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Wide receivers ARE getting open!

Originally posted by Niners99:
Arguing about what Kap is doing wrong is pointless. Hes very good, hes young, hes inexperienced. The fact that hes not Peyton Manning after 16 starts is to be expected. Hes far ahead of where Manning was at this point of his career. Hes going to correct all the mistakes as he goes, and in a couple years he'll be a polished pro bowler. Just enjoy watching him blossom and the team win at the same time. People focus too much on the things he needs to work on.

'Williams finished the game with 40 snaps (57 percent), with Jon Baldwin the next wide receiver at 18 snaps (26 percent)"
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by barrymartin:
Originally posted by Niners99:
People forget our QB is still a kid who just completed his first full season worth of starts. The whole "leading us to the SB" thing makes you forget, but hes still learning. Hes going to miss open receivers, rely on only his favorites, and hesitate in the pocket. Be patient, hes going to be one of the very best in the business someday soon.

He needs to work on trusting his WR to be where the ball is going. He just doesnt have the reps with Williams or Baldwin yet. He doesnt trust them to be there. He trusts Boldin and Davis, which is why he tries to force balls their way over taking a chance at a potentially open Jon Baldwin.

He also needs to step up in the pocket and throw (or run). Hes gotten into a bad habit of running backwards toward the sidelines and throwing off his back leg. Maybe his foot issue is causing this, but he'll be fine.

This needs to be coached. They need to make Baldwin the first or second read more often and tell him to make the tight throws as this is essential to opening up the passing game. He's caught in a mind loop of only trusting Davis and Boldin and not taking chances on other receivers, which results in him never developing chemistry or trust in them. Around and around it goes. This is on Harbaugh. Coach him up on this...

It doesnt matter where they are positioned, its the fact that Kap doesnt trust those specific players. Its hard to argue with him, because outside Boldin and VD, our WR corps is pretty bad.

Certainly Boldin and Vernon are much better. And, unless a concerted effort is made to integrate the second and and third WR into the offense we are going to be hampered offensively. He has to be coached to see that this is an overarching priority going ahead in the offense. If he gets it that he has to make it a priority to get passes to Baldwin and Williams for the development of the offense he will do so. He's not stupid and will understand this.
Originally posted by mayo49:
Originally posted by Niners99:
People forget our QB is still a kid who just completed his first full season worth of starts. The whole "leading us to the SB" thing makes you forget, but hes still learning. Hes going to miss open receivers, rely on only his favorites, and hesitate in the pocket. Be patient, hes going to be one of the very best in the business someday soon.

He needs to work on trusting his WR to be where the ball is going. He just doesnt have the reps with Williams or Baldwin yet. He doesnt trust them to be there. He trusts Boldin and Davis, which is why he tries to force balls their way over taking a chance at a potentially open Jon Baldwin.

He also needs to step up in the pocket and throw (or run). Hes gotten into a bad habit of running backwards toward the sidelines and throwing off his back leg. Maybe his foot issue is causing this, but he'll be fine.


Good post, Niners99.

Agreed
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
He LOVES him some 3rd and long draws, though, even though Kap is one of the best in the League on 3rd downs.


This is what has kept us in a lot of games. It has made up for our dismal first and ten production.
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
He LOVES him some 3rd and long draws, though, even though Kap is one of the best in the League on 3rd downs.


This is what has kept us in a lot of games. It has made up for our dismal first and ten production.

Yes
  • dwett
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Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Oh good, I was just wondering if you happen to see something I missed!

And I think you and I think WAY too much WCO...literally, everything you are saying (and I'm mirroring) is grounded in basic WCO principles. I hate to say it but I feel lied to by Roman. When he came on board all he talked about was burying himself in the basement under mounds of WCO tapes recorded by historical Niner coaches. And now? You'd be hard-pressed to find a SINGLE WCO passing play or formation or run blocking scheme grounded in WCO principles...and CK's mechanics? I don't even want to go there!

Yeah I think we'll just make ourselves frustrated waiting for elements of the WCO to appear. It's just us longing for the days when Walsh would systematically carve into defenses. Perhaps it is time to let go.

