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Wide receivers ARE getting open!

Originally posted by 5280High:
Well thats awesome you were in the box with Baalke and know the full context of his reaction, im sure there is absolutely no speculation involved in that statement.

Its been fun bantering back and forth but im gonna hit the hay, Hopefully all our troubles are cured with a 300+ yard performance this week and we can talk about how both Kap and our WRs have improved over the week.

How I wish this was true. I don't think Tennesses D is going to be any easier but here's to hoping. Night man.
[ Edited by eonblue on Oct 16, 2013 at 1:08 AM ]
Originally posted by trellblaze:
Originally posted by Buchy:
Another poster in the forum made a very good point on this, the receiver needs to be open at the right TIME otherwise it's pointless. The time they are open must match the play call and the QB drop back and read timing otherwise he's onto the next read, and that poster was right.

Doesn't matter if Baldwin is 10 yards open if it's 3 seconds after he's supposed to be, Kap might already have moved on to check other side of the field.

Play design might be an issue in this case....

Yea, I think you're referring to me >>>>>>>>

Oct 14, 2013 at 9:40 AM
#10131

Geeze all you guys who keep saying "Kaepernick only makes one read and stares him down the whole play", just stop it. I can tell most of you have no idea what you're talking about. You saw Mayock point it out on a few occasions during ONE game and are simply running away with it. I can't count how many times I've read "well what good is getting all his weapons back gonna do if he only makes one read?"

Kaepernick does NOT make one read and throw the ball. Also, as someone previously mentioned, you do not look off the safety on every play. Otherwise, the defense would know that you're going to throw to the opposite side of the field that you're looking at every time. How effective would a "look off" be if the safety knows you're just looking him off?

A lot of reads are made BEFORE the ball is even snapped. You know where you're going to go with the ball based on the defense that you see. If you already know where you're supposed to go with the ball - if you already have the matchup that a particular play was designed for, what "progression" is there to go through?

Do you know how many time's I've seen guys like Peyton Manning and Tom Brady make huge throws without even checking to see if the guy was covered? That's because they knew before the snap, based on where the defense was going to go vs where the play was designed, exactly where the WR was going to be vs the defender. Kaepernick is not on their level on the pre-snap process but that doesn't mean he simply looks at a WR and throws him the ball. Of all the ridiculous reasons given for Kaepernick's struggles - and there have been many ridiculous ones - this one is at the very top.

Understand the what you're looking at before you go criticizing it. Different situations and play-calls call for different reactions by each player. Kaepernick goes through reads when he's supposed to. When he does, nobody is open at the right time. That's right, on some plays, there are certain times/windows that the WR should be open. It doesn't matter if Kyle Williams is open by 10 yards if he got open 2 seconds AFTER the play was designed to get him open. By that time, Kaepernick has probably moved on to - dare I say it - his second read and no longer sees Williams. It may also be that Williams is open by 10 yards because the defense, in their scheme, realizes that Williams missed his window and have released him to focus on where the QB is currently looking. They know he's not going to get a chance to go back to Williams or is not in a position to make an accurate throw towards him.

That's just one of soooo many different scenarios.


END POST


NCommand's post was also a GREAT breakdown of how our offense works. I think everyone needs to read his post and truly understand it. You'll then understand our play calling and a number of other things about our offense.


Yeah it was you, thanks for re-posting it, I couldn't remember you user name it or where I'd read it.
yet another thread created by an alex smith fanboy who can't get over his sorry a$$ being gone. Is the NO mercy?
Originally posted by eonblue:
Originally posted by trellblaze:
LOL. Go look for NCommand's post explaining Roman's offense. You'll understand that it's more about what the play is designed to do than what Kaepernick "looks" at.

I read it and it doesn't matter.

