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are we underutilizing our players? the state of the franchise...

Originally posted by cciowa:
he calls one good game or calls a nice 18 play drive and everyone wants to drink his bathwater.. that s**t does not make up for all of the times he f**ks up,, fake toss pitch to ginn vs rams, total f**kup in the colts game etc etc.

This, he's up and he's down and it always seems like he's trying to be the smartest guy in the room when just being precise and methodical would get it done. No flow or rhythm to his playcalling, he'll make one great playcall and then a potato playcall right after, I truly feel the potential of this offense is being wasted by Roman.
Originally posted by trellblaze:
Originally posted by cciowa:
i was hoping roman would be fired after the game which did not happen. i then was hoping he would be fired after the walking dead was over which did not happen. I then was hoping i would wake up this morning and he would be fired which did not happen. life is a b***h and then you die despite the best "efforts" of roman, i believe our state of the franchise is solid, we won three in a row which we could not do last year, you hope more hurt guys will be back and just continue to get better. the start of the game settling for field goals upset me greatly but we closed out the game like good teams do and never let the cards get over the hump.

I think you're a bit hard on Roman. He's a PURE matchup play caller, which sometimes works to his disadvantage. His way is to call the perfect play to exploit the perfect vs maximizing the exploiters greatest strengths. When that works, it's genius. When it doesn't, well we know how that looks.

His run plays are pure genius. It amazes me how people around here see "oh great...another stupid run up the middle". Those people don't understand blocking schemes and don't see the genius in the schemes that Roman designs. The failed runs up the middle is either the result of a GREAT defensive play by the defensive interior or a total missed blocking assignment.

I mean seriously, almost every Frank Gore 10+ yard play comes from a wham block. How many different ways can you run ONE BLOCKING scheme? Apparently Roman has 1000 different ways. If you don't see the genius in that, then I just can't agree. Our run plays are seriously works of art. Watch them closely during a game one sunday. You'll see it.

The thing that frustrates me is always trying to call the perfect play. I think that's when we get into trouble. Sometimes you need to just call a damn play that works and forget about the perfect chess move. Sometimes you have to have a little bit of Singletary in you and force your will upon the opponent.

But yea, that's our offensive philosophy in a nutshell. Get the best matchup you can possibly get in relation to the down/distance/situation. The big pass to Vernon Davis with Kilgor playing WR is a PERFECT example. Kilgor's ONLY purpose was to confuse and freeze the coverage on that side of the field which left Vernon running the perfect route agains the perfect defender. It worked out perfectly. That's what Romans calls are all about. To put the defense in a situation in which it simply cannot win. Period. Sometimes it works, sometimes it's a 10 lb water balloon.

To add to this:

This is also probably the main reason people incorrectly believe that Kaepernick is a one-read QB. A lot of the play calls are designed for everyone on the field to get one person open. That means there's only one read to make, which is: "Are the defenders in the position that this play was designed to put them in?" If the read is "yes", then you pull the trigger. At that point, it's up to the player to make the play or not.

When the coaches say things like "we gotta find a way to get the ball into Vernon's hands" that's the kind of stuff they're talking about. You can't simply rely on basic good old fashioned route running when the Defense's M.O. is to take that player out of the game. You have to call plays that are designed to give the defense no choice but to let their guy match his athleticism with our guy. Whoever wins wins. Wouldn't you like Davis's chances in most of those match ups? Roman certainly does. That's why it often SEEMS like Kaepernick is looking only to throw at Davis. Actually in a sense, he is, because the play is sometimes designed for just that to happen.
and it should be a nightmare to game plan for us.. keep the power runs but we need to get hunter involved more.. all he does is score td's with limited touches..

stop letting anthony dixon play...period. all those plays should go to ether hunter or james... we don't even use james.. i could see if we even just used him for returns which he is excellent at.. but we don't even do that and i don't understand why.. why do we have this explosive play maker sitting on the bench and not even getting any snaps? it doesn't make sense. teams should be worried about 3rb's and 2 te's and at least 1 wr...could be 2 if baldwin could get in, in the red zone.

