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Wide receivers ARE getting open!

  • LVJay
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 5,084
Growing pains....
I can see this is becoming quite a huge discussion. Whether this "one-read" issue is a product of Kap or the playcall, all I know is this when I watched the latest episode of Total Access.

Carlos Dansby was being interviewed on the show about tomorrow's Thursday Night Football match-up against Seattle. When asked how differently the Cards will have to get prepared for the Seahawks versus the 9ers, what he said was this, he said Kap and Wilson are totally different. He said Kap is an "one-read" then run QB whereas Wilson is a throw-first QB.

This tells me one thing, the way teams are scouting Kap is "one-read and run". That to me is rather worrying. For one, it is true disregard whether it is intentional or otherwise. But, it also means it is not incredibly difficult to stop our passing game once the key go-to receivers are shut down. If you look at what has been going on for the past 6 weeks, we have learnt that we really only have 2 main receiver options in Anquan and Vernon.

If we are not spreading the ball amongst different receivers which we are not, it will probably mean at least in theory the success of our passing game is reliant on having stud WRs who can win their one-on-ones. In other words, our supporting cast WRs are pretty much non-factors, they can't help us even if they wanted to cos they have not been factored into the play designs.

If that is the way we are going to continue to scheme our passing game, it seems to me it is almost imperative we will need more "stud WRs" whereby G Ro and Harbaugh will have enough trust in the person to run a designed play on the guy if indeed progression is not built into our pass playcalls. That is the only way we can have more than 2 WR options to ease the predictability factor.

Personally, I find it hard to believe there are no secondary WR options on a given play. But, I haven't watched all the film, so I am not going to argue it.

Whatever it is, it needs to be sorted and sorted out fast.
Originally posted by Rascal:
I can see this is becoming quite a huge discussion. Whether this "one-read" issue is a product of Kap or the playcall, all I know is this when I watched the latest episode of Total Access.

Carlos Dansby was being interviewed on the show about tomorrow's Thursday Night Football match-up against Seattle. When asked how differently the Cards will have to get prepared for the Seahawks versus the 9ers, what he said was this, he said Kap and Wilson are totally different. He said Kap is an "one-read" then run QB whereas Wilson is a throw-first QB.

This tells me one thing, the way teams are scouting Kap is "one-read and run". That to me is rather worrying. For one, it is true disregard whether it is intentional or otherwise. But, it also means it is not incredibly difficult to stop our passing game once the key go-to receivers are shut down. If you look at what has been going on for the past 6 weeks, we have learnt that we really only have 2 main receiver options in Anquan and Vernon.

If we are not spreading the ball amongst different receivers which we are not, it will probably mean at least in theory the success of our passing game is reliant on having stud WRs who can win their one-on-ones. In other words, our supporting cast WRs are pretty much non-factors, they can't help us even if they wanted to cos they have not been factored into the play designs.

If that is the way we are going to continue to scheme our passing game, it seems to me it is almost imperative we will need more "stud WRs" whereby G Ro and Harbaugh will have enough trust in the person to run a designed play on the guy if indeed progression is not built into our pass playcalls. That is the only way we can have more than 2 WR options to ease the predictability factor.

Personally, I find it hard to believe there are no secondary WR options on a given play. But, I haven't watched all the film, so I am not going to argue it.

Whatever it is, it needs to be sorted and sorted out fast.

I don't think we need more "stud" receivers, though I believe it would help. I think Kaep needs to grow into a true QB. Last year was the same, always Crabtree. Kaep needs to learn to spread it around. Watch the Packers without Cobb and Jones. While Rodgers' numbers will decline some, not to the point Kaep's are at. Brady isn't putting up his usual numbers, but still throwing to his nobody's. They just drop the ball. Kaep needs to be more aggressive.
[ Edited by gunslinger8 on Oct 16, 2013 at 11:29 PM ]
Originally posted by gunslinger8:
I don't think we need more "stud" receivers, though I believe it would help. I think Kaep needs to grow into a true QB. Last year was the same, always Crabtree. Kaep needs to learn to spread it around. Watch the Packers without Cobb and Jones. While Rodgers' numbers will decline some, not to the point Kaep's are at. Brady isn't putting up his usual numbers, but still throwing to his nobody's. They just drop the ball. Kaep needs to be more aggressive.