But, just one more gripe about 'why don't we run more WCO concepts?' Montana and Young never lined up in shotgun. I believe Walsh said it messed with the timing and the footwork of the QB. Also it forces the QB to take his eyes off the field of play to receive the snap while in shotgun. I think Kap needs to get under center on passing plays so that his eyes can remain on the field and reading coverage during the dropback. Taking his eyes off the defense, even for a split second, forces Kap to have to re-adjust his sight after securing the snap. If Kap is pressed for time (blitz coming), then allow him to keep his eyes on the field of play so that he has half a second more to read the defense, and thus, perhaps less locking on receivers.

Yeah, gone are the days of the "well-oiled-machine" and "boy, everyone is getting involved here...that's the 9th different receiver this game!"

That is a very good point...never thought of how the eyes might be tied to the field in a 3, 5 or 6-step drop. I always just thought of the drop-back synchronized with the receivers route. Good times!
First off loved the conversation. Great info. Just curious and I am may be wrong, but over the last two weeks we seem to be running more under center. Do you think they are working to adjust Kaep to what thl408 was stating. He did run all shotgun in college and it may be Harbaugh and Roman are working on this in practice but slowing installing it into the game plan.
Originally posted by jonesadrian:
'Williams finished the game with 40 snaps (57 percent), with Jon Baldwin the next wide receiver at 18 snaps (26 percent)"

I feel that that is a problem and really should be reversed. Williams should be a package only player and used in gadget plays and in misdirection WITH Baldwin on the field at the same time at least.

Boldin ... |---- Vernon| ... Williams ... Baldwin

^ This looks like a more reliable receiving set. Bunch the three on the right.
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Originally posted by jonesadrian:
'Williams finished the game with 40 snaps (57 percent), with Jon Baldwin the next wide receiver at 18 snaps (26 percent)"

I feel that that is a problem and really should be reversed. Williams should be a package only player and used in gadget plays and in misdirection WITH Baldwin on the field at the same time at least.

Boldin ... |---- Vernon| ... Williams ... Baldwin

^ This looks like a more reliable receiving set. Bunch the three on the right.

Oh without a doubt!
Originally posted by dwett:
First off loved the conversation. Great info. Just curious and I am may be wrong, but over the last two weeks we seem to be running more under center. Do you think they are working to adjust Kaep to what thl408 was stating. He did run all shotgun in college and it may be Harbaugh and Roman are working on this in practice but slowing installing it into the game plan.

Yeah, good stuff all around...safe to say we ALL covered the bases here from offensive philosophy to eye-field details. Haha.

I genuinely can't answer this one but it wouldn't take much to review the games to see more of this noted trend (good eye). I know this coaching staff is big on "installation packages" and this may be one of those elements.
  • dwett
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Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by dwett:
First off loved the conversation. Great info. Just curious and I am may be wrong, but over the last two weeks we seem to be running more under center. Do you think they are working to adjust Kaep to what thl408 was stating. He did run all shotgun in college and it may be Harbaugh and Roman are working on this in practice but slowing installing it into the game plan.

Yeah, good stuff all around...safe to say we ALL covered the bases here from offensive philosophy to eye-field details. Haha.

I genuinely can't answer this one but it wouldn't take much to review the games to see more of this noted trend (good eye). I know this coaching staff is big on "installation packages" and this may be one of those elements.
To be honest the main reason I was looking at it is because I feel Frank it a better RB with the QB under center which is going back to the power running game you guys talked about. Never thought of it as a transition for Kaep to get more of a feel under center since he has been in shot gun most of his career. Would open up the playbook and perhaps get us into a more WCO feel the second half of the year.


I know Marvin49 does his weekly reviews. Not sure if he is seeing this or maybe just because I am yelling please get under center and they do, I think it is happening more often then it does.
Originally posted by dwett:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by dwett:
First off loved the conversation. Great info. Just curious and I am may be wrong, but over the last two weeks we seem to be running more under center. Do you think they are working to adjust Kaep to what thl408 was stating. He did run all shotgun in college and it may be Harbaugh and Roman are working on this in practice but slowing installing it into the game plan.

Yeah, good stuff all around...safe to say we ALL covered the bases here from offensive philosophy to eye-field details. Haha.