it's completely possible to run the ball and get all of these people involved in the game every week... nobody can convince me otherwise.

and he went back to the plays that don't work in the red zone the 1st 2 possessions thankfully they didn't cause he was starting to outcoach himself again.

later on in the red zone we went to what we should do each time...running the ball...because it works...

we should always come out running it gets the o line involved and into the game.. and they pass protect better after they've hit someone that is proven.
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 25,465
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
This, he's up and he's down and it always seems like he's trying to be the smartest guy in the room when just being precise and methodical would get it done. No flow or rhythm to his playcalling, he'll make one great playcall and then a potato playcall right after, I truly feel the potential of this offense is being wasted by Roman.

the last sentence of phoenix should be carved on stone and preserved for generations to come because i think he is 1000000 per cent spot on
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by trellblaze:
I think you're a bit hard on Roman. He's a PURE matchup play caller, which sometimes works to his disadvantage. His way is to call the perfect play to exploit the perfect vs maximizing the exploiters greatest strengths. When that works, it's genius. When it doesn't, well we know how that looks.

His run plays are pure genius. It amazes me how people around here see "oh great...another stupid run up the middle". Those people don't understand blocking schemes and don't see the genius in the schemes that Roman designs. The failed runs up the middle is either the result of a GREAT defensive play by the defensive interior or a total missed blocking assignment.

I mean seriously, almost every Frank Gore 10+ yard play comes from a wham block. How many different ways can you run ONE BLOCKING scheme? Apparently Roman has 1000 different ways. If you don't see the genius in that, then I just can't agree. Our run plays are seriously works of art. Watch them closely during a game one sunday. You'll see it.

The thing that frustrates me is always trying to call the perfect play. I think that's when we get into trouble. Sometimes you need to just call a damn play that works and forget about the perfect chess move. Sometimes you have to have a little bit of Singletary in you and force your will upon the opponent.

But yea, that's our offensive philosophy in a nutshell. Get the best matchup you can possibly get in relation to the down/distance/situation. The big pass to Vernon Davis with Kilgor playing WR is a PERFECT example. Kilgor's ONLY purpose was to confuse and freeze the coverage on that side of the field which left Vernon running the perfect route agains the perfect defender. It worked out perfectly. That's what Romans calls are all about. To put the defense in a situation in which it simply cannot win. Period. Sometimes it works, sometimes it's a 10 lb water balloon.
thank you , good food for thought. i hate it when he calls something that works and then once it works, he runs away from it and tries some cute annexation of f**king puerto rico play to show people that he is smarter than the game. that is why i fell off my chair when he actually, mostly, called the same winning plays 18 times in a row yesterday. thats as close to a compliment for him as you will get from me

LOL...fair enough.

I do think he outthinks himself quite often but that's something that's just gonna happen when you're dealing with this type of offense. On the bright side, just think of the plays he can dialup once he gets all the weapons back. Combination routes involving Crabtree, Boldin, and Davis. You're going to get the matchup you want SOMEWHERE on the field.
Originally posted by trellblaze:
Originally posted by trellblaze:
Originally posted by cciowa:
i was hoping roman would be fired after the game which did not happen. i then was hoping he would be fired after the walking dead was over which did not happen. I then was hoping i would wake up this morning and he would be fired which did not happen. life is a b***h and then you die despite the best "efforts" of roman, i believe our state of the franchise is solid, we won three in a row which we could not do last year, you hope more hurt guys will be back and just continue to get better. the start of the game settling for field goals upset me greatly but we closed out the game like good teams do and never let the cards get over the hump.

I think you're a bit hard on Roman. He's a PURE matchup play caller, which sometimes works to his disadvantage. His way is to call the perfect play to exploit the perfect vs maximizing the exploiters greatest strengths. When that works, it's genius. When it doesn't, well we know how that looks.