Yep, I agree. Personally, I don't think is a simple case of "either or" with this "one-read" issue, in all likelihood it is probably a combination of both Kap as well as the play designs/calls.

You are right, last season was Crabtree after Crabtree. I also don't know whether it really indeed is an issue of the playcalls, if G Ro doesn't build into the play with secondary reads, then Kap will never learn. Is a chicken and egg situation.

I don't disagree with the Brady example, but Kap is not Brady, at least not yet. This to me then becomes a bit of a dilemma. In other words, at least in the context of this season, can we afford to wait for Kap to develop into a true QB or just make a trade to load up with another "stud WR" to help in the meantime ? No doubt, Kap will need to develop, but naturally it will take time. I would rater take the 2-prong approach, sign another "stud WR" and yet run plays that include progression reads to develop Kap at the same time.
Originally posted by Rascal:
I can see this is becoming quite a huge discussion. Whether this "one-read" issue is a product of Kap or the playcall, all I know is this when I watched the latest episode of Total Access.

Carlos Dansby was being interviewed on the show about tomorrow's Thursday Night Football match-up against Seattle. When asked how differently the Cards will have to get prepared for the Seahawks versus the 9ers, what he said was this, he said Kap and Wilson are totally different. He said Kap is an "one-read" then run QB whereas Wilson is a throw-first QB.

This tells me one thing, the way teams are scouting Kap is "one-read and run". That to me is rather worrying. For one, it is true disregard whether it is intentional or otherwise. But, it also means it is not incredibly difficult to stop our passing game once the key go-to receivers are shut down. If you look at what has been going on for the past 6 weeks, we have learnt that we really only have 2 main receiver options in Anquan and Vernon.

If we are not spreading the ball amongst different receivers which we are not, it will probably mean at least in theory the success of our passing game is reliant on having stud WRs who can win their one-on-ones. In other words, our supporting cast WRs are pretty much non-factors, they can't help us even if they wanted to cos they have not been factored into the play designs.

If that is the way we are going to continue to scheme our passing game, it seems to me it is almost imperative we will need more "stud WRs" whereby G Ro and Harbaugh will have enough trust in the person to run a designed play on the guy if indeed progression is not built into our pass playcalls. That is the only way we can have more than 2 WR options to ease the predictability factor.

Personally, I find it hard to believe there are no secondary WR options on a given play. But, I haven't watched all the film, so I am not going to argue it.

Whatever it is, it needs to be sorted and sorted out fast.

Obviously, I agree 100% on what Carlos said here...this is further proof...which is kind of cool b/c they still couldn't stop us in the end. Rascal, it seems to me you are truly grasping our type of offense and the differences between us and say, Seattle, Redskins and esp. the WCO/Spread offenses with Brady, Mannng and Brees. TOTALLY DIFFERENT PLAYBOOKS...no matter who is at QB.

My contention given the school-of-thought HaRoman came from, college-to-now, under two totally different QB's now with the same plays.results/issues, is that this is just what our offense is and clearly, the DC's (and players) have easily caught up to it (whether they can stop it or not). I picked up on it by merely, and initially, casually watching the passing plays. Lynch (or another) backed it up by watching CK's head (i.e. where he was looking) on passing plays. I watched the first 21 passing plays of the Arizona game (post #187 in this thread) and 100% of the passes where one-reads, appearing pre-determined, plays; quick passes under 3 seconds to the target reiever and plays "schemed" to get that one target the ball. And CK would go there whether Boldin, VD or Miller were covered or not (some risky throws too) and the play designs where very basic (it seemed like we only ran about 4 plays total; you might have a different target though from the formation). Many were "schemed" well and executed nicely so that was good.

But I hear you re: quality. B/c right now, if you aren't Gore, VD or Boldin, you'll be lucky to get a few carries or more than one catch a game. BUT, if Crabtree and Manningham come back 100% healthy and look dynamic, I'd expect a few more plays by HaRoman schemed in for them as well, and hopefully create a better balance. But still, I don't expect much more. More than likely, Crabtree may replace Boldin as the annointed receiver. Either way, I don't ever expect this offense to be a "spread it around to everyone early and often" or a "ball controlled" type passing game.

