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2013 - Week 6: Thoughts after rewatching the game...

Originally posted by real9erfan:
Originally posted by sdniner:
Marvin love your analysis and look forward to it every week, but you're too much of a Kap homer. He SUCKS right now. There's still hope for him but right now he's not a very good qb


Kap made some very impressive throws into tight coverage yesterday. He also led an 18-play game-winning drive, which included clutch passes on 3rd down by Kap facing an all-out blitz. John Lynch mentioned that he is the 3rd highest rated QB against the blitz. But other than that, yeah I guess he "sucks."
12 of those 18 plays were runs
Originally posted by valrod33:
12 of those 18 plays were runs
Ok then its official, Kaepernick sucks.
Originally posted by valrod33:
Originally posted by real9erfan:
Originally posted by sdniner:
Marvin love your analysis and look forward to it every week, but you're too much of a Kap homer. He SUCKS right now. There's still hope for him but right now he's not a very good qb


Kap made some very impressive throws into tight coverage yesterday. He also led an 18-play game-winning drive, which included clutch passes on 3rd down by Kap facing an all-out blitz. John Lynch mentioned that he is the 3rd highest rated QB against the blitz. But other than that, yeah I guess he "sucks."
12 of those 18 plays were runs


So? I remember people here raining down praises on a QB that can manage the game even on run plays (which I agreed with by the way). Now all of a sudden when we have a good game running the football the QB has nothing to do with it.
  • dwett
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 627
Hey Marvin, This is more about the last few weeks vs only the Cardinals game. Felt you would be the one to ask. Over the last few week, really after the Colts game, I have felt I am seeing more plays run under center vs the shotgun formation.

In the "Wide receivers ARE getting open" thread, NCommand and thl408 had an interesting conversion going about the WCO and how we are not running a similar offense.

The idea of looking beyond your primary WR is key in the WCO but no as much in our playcalling. The question I had to them is are we slowly working Kaep into being more comfortable under center since he was primarily a Shot gun QB all his life.

I thought I had seen more plays under center and my first thought was it was due to the fact Frank is simply a better running back in those cases, but am wondering if we are also trying to get Kaep more comfortable under center, to open our playbook up with some WCO philosophies.

Just wanted to get your thoughts on what you are seeing and if I am wrong in feeling we have gone under center more often the last two weeks.
Originally posted by dwett:
Hey Marvin, This is more about the last few weeks vs only the Cardinals game. Felt you would be the one to ask. Over the last few week, really after the Colts game, I have felt I am seeing more plays run under center vs the shotgun formation.

In the "Wide receivers ARE getting open" thread, NCommand and thl408 had an interesting conversion going about the WCO and how we are not running a similar offense.

The idea of looking beyond your primary WR is key in the WCO but no as much in our playcalling. The question I had to them is are we slowly working Kaep into being more comfortable under center since he was primarily a Shot gun QB all his life.

I thought I had seen more plays under center and my first thought was it was due to the fact Frank is simply a better running back in those cases, but am wondering if we are also trying to get Kaep more comfortable under center, to open our playbook up with some WCO philosophies.

Just wanted to get your thoughts on what you are seeing and if I am wrong in feeling we have gone under center more often the last two weeks.

this also comes with experience. Teams are forcing kap to move to the second read but also some plays are designed with only one read so we kinda get screwed on those, Im sure part of it is simply expecting the receiver to beat the defender and they tried to two weeks and the receivers simply werent getting it done. for a sport as complicated as football, its always a combination of stuff that leads to issues.
Originally posted by dwett:
Hey Marvin, This is more about the last few weeks vs only the Cardinals game. Felt you would be the one to ask. Over the last few week, really after the Colts game, I have felt I am seeing more plays run under center vs the shotgun formation.

In the "Wide receivers ARE getting open" thread, NCommand and thl408 had an interesting conversion going about the WCO and how we are not running a similar offense.

The idea of looking beyond your primary WR is key in the WCO but no as much in our playcalling. The question I had to them is are we slowly working Kaep into being more comfortable under center since he was primarily a Shot gun QB all his life.

I thought I had seen more plays under center and my first thought was it was due to the fact Frank is simply a better running back in those cases, but am wondering if we are also trying to get Kaep more comfortable under center, to open our playbook up with some WCO philosophies.

Just wanted to get your thoughts on what you are seeing and if I am wrong in feeling we have gone under center more often the last two weeks.