His run plays are pure genius. It amazes me how people around here see "oh great...another stupid run up the middle". Those people don't understand blocking schemes and don't see the genius in the schemes that Roman designs. The failed runs up the middle is either the result of a GREAT defensive play by the defensive interior or a total missed blocking assignment.

I mean seriously, almost every Frank Gore 10+ yard play comes from a wham block. How many different ways can you run ONE BLOCKING scheme? Apparently Roman has 1000 different ways. If you don't see the genius in that, then I just can't agree. Our run plays are seriously works of art. Watch them closely during a game one sunday. You'll see it.

The thing that frustrates me is always trying to call the perfect play. I think that's when we get into trouble. Sometimes you need to just call a damn play that works and forget about the perfect chess move. Sometimes you have to have a little bit of Singletary in you and force your will upon the opponent.

But yea, that's our offensive philosophy in a nutshell. Get the best matchup you can possibly get in relation to the down/distance/situation. The big pass to Vernon Davis with Kilgor playing WR is a PERFECT example. Kilgor's ONLY purpose was to confuse and freeze the coverage on that side of the field which left Vernon running the perfect route agains the perfect defender. It worked out perfectly. That's what Romans calls are all about. To put the defense in a situation in which it simply cannot win. Period. Sometimes it works, sometimes it's a 10 lb water balloon.

To add to this:

This is also probably the main reason people incorrectly believe that Kaepernick is a one-read QB. A lot of the play calls are designed for everyone on the field to get one person open. That means there's only one read to make, which is: "Are the defenders in the position that this play was designed to put them in?" If the read is "yes", then you pull the trigger. At that point, it's up to the player to make the play or not.

When the coaches say things like "we gotta find a way to get the ball into Vernon's hands" that's the kind of stuff they're talking about. You can't simply rely on basic good old fashioned route running when the Defense's M.O. is to take that player out of the game. You have to call plays that are designed to give the defense no choice but to let their guy match his athleticism with our guy. Whoever wins wins. Wouldn't you like Davis's chances in most of those match ups? Roman certainly does. That's why it often SEEMS like Kaepernick is looking only to throw at Davis. Actually in a sense, he is, because the play is sometimes designed for just that to happen.

Way to go Marvin! Look at the great conversations that are coming out b/c of your starter-post.

Love this conversation...I could not agree more with this topic and responses, in general. I am very close, even found myself yelling it outloud yesterday, saying what Pheonix said. I'm calmer now though but it might be the elephant in MY room at this junction. Why? B/c win or lose, it always seems to come back to Roman who is symbolic of the 30 or so people who put the original game plan together. He is referred too as the "creative" genius but it still appears to me that the real issue is in the offensive philosophy - it's funamental makeup. Trell is spot on re: our passing offense designed to get one receiver the ball (and pray it's open). His run blocking scheme, no question, are stellar...fantastic. But Roman running BOTH on game day continues to mean slow starts, no rhythm for the QB, WR's, RB's or even the OL, feels "fragmented," constantly getting 0 or negative yards on 1st downs, personnel in wrong places at wrong times, head-scratchers, no returns to successful plays in the passing game (esp.), etc.

In short, there is something fundamentlly wrong with this offense and Roman himself on game day and we clearly can see the exact same patterns every game and over time now. In my ideal world, this man would be the offensive assistant (not Mangini) and helping to design the running game and be that extra keen eye up in the booth while we hire a real WCO OC and QB coach. We fuse the two together and utilize and maximize all of our talent...b/c we have a TON.

It's much more than just, "WR's just aren't getting separation" IMHO.
[ Edited by NCommand on Oct 14, 2013 at 11:14 AM ]
Originally posted by lamontb:
Originally posted by kazak13:
Originally posted by lamontb:
Moore isn't good
Hawkins isn't good
I agree with the screens but everytime they run them their timing is off
They have a lot talent hurt sitting on the bench, but not suited up on the bench

So you would rather have McDonald. Bruce Miller and even our OL Killgore ahead of Moore? Moore played real good during the pre-season on first team.. they gotta give them a chance.. I seen what Kyle Williams can do and thats about nothing.. Cant wait for Patton to step up. they dont even give them a chance.. how do you give a receiver a chance to go in rhythm when you got TE. FB and OL ahead of them on the depth chart.. and how many times do they open things up with 3 WR's..