If a team such as Seattle (who CAN play this way) plays press and jams up our annointed receiver (you're right; either VD or Boldin) at the LOS that play is blown up and CK is off and running...like Carlos said (albeit a lot less this year with his foot and the way defenses are spying him).
[ Edited by NCommand on Oct 17, 2013 at 9:44 AM ]
Interesting points! But I would change that to CK is a run and throw QB, versus a throw first or run first. He is extremely good at both but needs to adapt to the NFL by learning to read more quickly when defenses try to change up their coverages. Most young QB have to make this transition. Teams like Balt have shown the league how to fool young QBs by bunching at the line and then falling back, or staying back and blitzing late...just messes with their minds.

I would say the difference between Wilson and CK is that Wilson is a scrambler and Kaepernick is a runner. Both good but Wilson reminds me of Tarkenton while CK reminds me of Young.
There are
Originally posted by NCommand:
If a team such as Seattle (who CAN play this way) plays press and jams up the primary target (you're right; either D or Boldin) at the LOS that play is blown up and CK is off and running...like Carlos said (albeit less this year).
First off, Russell Wilson and his offense are based on broken plays and improvisation. Secondly, Seattle can do this to any team as long as they don't get penalized. They got penalized at Indianapolis and Sherman looked like a scrub getting beaten badly on every other play in the second half.

Sherman is a very slow corner with outstanding ball skills and great physique who relies on getting away with illegal contact and defensive holding on half of the plays. Boldin is exactly that as a wide receiver but eight years older. Once Davis had a sore hamstring you could just write the words GAME OVER into your notebook.

Against the Colts Davis was out and they concentrated on Boldin. Roman completely abandoned the running game in the second half and called the plays as if they were behind three scores when in fact they were behind six points in the fourth quarter.

People also believe all that crap about the "best oline in football". The Niners right now are fielding the most overrated oline in football. They are utterly inconsistent and kill almost every second drive by letting the defense blow up plays from the root up. Apart from Staley they were especially weak in pass protection against Seattle, the Colts and the Cardinals and erratic in run blocking. Most of that is on Goodwin giving up pressure over the middle or simply missing blocks. Last game they couldn't play a solid sequence until that 18-play drive in the fourth quarter.

When Kaepernick gets the right call and the oline holds up he does go through progressions. He sometimes throws inaccurate passes or throws way too hard when all that was needed is a ball with a lot of touch and gets too many balls batted away. And he loses too many fumbles. That's on him. But claiming that he is a one read quarterback is just flat out wrong. What's true is that right now the wide receivers apart from Boldin are so weak that Roman and Harbaugh need to scheme to get anybody open.

Against the Packers Kaepernick threw several passes to the second or third option. That's because in that game guys were getting open against Capers' stupid zone defense and Kaepernick had more than one guy who was supposed to get open. Since then every opponent played mostly man coverage against the 9ers' receivers which they obviously can't beat consistently enough. Now Roman has to send guys on special routes to get Davis or Boldin, the only guys with any playmaking ability apart from Gore, open. If they don't get open he throws it to Miller underneath. And if you wonder why Gore doesn't get balls in the passing game that's because he has to stay in blocking because the oline ain't getting it done alone by themselves.

Kaepernick didn't get any help from his teammates and OC against Seattle and Indie and since then with more support from Roman his play has improved again. But the playcalling is still a little weird at times, like when they went with an empty backfield twice in a row last game. Wide receiver is the team's weakest position and they go with five wide so the opponent knows they're going to pass.

This is a young quarterback who is playing tough defenses after torching a bad one. His OC is calling questionable plays and his supporting cast is weak. If James, Manningham and Crabtree had been healthy at the start of the season neither Moore nor Williams would have made the team. And Baldwin has gotten chances only because Patton went down. So we're talking about #5 receivers getting work at #2 and #3.
Originally posted by zugschef:
There are First off, Russell Wilson and his offense are based on broken plays and improvisation. Secondly, Seattle can do this to any team as long as they don't get penalized. They got penalized at Indianapolis and Sherman looked like a scrub getting beaten badly on every other play in the second half.

Sherman is a very slow corner with outstanding ball skills and great physique who relies on getting away with illegal contact and defensive holding on half of the plays. Boldin is exactly that as a wide receiver but eight years older. Once Davis had a sore hamstring you could just write the words GAME OVER into your notebook.