I know Harbaugh and Baalke have both said that we are running a WCO. ...but ARE we?
It appears your stats do not jibe with others. Maybe you are using Kaep as a starter only, not total career stats?? Kaep is killing it in the stats department. I think he has a long way to go, but his upside is huge.

http://espn.go.com/blog/san-francisco-49ers/post/_/id/1592/reflecting-on-kaepernicks-first-16-starts
Originally posted by 9erred:
It appears your stats do not jibe with others. Maybe you are using Kaep as a starter only, not total career stats?? Kaep is killing it in the stats department. I think he has a long way to go, but his upside is huge.

http://espn.go.com/blog/san-francisco-49ers/post/_/id/1592/reflecting-on-kaepernicks-first-16-starts

Marv isn't counting post season, just regular season stats.
Originally posted by sdniner:
Marvin love your analysis and look forward to it every week, but you're too much of a Kap homer. He SUCKS right now. There's still hope for him but right now he's not a very good qb

The only two games where I would say Colin "sucked" is in the Seattle and Indy games ( ). He hasn't been outstanding or spectacular (besides vs GB) but he's made some clutch plays here and there and has put the team in more positions to win rather than lose. Arizona was probably his best game since GB. His QBR and stats are still pretty good even while showing blemishes of a young inexperienced QB and having only 1 (2 if you count VD) consistently reliable WR.

But I guess if you don't throw for 400 yards, 3 TDs with 0 INTs every game, you suck smh .
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by 9erred:
It appears your stats do not jibe with others. Maybe you are using Kaep as a starter only, not total career stats?? Kaep is killing it in the stats department. I think he has a long way to go, but his upside is huge.

http://espn.go.com/blog/san-francisco-49ers/post/_/id/1592/reflecting-on-kaepernicks-first-16-starts

Marv isn't counting post season, just regular season stats.

Thank you for the clarification. I would request for Marv to use all stats, because if anything post season stats are more important than regular season stats (at least in my book). Montana always dominated in the post season while Jim Kelly and Dan Marino where a fantasy football players or regular season stats dream.
Originally posted by dwett:
Hey Marvin, This is more about the last few weeks vs only the Cardinals game. Felt you would be the one to ask. Over the last few week, really after the Colts game, I have felt I am seeing more plays run under center vs the shotgun formation.

In the "Wide receivers ARE getting open" thread, NCommand and thl408 had an interesting conversion going about the WCO and how we are not running a similar offense.

The idea of looking beyond your primary WR is key in the WCO but no as much in our playcalling. The question I had to them is are we slowly working Kaep into being more comfortable under center since he was primarily a Shot gun QB all his life.

I thought I had seen more plays under center and my first thought was it was due to the fact Frank is simply a better running back in those cases, but am wondering if we are also trying to get Kaep more comfortable under center, to open our playbook up with some WCO philosophies.

Just wanted to get your thoughts on what you are seeing and if I am wrong in feeling we have gone under center more often the last two weeks.


Well...just my 2 cents...saying the 49ers don't run a true WCO is both correct and incorrect. NOBODY runs the true WCO as it existed with Walsh, but EVERYONE runs aspects of it. Its also about more than just the plays on the field...its about how you adjust, how you practice...everything.

Also, the 49ers seem to do different things from week to week, so saying what we are or are not doing is constantly changing.

My personal opinion is that Kap is trusting his arm a bit to much by forcing the ball to his first read even if he is barely open and is missing some secondary reads because of it. PLayers aren't really getting open in terms of their progressions...IE...Vernon Davis might be breaking wide open down the field but if he's the 3rd read Kap isn't going to get to him if he sees the 1st or second open.

Its been drummed into everyones heads that Boldin is open when he isn't open and I kinda think Kap has taken that too much to heart and will throw to him even with defenders all over him. If he's the first read, Kap is going to throw that ball into tight coverage and never even get to a second read that might be more open. He can't see all receivers at all times.

I'm not saying this isn't Kaps fault BTW...just saying he needs to work through this and a primary receiver who creates more separation (like Crab) could do wonders for 2 reasons...

1) He will get separation more often
2) Will be easier to recognize if Kap needs to move to the second read.

Just my 2 cents.
[ Edited by Marvin49 on Oct 16, 2013 at 9:29 AM ]
Originally posted by 9erred:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by 9erred:
It appears your stats do not jibe with others. Maybe you are using Kaep as a starter only, not total career stats?? Kaep is killing it in the stats department. I think he has a long way to go, but his upside is huge.

http://espn.go.com/blog/san-francisco-49ers/post/_/id/1592/reflecting-on-kaepernicks-first-16-starts

Marv isn't counting post season, just regular season stats.

Thank you for the clarification. I would request for Marv to use all stats, because if anything post season stats are more important than regular season stats (at least in my book). Montana always dominated in the post season while Jim Kelly and Dan Marino where a fantasy football players or regular season stats dream.