Kilgore was just a decoy. You act like he's playing in the slot every down. And a lot of players look good in pre season going up against srcubs and vets that aren't playing hard. They don't have 3 good wrs on the roster to open it up.
Moore hardly saw the field in pre-season.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by trellblaze:
Originally posted by trellblaze:
Originally posted by cciowa:
i was hoping roman would be fired after the game which did not happen. i then was hoping he would be fired after the walking dead was over which did not happen. I then was hoping i would wake up this morning and he would be fired which did not happen. life is a b***h and then you die despite the best "efforts" of roman, i believe our state of the franchise is solid, we won three in a row which we could not do last year, you hope more hurt guys will be back and just continue to get better. the start of the game settling for field goals upset me greatly but we closed out the game like good teams do and never let the cards get over the hump.

I think you're a bit hard on Roman. He's a PURE matchup play caller, which sometimes works to his disadvantage. His way is to call the perfect play to exploit the perfect vs maximizing the exploiters greatest strengths. When that works, it's genius. When it doesn't, well we know how that looks.

His run plays are pure genius. It amazes me how people around here see "oh great...another stupid run up the middle". Those people don't understand blocking schemes and don't see the genius in the schemes that Roman designs. The failed runs up the middle is either the result of a GREAT defensive play by the defensive interior or a total missed blocking assignment.

I mean seriously, almost every Frank Gore 10+ yard play comes from a wham block. How many different ways can you run ONE BLOCKING scheme? Apparently Roman has 1000 different ways. If you don't see the genius in that, then I just can't agree. Our run plays are seriously works of art. Watch them closely during a game one sunday. You'll see it.

The thing that frustrates me is always trying to call the perfect play. I think that's when we get into trouble. Sometimes you need to just call a damn play that works and forget about the perfect chess move. Sometimes you have to have a little bit of Singletary in you and force your will upon the opponent.

But yea, that's our offensive philosophy in a nutshell. Get the best matchup you can possibly get in relation to the down/distance/situation. The big pass to Vernon Davis with Kilgor playing WR is a PERFECT example. Kilgor's ONLY purpose was to confuse and freeze the coverage on that side of the field which left Vernon running the perfect route agains the perfect defender. It worked out perfectly. That's what Romans calls are all about. To put the defense in a situation in which it simply cannot win. Period. Sometimes it works, sometimes it's a 10 lb water balloon.

To add to this:

This is also probably the main reason people incorrectly believe that Kaepernick is a one-read QB. A lot of the play calls are designed for everyone on the field to get one person open. That means there's only one read to make, which is: "Are the defenders in the position that this play was designed to put them in?" If the read is "yes", then you pull the trigger. At that point, it's up to the player to make the play or not.

When the coaches say things like "we gotta find a way to get the ball into Vernon's hands" that's the kind of stuff they're talking about. You can't simply rely on basic good old fashioned route running when the Defense's M.O. is to take that player out of the game. You have to call plays that are designed to give the defense no choice but to let their guy match his athleticism with our guy. Whoever wins wins. Wouldn't you like Davis's chances in most of those match ups? Roman certainly does. That's why it often SEEMS like Kaepernick is looking only to throw at Davis. Actually in a sense, he is, because the play is sometimes designed for just that to happen.

Way to go Marvin! Look at the great conversations that are coming out b/c of your starter-post.