Against the Colts Davis was out and they concentrated on Boldin. Roman completely abandoned the running game in the second half and called the plays as if they were behind three scores when in fact they were behind six points in the fourth quarter.

People also believe all that crap about the "best oline in football". The Niners right now are fielding the most overrated oline in football. They are utterly inconsistent and kill almost every second drive by letting the defense blow up plays from the root up. Apart from Staley they were especially weak in pass protection against Seattle, the Colts and the Cardinals and erratic in run blocking. Most of that is on Goodwin giving up pressure over the middle or simply missing blocks. Last game they couldn't play a solid sequence until that 18-play drive in the fourth quarter.

When Kaepernick gets the right call and the oline holds up he does go through progressions. He sometimes throws inaccurate passes or throws way too hard when all that was needed is a ball with a lot of touch and gets too many balls batted away. And he loses too many fumbles. That's on him. But claiming that he is a one read quarterback is just flat out wrong. What's true is that right now the wide receivers apart from Boldin are so weak that Roman and Harbaugh need to scheme to get anybody open.

Against the Packers Kaepernick threw several passes to the second or third option. That's because in that game guys were getting open against Capers' stupid zone defense and Kaepernick had more than one guy who was supposed to get open. Since then every opponent played mostly man coverage against the 9ers' receivers which they obviously can't beat consistently enough. Now Roman has to send guys on special routes to get Davis or Boldin, the only guys with any playmaking ability apart from Gore, open. If they don't get open he throws it to Miller underneath. And if you wonder why Gore doesn't get balls in the passing game that's because he has to stay in blocking because the oline ain't getting it done alone by themselves.

Kaepernick didn't get any help from his teammates and OC against Seattle and Indie and since then with more support from Roman his play has improved again. But the playcalling is still a little weird at times, like when they went with an empty backfield twice in a row last game. Wide receiver is the team's weakest position and they go with five wide so the opponent knows they're going to pass.

This is a young quarterback who is playing tough defenses after torching a bad one. His OC is calling questionable plays and his supporting cast is weak. If James, Manningham and Crabtree had been healthy at the start of the season neither Moore nor Williams would have made the team. And Baldwin has gotten chances only because Patton went down. So we're talking about #5 receivers getting work at #2 and #3.

1) Isn't this how things are supposed to work -- you scheme a player to get open without necessarily asking the player to win every match up?

2) Why not attack man2man with timing/comebacks routes mixed in with hesitation /flys? I think you want to blame the weak receivers, but I think there is a scheme blind spot here too.

3) Why not keep miller in to block and playfake + release gore? I would rather have Gore in the open field... ?

4) This is ok -- it's a different look besides stacking 5 players behind the line.

5) I am not sure Kap has handled adversity that great on the field. The turnovers are bad. I think he's a winner but either he needs to fit the scheme better or the scheme needs to fit him better. Or some combination of the two.

I like your post its interesting but I don't totally buy the weak receiver argument that this is the root cause of all problems.
Wilson and Kaepernicks stats on the season are identical except for the rushing attempts and yards which Wilson has 50 rushing attempts for 294 yards through 6 games. Kaepernick has 31 attempts for 172 yards.

I'm not disputing Kaeps one read tendency although I believe that's overblown. There have been multiple games where you can visibly see Kaep going through multiple progressions. I'm disputing one read and run claim. He barely runs and yet I see Wilson running all the time, and sometimes after what looks like one read as well. I really don't understand his scouting report.
Originally posted by zugschef:
There are
Originally posted by NCommand:
If a team such as Seattle (who CAN play this way) plays press and jams up the primary target (you're right; either D or Boldin) at the LOS that play is blown up and CK is off and running...like Carlos said (albeit less this year).
First off, Russell Wilson and his offense are based on broken plays and improvisation. Secondly, Seattle can do this to any team as long as they don't get penalized. They got penalized at Indianapolis and Sherman looked like a scrub getting beaten badly on every other play in the second half.

Sherman is a very slow corner with outstanding ball skills and great physique who relies on getting away with illegal contact and defensive holding on half of the plays. Boldin is exactly that as a wide receiver but eight years older. Once Davis had a sore hamstring you could just write the words GAME OVER into your notebook.