One you don't even know if that's the style of offense we run. You don't know how often we run it. Yea we try to get Vernon isolated one on one. Yea we try to clear DB's out with decoy WRs. These are number calling play's and I highly doubt the coaches are calling Davis and Boldin every single play. If the defense eliminates your main read you have a 2nd and 3rd option. Are you trying to tell me Kaep should just ignore the other receivers because he has a "main" read? A main read that happens to smother in coverage, and baked in DB sauce. Lastly more often than not Baldwin or KW are running routes that clearly are not part of a scheme to get someone open. Yet again these number calling plays probably amount to 5-6 a game.

"Meh boy BLUE!"

IMHO, all the surface level stuff (i.e. WR's aren't getting seperation at the right time, CK not seeing open WR's when they are open, CK's mechanics, lack of experience in his 3rd year, poor at reading defenses, etc.) are essentially, issues that stem from two main issues 1) the type of offensive we run here (offensive philosophy) and 2) coaching within it.

The Cardinals game is up thanks to Whomeam (the MAN): http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/niners/174093-arizona-game-uploaded/ Post #194!

I'd recommend watching every single passing play and you will note an alarming one-read trend the mass majority of the game, if not the entire game. CK executes what HaRoMan call. And I'm not even sure if he is killing plays anymore. In fact, there was one play that stood out to me in particular that highlighted this issue...TEN defenders on first down (IIRC) walked up to the LOS and "clearly" were run blitzing. CK actually had time to audible out (rare) if given that option and instead, it was a run right up the gut for a short loss/no gain. CK executes what is relayed to him. He is not Peyton Mannings who "is" the OC on the field.

Tthe "annointed receiver" is obviously called for either Boldin and VD (not just b/c CK "trusts them") but b/c HaRoMan trust them and call their numbers time and time again. Evidence in EVERY game proves this game plan (e.g. 11 combined catches for these two and 1 catch each for everyone else).

SO my recommendation would be NOT to watch the annointed receiver (one-read) but the supporting cast around him. I'm guessing 75% if not 100% of the time, play calling/game plan is one-read quick passes or scheming the annointed receiver (also a one-read). The rest are ad lib plays...maybe someone other than the primary target gets the ball on a good ad lib.

When it works, we blow teams out. When it doesn't, we get blown out.

PS: Nobody is making excuses for CK...he clearly has some mechanical issues, trust issues, hesitations, INT's in the RZ, fumbles, jumpy, etc. BUT this is where #2 comes in. Coaching. So if like Baalke, you're up in the sky box and you see CK sprint out right, the annointed receiver is covered and you see him throw it out of bounds or run for a few yards WHILE in the middle of the field McDonald, Davis and Baldwin are open by 10 yards each, you have to consider how he is coached and given our history, it's safe to say he's coached to be VERY conservative: one-read and if not there, run with the intention of throwing a high % pass only; or throw it out of bounds.
[ Edited by NCommand on Oct 16, 2013 at 8:56 AM ]
Originally posted by Niners99:
People forget our QB is still a kid who just completed his first full season worth of starts. The whole "leading us to the SB" thing makes you forget, but hes still learning. Hes going to miss open receivers, rely on only his favorites, and hesitate in the pocket. Be patient, hes going to be one of the very best in the business someday soon.

He needs to work on trusting his WR to be where the ball is going. He just doesnt have the reps with Williams or Baldwin yet. He doesnt trust them to be there. He trusts Boldin and Davis, which is why he tries to force balls their way over taking a chance at a potentially open Jon Baldwin.

He also needs to step up in the pocket and throw (or run). Hes gotten into a bad habit of running backwards toward the sidelines and throwing off his back leg. Maybe his foot issue is causing this, but he'll be fine.


THIS X1000000
This has been an interesting and well argued point on all sides. So first thanks Kali for posting something interesting. Thanks to others for keeping this a relatively civil and thoughtful thread.

I want to say, all things being weighed that the OP (Kali49er) is correct. Yes there are lots of reasons why open guys are not open and when and where etc. But the basic point is true. The other guys are often open. The ball isn't going their way for one reason and one reason only. Kaep isn't throwing to them.