Yeah...I only removed the postseason because I wanted a regular season statline. No worries. His numbers are actually probably going to be much better through 16 starts than through 16 regular season starts because he was so good in the playoffs last year.
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by 49ersking:
Boldin had a huge game in week 1. Davis had a huge game in week 6. It looks like for our passing game to succeed, one of these two should be having a huge game. I'm not sure if that is sustainable.
I also noticed that Seatte is primarily relying on Lynch, more and more each game. The Cardinals should stop this one guy, and let's see if Seattle can still win this.

It's NOT sustainable...which is why the 49ers need to add a WR or hope for Manningham and Crabtree to lesten the load on Anquan and Vernon.

Right on Marvin49. They will go no where in the playoffs for sure and no chance against Seattle or the Saints.
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by dwett:
Hey Marvin, This is more about the last few weeks vs only the Cardinals game. Felt you would be the one to ask. Over the last few week, really after the Colts game, I have felt I am seeing more plays run under center vs the shotgun formation.

In the "Wide receivers ARE getting open" thread, NCommand and thl408 had an interesting conversion going about the WCO and how we are not running a similar offense.

The idea of looking beyond your primary WR is key in the WCO but no as much in our playcalling. The question I had to them is are we slowly working Kaep into being more comfortable under center since he was primarily a Shot gun QB all his life.

I thought I had seen more plays under center and my first thought was it was due to the fact Frank is simply a better running back in those cases, but am wondering if we are also trying to get Kaep more comfortable under center, to open our playbook up with some WCO philosophies.

Just wanted to get your thoughts on what you are seeing and if I am wrong in feeling we have gone under center more often the last two weeks.


Well...just my 2 cents...saying the 49ers don't run a true WCO is both correct and incorrect. NOBODY runs the true WCO as it existed with Walsh, but EVERYONE runs aspects of it. Its also about more than just the plays on the field...its about how you adjust, how you practice...everything.

Also, the 49ers seem to do different things from week to week, so saying what we are or are not doing is constantly changing.

My personal opinion is that Kap is trusting his arm a bit to much by forcing the ball to his first read even if he is barely open and is missing some secondary reads because of it. PLayers aren't really getting open in terms of their progressions...IE...Vernon Davis might be breaking wide open down the field but if he's the 3rd read Kap isn't going to get to him if he sees the 1st or second open.

Its been drummed into everyones heads that Boldin is open when he isn't open and I kinda think Kap has taken that too much to heart and will throw to him even with defenders all over him. If he's the first read, Kap is going to throw that ball into tight coverage and never even get to a second read that might be more open. He can't see all receivers at all times.

I'm not saying this isn't Kaps fault BTW...just saying he needs to work through this and a primary receiver who creates more separation (like Crab) could do wonders for 2 reasons...

1) He will get separation more often
2) Will be easier to recognize if Kap needs to move to the second read.

Just my 2 cents.

The WCO has evolved since Walsh. LBs are much more athletic now and can cover RBs out of the backfield if the RB isn't a good route runner/receiver. Compared to 80's LBs who were mainly run stoppers, hard nosed tacklers. So now RBs get lined up in the slot to get them closer to the line of scrimmage. Point is, you are right in that no one runs the Walsh WCO as it was in the late 80s. But this 49ers team, as it has opened the season, runs very minimal amounts of WCO concepts. Not that there is anything wrong with this, as long as touchdowns get scored. To me, the MO of a WCO passing attack is ball control. To do this, you need:

- timing routes that all feed off one another allowing the QB to flow sequentially and systematically in his reads
- high percentage short passes that hit the pass catcher in stride so he can go for RAC yardage
- ability to beat the blitz using additional route runners, not additional blockers
- hot read on every pass play

The 49ers do little to none of this throughout the course of a game in their passing attack. They do use a lot of motion to set up formation advantages. That is indeed WCO rooted.
Originally posted by thl408:
The WCO has evolved since Walsh. LBs are much more athletic now and can cover RBs out of the backfield if the RB isn't a good route runner/receiver. Compared to 80's LBs who were mainly run stoppers, hard nosed tacklers. So now RBs get lined up in the slot to get them closer to the line of scrimmage. Point is, you are right in that no one runs the Walsh WCO as it was in the late 80s. But this 49ers team, as it has opened the season, runs very minimal amounts of WCO concepts. Not that there is anything wrong with this, as long as touchdowns get scored. To me, the MO of a WCO passing attack is ball control. To do this, you need:

- timing routes that all feed off one another allowing the QB to flow sequentially and systematically in his reads
- high percentage short passes that hit the pass catcher in stride so he can go for RAC yardage
- ability to beat the blitz using additional route runners, not additional blockers
- hot read on every pass play

The 49ers do little to none of this throughout the course of a game in their passing attack. They do use a lot of motion to set up formation advantages. That is indeed WCO rooted.


The Tampa 2 became the elixir to the WCO. That's how the true evolution of it started as far as I saw. The 3-4 was good against it but not as effective as the Tampa 2.