Against the Colts Davis was out and they concentrated on Boldin. Roman completely abandoned the running game in the second half and called the plays as if they were behind three scores when in fact they were behind six points in the fourth quarter.

People also believe all that crap about the "best oline in football". The Niners right now are fielding the most overrated oline in football. They are utterly inconsistent and kill almost every second drive by letting the defense blow up plays from the root up. Apart from Staley they were especially weak in pass protection against Seattle, the Colts and the Cardinals and erratic in run blocking. Most of that is on Goodwin giving up pressure over the middle or simply missing blocks. Last game they couldn't play a solid sequence until that 18-play drive in the fourth quarter.

When Kaepernick gets the right call and the oline holds up he does go through progressions. He sometimes throws inaccurate passes or throws way too hard when all that was needed is a ball with a lot of touch and gets too many balls batted away. And he loses too many fumbles. That's on him. But claiming that he is a one read quarterback is just flat out wrong. What's true is that right now the wide receivers apart from Boldin are so weak that Roman and Harbaugh need to scheme to get anybody open.

Against the Packers Kaepernick threw several passes to the second or third option. That's because in that game guys were getting open against Capers' stupid zone defense and Kaepernick had more than one guy who was supposed to get open. Since then every opponent played mostly man coverage against the 9ers' receivers which they obviously can't beat consistently enough. Now Roman has to send guys on special routes to get Davis or Boldin, the only guys with any playmaking ability apart from Gore, open. If they don't get open he throws it to Miller underneath. And if you wonder why Gore doesn't get balls in the passing game that's because he has to stay in blocking because the oline ain't getting it done alone by themselves.

Kaepernick didn't get any help from his teammates and OC against Seattle and Indie and since then with more support from Roman his play has improved again. But the playcalling is still a little weird at times, like when they went with an empty backfield twice in a row last game. Wide receiver is the team's weakest position and they go with five wide so the opponent knows they're going to pass.

This is a young quarterback who is playing tough defenses after torching a bad one. His OC is calling questionable plays and his supporting cast is weak. If James, Manningham and Crabtree had been healthy at the start of the season neither Moore nor Williams would have made the team. And Baldwin has gotten chances only because Patton went down. So we're talking about #5 receivers getting work at #2 and #3.

Good post but you again are focusing on surface level details here...the ISSUE isn't that CK is a one-read only QB. It's that THAT is how our offense is built to be...now under two QB's. Again, go back to any game, even the most recent game and watch every passing play...an analyst just confirmed it...a defensive player who just played us confirmed it...I confirmed it in this thread. CK is doing exactly what this offense is designed to do (not dimissing his misses, trust, mechanical issues, ball security, RZ panics, etc.). Carlos was referring to CK being a one-read QB not b/c he is a poor, novice QB but b/c THAT is our ofense. If you can expose and pre-determine who the annointed receiver is, you can jam/blow up the play and CK is off and scrambling/running...usually with his eyes downfield. This is how he is coached (and to slide and throw the ball away) within our offense. And guess what? Alex Smith was coached the same way. You will rarely see a progression read b/c those are not built in to this offense. If you see one it's rare and typically means it's an ad lib play turned successful or another receiver opened up (outside the target WR) in the area and he has to choose one. It is what it is and we can talk about all the surface level stuff until we're blue in the face but how much more evidence do we need?
Originally posted by NinerG94:
Wilson and Kaepernicks stats on the season are identical except for the rushing attempts and yards which Wilson has 50 rushing attempts for 294 yards through 6 games. Kaepernick has 31 attempts for 172 yards.

I'm not disputing Kaeps one read tendency although I believe that's overblown. There have been multiple games where you can visibly see Kaep going through multiple progressions. I'm disputing one read and run claim. He barely runs and yet I see Wilson running all the time, and sometimes after what looks like one read as well. I really don't understand his scouting report.

Wilson scrambles around a lot extending plays because his OL hasn't been good in pass protection. I've seen him make many would be sackers miss and then hit a 2nd or 3rd option or get some positive yardage on the run. If he wasn't so elusive in the pocket his passing stats would be worse than Kaps. Stats alone don't tell the whole picture.
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Originally posted by zugschef:
There are First off, Russell Wilson and his offense are based on broken plays and improvisation. Secondly, Seattle can do this to any team as long as they don't get penalized. They got penalized at Indianapolis and Sherman looked like a scrub getting beaten badly on every other play in the second half.