You could say it's the reads/coaching/play calling whatever. Fine but that just means that Kaep needs to do a better job pre and post snap to understand what he is getting from the Defense. I think he is and will get better at this. A fine example of this was the conversion to Kyle Williams on the penultimate drive Sunday. It was obvious from the sky view that Williams was going to be open on that play. I wondered if it was as obvious to Kaep. Apparently it was. Kaep had other opportunities to hit guys who were open throughout the Cards game and either stuck with a covered guy or never got to the open one.

To me it all comes back to Trust. which all comes back to Kaep. The coaches need to trust him to make reads, he needs to trust that some of the unproven guys will make catches, he needs to trust his eyes more, and trust himself to make the throw.

Ultimately Kaep has played well this season. He is still growing and he needs to continue to grow if we are going to keep things rolling in SF for years to come.

I think he will be just fine. There was an article or post recently that asked if Kaep was a game manager. I say know. He is not yet a field general, he could be, but for now I would qualify him as a game breaker. We need to continue to rely on the run and if we force the defense to deal with Truth and the Gang then we can TRUST that Kaep will take advantage of what that does to a defense.
^^^ OK since I didn't expect anyone to watch/analyze the Cards game (and the Texans game we only had 6 completions), I did...watched every single passing play again in the first half and guess what I counted/saw?

One-read passes to the "annointed receiver" = 100% of the time. There were 21 passing attempts.

This means the play-calling dictates the receivers, not CK via progression-reading.

Details:
Almost all passes were under 3 seconds (or designed that way). The very first pass of the game was a little iffy but it looked like it was Boldin all the way (incomplete). He had two passing plays where he had to scramble and threw it away (coaching). He had a very head's up play for the TD to VD on an obvious offsides (free play) by the defense and Davis was the annointed receiver on this route as well. It seemed like we only had a few different passing plays in general. McDonald did a great job taking a S with him to clear out VD underneath on wheel-route type completions. The other standard play was the right-sprint-out with CK to either Boldin or Miller. In fact, he hesitated on the Miller pass in the EZ, it got tipped and INT. Also, he probably could have had 2 more INT's forcing it in to the annointed receiver with blanket coverage. One was pathetic...3rd and 10ish and he throws to VD about 5 yards short of the 1st down, forces it in there and I have no idea how VD caught it = punt. Another issue was when Baldwin who appeared to be the annointed receiver was running across the field WIDE OPEN on 2nd and 18, CK stares him down the entire way and then decides to run up the gut for 17 instead. To simplify the passing game even further, the commentator made an astute observation...run or pass, follow Bruce Miller and that is where the ball is going. He's right the mass majority of the time too. The second TD to VD, CK looked off the S to the left and then hit VD in the EZ on the right. Nice veteran play but it was still VD all the way (as the commentator noted as well). Most passes were in the middle of the field. Both Boldin and Williams had 3rd down completions from the slot where they ran an uncontested straight-line route, faked left, caught the ball, spun right and turned up field (we could have run this play all game long BTW). At the 1:06 while driving with a good rhythm, this was an interesting play. We have a 4 WR-set. The Cards bring serious press coverage at the LOS AND blitz their middle LBers; only 2 deep S's to the left side (about 10 yards of the LOS). CK is pressured instantly and fumbles. THIS is a crappy play call and clearly, there was no "hot read." When we run a 4 WR-set it's almost always 2 or 3 WR's sprint deep (in this case, right into the S's) and one WR cuts underneath (Williams from the X, from left to right). CK had no chance to hit anyone as it takes a few seconds to clear out space underneath for Williams (who also looked like he was half-assing it). This could have lead to 3 or 7 points and deflated the Cards already up 22-14 at that point.
[ Edited by NCommand on Oct 16, 2013 at 9:02 AM ]
Originally posted by NCommand:
^^^ OK since I didn't expect anyone to watch/analyze the Cards game (and the Texans game we only had 6 completions), I did...watched every single passing play again in the first half and guess what I counted/saw?

One-read passes to the "annointed receiver" = 100% of the time. There were 21 passing attempts.

