other a run, then THAT is on CK and there are no excuses, esp. when everyone in the stands can tell they are bringing the house. Why run into a brick wall?
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by aTx49er:
Do you have any links of anyone specifically saying that our offense is a one read offense? I find that hard to believe and it's not what I'm seeing after rewatching the games on NFL Rewind coaches film....

Yup: http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/niners/175265-wide-receivers-getting-open/page13/ post #187.

Of the 21 pass plays in this link, can you pinpoint a single play that wasn't a pre-determined, one-read pass? http://www.49ersspin.com/2013/10/week-6-49ers-vs-cardinals-full-game.html. You have coaches film so that would even easier for you to see!

Also, to be fair, it's probably not accurate to say that CK himself is a "one-read QB" b/c that implies that he is brainless. What we ARE saying is that HaRoman scheme passing plays so that CK only HAS to stay with his one read...and I even question whether or not there are any second-read options esp. since almost all passes are made under 3 seconds. What I challenge fans to do is not watch the annointed receiver on these passing plays but what to watch what the OTHER guys are doing - clearing out space, occupying two defenders, blocking down field with the ball in the air, streak-routes with no intent for a reception, etc. Many of the times, once these guys have "done their jobs" they are slowly jogging along, have the backs of their heads to the QB, checked-out, etc. Why? B/c in their minds, the play is over...they did their part!

Ok I get what your saying but I still don't think it's schemed into the offense. True every passing play has a primary receiver but that doesn't mean the QB has to stay with that receiver. Why even scan the pre-snap defensive lineup for mismatches if your throw is predetermined. The fact that Kap 90%(or whatever) of the time throws to his primary receiver just shows that he's still young and learning the game.

I've seen many plays where Kap was looking at bolding to the right/or left and another receiver on the other side of the field get open and looks back at the QB waiting for the pass that never comes. Same with the RBs coming out of the backfield. Looking back ready to catch a pass. Why would they do this if not because they know they are a receiving option on the play?
Originally posted by aTx49er:
Ok I get what your saying but I still don't think it's schemed into the offense. True every passing play has a primary receiver but that doesn't mean the QB has to stay with that receiver. Why even scan the pre-snap defensive lineup for mismatches if your throw is predetermined. The fact that Kap 90%(or whatever) of the time throws to his primary receiver just shows that he's still young and learning the game.

I've seen many plays where Kap was looking at bolding to the right/or left and another receiver on the other side of the field get open and looks back at the QB waiting for the pass that never comes. Same with the RBs coming out of the backfield. Looking back ready to catch a pass. Why would they do this if not because they know they are a receiving option on the play?

I've tried pointing this out. It feels like a lost cause.

I know we've all seen KW and Baldwin wide open at point this season. The idea that Kaep is supposed to ignore wide open WR's because he has a main read is just ridiculous. If that is the case then you can't blame the WR's for not getting open because the ball was never coming their way in the first place.

I know Kaep is smart enough to recognize the man coverage Baldwin and KW get. It's so frustrating. He should be utilizing these match ups.

If you give Manning or Brady man he's going to call a quick slant and hit that receivers every time. They let their guy make a play. Brady just doesn't give up either because he has seen more drops then we could possibly imagine yet he still keeps feeding Dodson and Thompkins. He knows how to get his guys going.

Credit to Kaep he actually realized Matheu was going to blitz and the safety was going to drop down on KW. He called a quick slant and KW got the 7 yards for a 3rd completion that continued are 9 min drive.

If you watch Kaeps biggest run of the Cards game you'll notice Baldwin is partially open on a shallow crossing route. He's being loosely trailed by a 5'11 CB and he's 6'4. You let your guy make a play here. Luckily Boone opened up the sweetest little gap for Kaep to run through and Kaep did what he does best. If that gap wasn't their I doubt he would've hit Baldwin because he was looking at Boldin who swallowed in zone coverage.

Baldwin and KW are out there for a reason. They're not just cogs to get Boldin and Davis open. I realize they're not always getting open but I think it's also important to accept Kaep is missing reads.

Maybe it's just going to take some time for him to get used to the offense. Things started out pretty shaky. He looked a little more encouraging against the Cards. At least he hit everyone at least once.
[ Edited by eonblue on Oct 17, 2013 at 9:25 PM ]
Originally posted by aTx49er:
Ok I get what your saying but I still don't think it's schemed into the offense. True every passing play has a primary receiver but that doesn't mean the QB has to stay with that receiver. Why even scan the pre-snap defensive lineup for mismatches if your throw is predetermined. The fact that Kap 90%(or whatever) of the time throws to his primary receiver just shows that he's still young and learning the game.

I've seen many plays where Kap was looking at bolding to the right/or left and another receiver on the other side of the field get open and looks back at the QB waiting for the pass that never comes. Same with the RBs coming out of the backfield. Looking back ready to catch a pass. Why would they do this if not because they know they are a receiving option on the play?

Even Kap admitted that he needs to start trusting his receivers more. That tells me that the issue is the lack of chemistry/trust between Kap and receivers not named VD and Boldin more than anything. I highly doubt Roman and the QB guru himself, Harbs, is encouraging Kap to miss reads and strictly focus on one or two targets. It's a bad habit for any QB to get into. I'm sure with more experience, maturity, and polishing, Kap will eventually grow out of this and begin to spread the ball around a bit more, feed his other receivers, and let them make plays.
Originally posted by aTx49er:
Do you have any links of anyone specifically saying that our offense is a one read offense? I find that hard to believe and it's not what I'm seeing after rewatching the games on NFL Rewind coaches film....


There you go :

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-total-access/0ap2000000264646/Dansby-Cardinals-ready-for-this-challenge

This is from a Karlos Dansby interview on Total Access talking about Cards' preparation for the Seattle game. When asked by Willie McGinest what is the difference between preparing for the 9ers vs the Seahawks, he said Kap is one-read and then run right away while Wilson is a throw-first QB. That suggests to me this is how teams are scouting Kap as an "one-read and run" QB.
Originally posted by NCommand:
It is what it is and we can talk about all the surface level stuff until we're blue in the face but how much more evidence do we need?
What I'm trying to say is that the Niners' Playbook isn't full of one-read plays, but right now they need to call the plays that are, because nobody will make the same mistake as the Packers did in week one.

Until the Niners can prove that they can beat man-coverage consistently defenses will play man-coverage. Since the receivers just can't do that Roman calls a lot of plays in which most routes, if not all but one route, are just decoys in order to get one guy open. It's as simple as that.

Teams basically take away the middle of the field and concentrate on Boldin outside. As long as the pass rush is consistent this works perfectly since Davis can't get open downfield fast enough. If Kaepernick has enough time Davis does get open and that's when the big plays happen. Without a third receiving threat the Niners will keep on being inconsistent on offense against competent defenses. Or maybe the oline finally starts playing like the best unit in football, because on the plays they're looking like that Kaepernick delivers almost every time.

***
And btw, Gore is a much better pass blocker than Miller. Also, Gore is covered on every single play he is not back blocking. Defenses know that he is one of only three guys who can do damage. Miller on the other hand is often left alone. That's why the checkdown goes to him.
[ Edited by zugschef on Oct 18, 2013 at 4:15 AM ]