Love this conversation...I could not agree more with this topic and responses, in general. I am very close, even found myself yelling it outloud yesterday, saying what Pheonix said. I'm calmer now though but it might be the elephant in MY room at this junction. Why? B/c win or lose, it always seems to come back to Roman who is symbolic of the 30 or so people who put the original game plan together. He is referred too as the "creative" genius but it still appears to me that the real issue is in the offensive philosophy - it's funamental makeup. Trell is spot on re: our passing offense designed to get one receiver the ball (and pray it's open). His run blocking scheme, no question, are stellar...fantastic. But Roman running BOTH on game day continues to mean slow starts, no rhythm for the QB, WR's, RB's or even the OL, feels "fragmented," constantly getting 0 or negative yards on 1st downs, personnel in wrong places at wrong times, head-scratchers, no returns to successful plays in the passing game (esp.), etc.

In short, there is something fundamentlly wrong with this offense and Roman himself on game day and we clearly can see the exact same patterns every game and over time now. In my ideal world, this man would be the offensive assistant (not Mangini) and helping to design the running game and be that extra keen eye up in the booth while we hire a real WCO OC and QB coach. We fuse the two together and utilize and maximize all of our talent...b/c we have a TON.

It's much more than just, "WR's just aren't getting separation" IMHO.

This might not be a bad idea. Likelihood = 0%, though. LOL

Thanks for the compliments, btw.
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 25,465
Originally posted by trellblaze:
LOL...fair enough.

I do think he outthinks himself quite often but that's something that's just gonna happen when you're dealing with this type of offense. On the bright side, just think of the plays he can dialup once he gets all the weapons back. Combination routes involving Crabtree, Boldin, and Davis. You're going to get the matchup you want SOMEWHERE on the field.
i know i should be,, and trust me I am,,, happy with three wins in a row and 30 points in a row three times ,, but he still bugs me i just hope that, when those guys get back ,,,, he does not start acting like the f**king nutty professor with igor the hunchback in the lab and start drawing up fake toss pitch diamond and one end arounds i know we will have other and better options when mario comes back and hopefully crabs but he better not forget what we do best
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by trellblaze:
LOL...fair enough.

I do think he outthinks himself quite often but that's something that's just gonna happen when you're dealing with this type of offense. On the bright side, just think of the plays he can dialup once he gets all the weapons back. Combination routes involving Crabtree, Boldin, and Davis. You're going to get the matchup you want SOMEWHERE on the field.
i know i should be,, and trust me I am,,, happy with three wins in a row and 30 points in a row three times ,, but he still bugs me i just hope that, when those guys get back ,,,, he does not start acting like the f**king nutty professor with igor the hunchback in the lab and start drawing up fake toss pitch diamond and one end arounds i know we will have other and better options when mario comes back and hopefully crabs but he better not forget what we do best

The reality is that he probably will do all those things. If they all happen to work, though, no-one will notice. In that scenario it works out for all of us.
trade LMJ + draft pick for WR help.
Originally posted by trellblaze:
This might not be a bad idea. Likelihood = 0%, though. LOL

Thanks for the compliments, btw.

100% agree. Hahaha

N/p!
Originally posted by susweel:
trade LMJ + draft pick for WR help.

I keep seeing this suggestion, but what do we do with said player when Crabtree returns - short and long term? We have to re-sign Crabtree at some point and we currently have about 950,000 of cap room. Which brings up another point: can we even afford the player we trade for?

We've got a lot of players on their contract year right now. A big time trade would seriously effect our current and future roster moves quite a bit.

There's a reason Baldwin was the guy selected for the Jenkins trade. Similar risk/reward situation AND similar salary cap figures and contracts.

Our WR situation is bad but not dire enough to wreck the long term roster plan. Especially when we have talented WRs on the PUP list already.
Originally posted by susweel:
trade LMJ + draft pick for WR help.

use lmh as wr help in the screen and return part of the game. save draft pick for something else. especially considering we have 2 wr's coming back and apparently as complex as our system is to learn. makes no sense to do it now.
Originally posted by susweel:
trade LMJ + draft pick for WR help.


My thoughts exactly!