This means the play-calling dictates the receivers, not CK via progression-reading.

Details:
Almost all passes were under 3 seconds (or designed that way). The very first pass of the game was a little iffy but it looked like it was Boldin all the way (incomplete). He had two passing plays where he had to scramble and threw it away (coaching). He had a very head's up play for the TD to VD on an obvious offsides (free play) by the defense and Davis was the annointed receiver on this route as well. It seemed like we only had a few different passing plays in general. McDonald did a great job taking a S with him to clear out VD underneath on wheel-route type completions. The other standard play was the right-sprint-out with CK to either Boldin or Miller. In fact, he hesitated on the Miller pass in the EZ, it got tipped and INT. Also, he probably could have had 2 more INT's forcing it in to the annointed receiver with blanket coverage. One was pathetic...3rd and 10ish and he throws to VD about 5 yards short of the 1st down, forces it in there and I have no idea how VD caught it = punt. Another issue was when Baldwin who appeared to be the annointed receiver was running across the field WIDE OPEN on 2nd and 18, CK stares him down the entire way and then decides to run up the gut for 17 instead. To simplify the passing game even further, the commentator made an astute observation...run or pass, follow Bruce Miller and that is where the ball is going. He's right the mass majority of the time too. The second TD to VD, CK looked off the S to the left and then hit VD in the EZ on the right. Nice veteran play but it was still VD all the way (as the commentator noted as well). Most passes were in the middle of the field. Both Boldin and Williams had 3rd down completions from the slot where they ran an uncontested straight-line route, faked left, caught the ball, spun right and turned up field (we could have run this play all game long BTW). At the 1:06 while driving with a good rhythm, this was an interesting play. We have a 4 WR-set. The Cards bring serious press coverage at the LOS AND blitz their middle LBers; only 2 deep S's to the left side (about 10 yards of the LOS). CK is pressured instantly and fumbles. THIS is a crappy play call and clearly, there was no "hot read." When we run a 4 WR-set it's almost always 2 or 3 WR's sprint deep (in this case, right into the S's) and one WR cuts underneath (Williams from the X, from left to right). CK had no chance to hit anyone as it takes a few seconds to clear out space underneath for Williams (who also looked like he was half-assing it). This could have lead to 3 or 7 points and deflated the Cards already up 22-14 at that point.

Yeah I'm watching some of the coaches film right now and was just going to post that. That was a nice play by Kap, looking the safety off, making sure it was VD and the db one on one. I'd like to see him look guys off more often.
The coaching staff doesnt trust Kaep thats why they are giving him one read options.
Originally posted by valrod33:
The coaching staff doesnt trust Kaep thats why they are giving him one read options.

Good thing he throws the ball instead of being scared to.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by valrod33:
The coaching staff doesnt trust Kaep thats why they are giving him one read options.

Good thing he throws the ball instead of being scared to.

I love INTs and Fumbles and incomplete passes, yay Kaep
  • cciowa
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Originally posted by valrod33:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by valrod33:
The coaching staff doesnt trust Kaep thats why they are giving him one read options.

Good thing he throws the ball instead of being scared to.

I love INTs and Fumbles and incomplete passes, yay Kaep
well a few people did say last year they would be ok with more picks because that means we are taking more chances
The only thing open on our wrs this year are the sores on their butts from all the whippings they get. I can't wait tp get rio and crabs back!
Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
Yeah I'm watching some of the coaches film right now and was just going to post that. That was a nice play by Kap, looking the safety off, making sure it was VD and the db one on one. I'd like to see him look guys off more often.

Sweet, let me know if I missed anything!
Originally posted by valrod33:
The coaching staff doesnt trust Kaep thats why they are giving him one read options.

Boy I hope not altough this passing attack looks similar to when Alex was under tenure here as well...so I'm leaning more towards this offense just being grounded in Bo Schembechler principals. I think even if we had Tom Brady and Randy Moss here, Moss would be running deep posts occupying 2 DB's and Brady would be passng to the annointed receiver under 3 seconds.
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