Sherman is a very slow corner with outstanding ball skills and great physique who relies on getting away with illegal contact and defensive holding on half of the plays. Boldin is exactly that as a wide receiver but eight years older. Once Davis had a sore hamstring you could just write the words GAME OVER into your notebook.

Against the Colts Davis was out and they concentrated on Boldin. Roman completely abandoned the running game in the second half and called the plays as if they were behind three scores when in fact they were behind six points in the fourth quarter.

People also believe all that crap about the "best oline in football". The Niners right now are fielding the most overrated oline in football. They are utterly inconsistent and kill almost every second drive by letting the defense blow up plays from the root up. Apart from Staley they were especially weak in pass protection against Seattle, the Colts and the Cardinals and erratic in run blocking. Most of that is on Goodwin giving up pressure over the middle or simply missing blocks. Last game they couldn't play a solid sequence until that 18-play drive in the fourth quarter.

When Kaepernick gets the right call and the oline holds up he does go through progressions. He sometimes throws inaccurate passes or throws way too hard when all that was needed is a ball with a lot of touch and gets too many balls batted away. And he loses too many fumbles. That's on him. But claiming that he is a one read quarterback is just flat out wrong. What's true is that right now the wide receivers apart from Boldin are so weak that Roman and Harbaugh need to scheme to get anybody open.

Against the Packers Kaepernick threw several passes to the second or third option. That's because in that game guys were getting open against Capers' stupid zone defense and Kaepernick had more than one guy who was supposed to get open. Since then every opponent played mostly man coverage against the 9ers' receivers which they obviously can't beat consistently enough. Now Roman has to send guys on special routes to get Davis or Boldin, the only guys with any playmaking ability apart from Gore, open. If they don't get open he throws it to Miller underneath. And if you wonder why Gore doesn't get balls in the passing game that's because he has to stay in blocking because the oline ain't getting it done alone by themselves.

Kaepernick didn't get any help from his teammates and OC against Seattle and Indie and since then with more support from Roman his play has improved again. But the playcalling is still a little weird at times, like when they went with an empty backfield twice in a row last game. Wide receiver is the team's weakest position and they go with five wide so the opponent knows they're going to pass.

This is a young quarterback who is playing tough defenses after torching a bad one. His OC is calling questionable plays and his supporting cast is weak. If James, Manningham and Crabtree had been healthy at the start of the season neither Moore nor Williams would have made the team. And Baldwin has gotten chances only because Patton went down. So we're talking about #5 receivers getting work at #2 and #3.

1) Isn't this how things are supposed to work -- you scheme a player to get open without necessarily asking the player to win every match up?

2) Why not attack man2man with timing/comebacks routes mixed in with hesitation /flys? I think you want to blame the weak receivers, but I think there is a scheme blind spot here too.

3) Why not keep miller in to block and playfake + release gore? I would rather have Gore in the open field... ?

4) This is ok -- it's a different look besides stacking 5 players behind the line.

5) I am not sure Kap has handled adversity that great on the field. The turnovers are bad. I think he's a winner but either he needs to fit the scheme better or the scheme needs to fit him better. Or some combination of the two.

I like your post its interesting but I don't totally buy the weak receiver argument that this is the root cause of all problems.

Good post. Totally agree with all points made....
Originally posted by NCommand:
Good post but you again are focusing on surface level details here...the ISSUE isn't that CK is a one-read only QB. It's that THAT is how our offense is built to be...now under two QB's. Again, go back to any game, even the most recent game and watch every passing play...an analyst just confirmed it...a defensive player who just played us confirmed it...I confirmed it in this thread. CK is doing exactly what this offense is designed to do (not dimissing his misses, trust, mechanical issues, ball security, RZ panics, etc.). Carlos was referring to CK being a one-read QB not b/c he is a poor, novice QB but b/c THAT is our ofense. If you can expose and pre-determine who the annointed receiver is, you can jam/blow up the play and CK is off and scrambling/running...usually with his eyes downfield. This is how he is coached (and to slide and throw the ball away) within our offense. And guess what? Alex Smith was coached the same way. You will rarely see a progression read b/c those are not built in to this offense. If you see one it's rare and typically means it's an ad lib play turned successful or another receiver opened up (outside the target WR) in the area and he has to choose one. It is what it is and we can talk about all the surface level stuff until we're blue in the face but how much more evidence do we need?