I genuinely can't answer this one but it wouldn't take much to review the games to see more of this noted trend (good eye). I know this coaching staff is big on "installation packages" and this may be one of those elements.
To be honest the main reason I was looking at it is because I feel Frank it a better RB with the QB under center which is going back to the power running game you guys talked about. Never thought of it as a transition for Kaep to get more of a feel under center since he has been in shot gun most of his career. Would open up the playbook and perhaps get us into a more WCO feel the second half of the year.


I know Marvin49 does his weekly reviews. Not sure if he is seeing this or maybe just because I am yelling please get under center and they do, I think it is happening more often then it does.

That works? Can you please yell at the TV every time our CB's play 10-15 yards off on 3rd and 5? B/c I yell every time and that NEVER works for me. Haha.

Yeah, good eye...I've obviously been focused on the WR's and WR route-trees. I wonder if anyone has noticed this more over in the CK thread...
  • dwett
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 640
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by dwett:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by dwett:
First off loved the conversation. Great info. Just curious and I am may be wrong, but over the last two weeks we seem to be running more under center. Do you think they are working to adjust Kaep to what thl408 was stating. He did run all shotgun in college and it may be Harbaugh and Roman are working on this in practice but slowing installing it into the game plan.

Yeah, good stuff all around...safe to say we ALL covered the bases here from offensive philosophy to eye-field details. Haha.

I genuinely can't answer this one but it wouldn't take much to review the games to see more of this noted trend (good eye). I know this coaching staff is big on "installation packages" and this may be one of those elements.
To be honest the main reason I was looking at it is because I feel Frank it a better RB with the QB under center which is going back to the power running game you guys talked about. Never thought of it as a transition for Kaep to get more of a feel under center since he has been in shot gun most of his career. Would open up the playbook and perhaps get us into a more WCO feel the second half of the year.


I know Marvin49 does his weekly reviews. Not sure if he is seeing this or maybe just because I am yelling please get under center and they do, I think it is happening more often then it does.

That works? Can you please yell at the TV every time our CB's play 10-15 yards off on 3rd and 5? B/c I yell every time and that NEVER works for me. Haha.

Yeah, good eye...I've obviously been focused on the WR's and WR route-trees. I wonder if anyone has noticed this more over in the CK thread...

I have the same issue so it must just work on the offense. and as I stated earlier only in my mind. This is why I love the bud light commercials. Fans doing what ever they can to produce positive results.
  • GORO
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Originally posted by NCommand:
Sorry, should have clarified better...under Alex's tenure, many of the complaints were slow starts to games, not pulling the trigger, taking sacks, not seeing wide open receivers, poor 1st and 3rd down conversions, unimaginative route trees, needing to pass under 3 seconds, etc.

Basically, we're starting to see that much of this is coming down to the type of offense we installed here and coaching as being the common denominator under two very different QB's...but we are having the same results/concerns.

I certainly agreed with the QB switch given CK's upside and how his mobility fits better into this type of offense (if that targeted receiver is covered, CK can burn you better with his mobility and legs than Alex; he's also a better deeper threat and better at ad libbing). I certainly don't want to get into a QB debate b/c we all know each other's strengths/weaknesses like the back of our hands but to me, the type of offense we run and coaching of both QB's within it, appear to be identical at this juncture.


I agree with everything you are saying and believe that this is a good thing like last Sunday when VD got wide open and a bad thing when a good defensive team with a good coach understands how the 49ers work. Ted Ginn was never sent out on isolation deep routes now he is in Carolina and doing these things.
If there is one negative with our coaches it is that they all have large egos and believe their way is the best way. Which works with the right personnel but when that personnel starts to change or gets injured they are not quick to adapt... they look at a guy like KW who is our second best practice WR and say "ok he is our #2" and line him up on the outside when he is a much better suited to the slot. Or they look at a great slot guy like Collie and say, well he cant play the outside so he is expendable. Just seems like they have some very rigid ideologies of personnel and the plays they want to run.

LMJ has the best hands of any of our running backs but instead of sending him out like NO does with Sproles they stick to trying to run up the middle with him, its like they only change their thinking once every other option of their philosophy has been exhausted, and then sh*t starts to work again. Its hard to complain because we are a great team but their does seem to be so much untapped potential that our coaches egos arent tapping into. Just like Fangios love affair with vets cost us Cooper, the reluctance to try anything new is on both sides of the ball.