OK. Our scheme sucks. Now what? -- NC have you changed you're tune on this in the last few days? I posted problems with our scheme sunday and you were saying how every thing was hunky dory -- look at all the short passes/checkdowns in the Arizona game, we're going legit with small yard/medium yard playcalling, and so on. Now it sounds like you characterized our college hack Bo schembecler offense as a run heavy blocking extravaganza with some deep balls thrown in.

Which way are you going with this?

How do we get a pro offense running that will keep the DC's honest and not able to blow up our strategy by keying on a couple of players?

thoughts?
[ Edited by brodiebluebanaszak on Oct 17, 2013 at 10:24 AM ]
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Good post but you again are focusing on surface level details here...the ISSUE isn't that CK is a one-read only QB. It's that THAT is how our offense is built to be...now under two QB's. Again, go back to any game, even the most recent game and watch every passing play...an analyst just confirmed it...a defensive player who just played us confirmed it...I confirmed it in this thread. CK is doing exactly what this offense is designed to do (not dimissing his misses, trust, mechanical issues, ball security, RZ panics, etc.). Carlos was referring to CK being a one-read QB not b/c he is a poor, novice QB but b/c THAT is our ofense. If you can expose and pre-determine who the annointed receiver is, you can jam/blow up the play and CK is off and scrambling/running...usually with his eyes downfield. This is how he is coached (and to slide and throw the ball away) within our offense. And guess what? Alex Smith was coached the same way. You will rarely see a progression read b/c those are not built in to this offense. If you see one it's rare and typically means it's an ad lib play turned successful or another receiver opened up (outside the target WR) in the area and he has to choose one. It is what it is and we can talk about all the surface level stuff until we're blue in the face but how much more evidence do we need?


OK. Our scheme sucks. Now what? -- NC have you changed you're tune on this in the last few days? I posted problems with our scheme sunday and you were saying how every thing was hunky dory -- look at all the short passes/checkdowns in the Arizona game, we're going legit with small yard/medium yard playcalling, and so on. Now it sounds like you characterized our college hack Bo schembecler offense as a run heavy blocking extravaganza with some deep balls thrown in.

Which way are you going with this?

How do we get a pro offense running that will keep the DC's honest and not able to blow up our strategy by keying on a couple of players?

thoughts?

Hey brodie...

I apologize if I came off as "this offense sucks!" Obviously that is not the case on any level. We just beat the Cardinals and they fully were aware of our type of offense. Like our running game, you know it's coming but we are so talented, even if you stack 10 in the box, Gore could still break one for a TD once in a while. If Roman continues to "scheme" correctly, VD and Boldin will continue to be open on underneath crossing routes, wheel routes, quick sideline comebacks, corner EZ routes. They are just better and huge mismatches on 75% of the DB's they will face...often times even in press and jam-coverage. I'm very happy we are getting BACK to the Bo Schembechler basics b/c it suits our strength along the OL and RB positions and takes some heat off of CK. We are very creative and dynamic in the run game (minus those slow developing stretch runs that net us -5 yards every time - LOL).

Now, here is where I'm concerned: 1) The passing game (schemed/pre-determined) 2) First down production 3) RZ woes and 4) Opposition adjustments

1) The pre-determined, one-read, "schemed" passing plays (under 3 seconds) - as long as Roman can stay ahead of the DC's, attack weaknesses, etc. this can still work (as we saw with AZ). The issue I'm concerned about is the lack of built in outlets (i.e. RB's flaring out, TE's finding soft zones, the rest of the non-targeted WR's doing a better job of ad libbing and being on the same page as CK and check-outs pre-snap. I don't know if Roman's offense has ANY of this built in or if he needs another year+ to install that next level. Also, I'm seeing many times with 10 guys creeping up to the LOS, we run right up the gut into a wall. Where is the check-out to single coverage? The "hot reads?" Attacking the vacated blitzing area?
2) Horrendous...it's been an issue for 3 straight years. If this team doesn't get 4+ yards on first down, we're in big trouble and play right into the DC's even more. Why we can't "scheme" better production from this down, I have yet to figure out. It's a simple formula...when we do, we win.
3) Pre-Roman, we were the best RZ in the game...3 years later, we're perpetually a poor team here. Compartmentalized game plan issues here?
4) Last year our offense was unknown to the NFL and we took full advantage of it under CK...it was more "dynamic" and "explosive." We'd run teams to death with Gore or we'd pass for 300+ yards or we'd even beat a great playoff team by running our QB all over them. Teams had NO clue, like the Bears noted, how to even START to defend us. Now, the read-option has already been thrown out, CK is getting hit from the Q-formation and DC's are figuring out how to stuff us...jam the primary target and spy CK with a LB or DB.

Solutions? I'm looking to you guys who have watched more college football to review some old film and tell me if our offense is not fundamentally sound for the NFL today or if we have another layer or two that has yet to be installed (like the WCO that takes 3-4 years) that is apparent among NFL offenses in today's game...3,5,7-step drops, scripted plays, spread formations with multiple receiving options, multiple pre-snap options/audibles, hot reads, 3-layer route trees, short outlets built in, etc. B/c right now, Carlos is right...one-read and if thwarted, CK is off scrambling (running, looking to pass). It's that simple.
[ Edited by NCommand on Oct 17, 2013 at 11:18 AM ]
Originally posted by Rascal:
I can see this is becoming quite a huge discussion. Whether this "one-read" issue is a product of Kap or the playcall, all I know is this when I watched the latest episode of Total Access.

Carlos Dansby was being interviewed on the show about tomorrow's Thursday Night Football match-up against Seattle. When asked how differently the Cards will have to get prepared for the Seahawks versus the 9ers, what he said was this, he said Kap and Wilson are totally different. He said Kap is an "one-read" then run QB whereas Wilson is a throw-first QB.

This tells me one thing, the way teams are scouting Kap is "one-read and run". That to me is rather worrying. For one, it is true disregard whether it is intentional or otherwise. But, it also means it is not incredibly difficult to stop our passing game once the key go-to receivers are shut down. If you look at what has been going on for the past 6 weeks, we have learnt that we really only have 2 main receiver options in Anquan and Vernon.

If we are not spreading the ball amongst different receivers which we are not, it will probably mean at least in theory the success of our passing game is reliant on having stud WRs who can win their one-on-ones. In other words, our supporting cast WRs are pretty much non-factors, they can't help us even if they wanted to cos they have not been factored into the play designs.

If that is the way we are going to continue to scheme our passing game, it seems to me it is almost imperative we will need more "stud WRs" whereby G Ro and Harbaugh will have enough trust in the person to run a designed play on the guy if indeed progression is not built into our pass playcalls. That is the only way we can have more than 2 WR options to ease the predictability factor.

Personally, I find it hard to believe there are no secondary WR options on a given play. But, I haven't watched all the film, so I am not going to argue it.

Whatever it is, it needs to be sorted and sorted out fast.


Well that is a pretty stupid statement by Carlos Dansby, who doesn't sound like he's ever scouted these 2 QB's, and is merely relying on stereotypes to make his analysis. Kap is NOT a one-read-then-run QB, and that is established by the fact that he hasn't run all that much at all. Moreover, even one-read QB's are throw-first QBs; as in they look to throw the ball before they commit to running it. Wilson has not in any way shown a greater ability to go through progressions and be patient in the pocket than has Kap. And most of Wilson's plays have been out-of-structure plays, meaning that he doesn't stay in the pocket and go through his reads, but rather scrambles at the first sense of pressure and tries to make a play through improvisation. This style of playing QB is not sustainable. This is what Vick was known for. The difference I think is that Wilson is smarter than Vick and a harder worker. But the implication that Wilson is somehow a polished pocket passer while Kap only looks at one read and takes off is so far from reality that it sounds downright silly. All these cable channels are hiring way too many people to do analysis, many of whom are not very good at it. So they just rely on stereotypes and regurgitate generalizations rather than actually doing film study and scouting players themselves.