Can someone explain this to me??

Originally posted by Rascal:

Originally posted by Rsrkshn:
Good post.

On a general note. What's puzzling is how the Niners plan for stocking the pipeline with developmental players. Isn't that what the draft is for? Especially the later rounds. Why even draft a position if there is no chance that you're going to keep a player no matter how much he shines or exceeds expectations? What exactly is the point? Draft other positons that have a chance of sticking.

Specifically, I refer to Morris, Gray and Daniels (there are probably others). Cam Johnson too, although he was traded so they at least got something for him - even though it was only a chance at picking another marginal player, who would buck odds to make the team. As for the others - I would argue that they exceeded expectations insomuch as they showed pretty evidently that they could play in this league and at a higher level than one would expect from a player drafted where they were. Still they were cut and the Niners retained other marginal veterans who have pretty much hit their ceiling and look average at best. So why why were these guys drafted in the first place, if there wasn't room for a player at their positon to develop? ( I happen to think that they needed to keep those guys for what they showed).

Some fans snicker when others question the teams moves, suggesting that no outsider should ever second guess the team's moves. But those FO/coaching guys are definitely not infallible. I've pretty much sided with the team's personnel choices in past years. This year, however, I confess to some discomfort and I have yet to say "Wow" in a good way to any move that they've made so far.

For instance, I'm pretty disgruntled with their handling of their WR situation. From the beginning of training camp. The Niners have two of the biggest scrubs on their roster who have FOR YEARS demonstrated that they are mediocre. Yet they doggedly stick to them, even as their #2 at times. Perhaps after they lose this weekend's game they will do something about it. But it's getting pretty late in the day for that.

Let's see.

Great post.

I find the post somewhat interesting and a little confusing, but I am not sure why anyone who call it great.

Who exactly are the two wide receivers that are the biggest scrubs on their roster who have FOR YEARS demonstrated that they are mediocre. Yet they doggedly stick to them, even as their #2.

There are seven wide receivers on our roster and only one of them has been our roster FOR YEARS--Kyle Williams.

I will concede that Williams has been mediocre since he was drafted in 2010, but he is the only wide receiver on the 53-man roster who has been with the team for years. Even though I consider him mediocre, I am not sure that he merits being considered a biggest scrub.

| am still trying to figure out who the second biggest scrub is that has been on the roster for years.

Perhaps, the idea put forward is correct but the post is just poorly worded. I do think this lack of clarity on the wide receivers takes away from the greatness of the post.

Perhaps, the apparent prediction that the 49ers will lose the game because of our disgruntling handling of our wide receiver situation makes this a great post.

Like I said, the post is interesting and some what confusing, but I do definitely do not consider it great.

But, hey that is just my opinion and I do recognize that my opinion might not mean very much. But, hey everyone is entitled to his own opinion.

Originally posted by buck:
I find the post somewhat interesting and a little confusing, but I am not sure why anyone who call it great.

Who exactly are the two wide receivers that are the biggest scrubs on their roster who have FOR YEARS demonstrated that they are mediocre. Yet they doggedly stick to them, even as their #2.

There are seven wide receivers on our roster and only one of them has been our roster FOR YEARS--Kyle Williams.

I will concede that Williams has been mediocre since he was drafted in 2010, but he is the only wide receiver on the 53-man roster who has been with the team for years. Even though I consider him mediocre, I am not sure that he merits being considered a biggest scrub.

| am still trying to figure out who the second biggest scrub is that has been on the roster for years.

Perhaps, the idea put forward is correct but the post is just poorly worded. I do think this lack of clarity on the wide receivers takes away from the greatness of the post.

Perhaps, the apparent prediction that the 49ers will lose the game because of our disgruntling handling of our wide receiver situation makes this a great post.

Like I said, the post is interesting and some what confusing, but I do definitely do not consider it great.

But, hey that is just my opinion and I do recognize that my opinion might not mean very much. But, hey everyone is entitled to his own opinion.

Your opinion is very important to me Buck, just remember, you're good enough, you're smart enough and doggone it, people like you.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Your opinion is very important to me Buck, just remember, you're good enough, you're smart enough and doggone it, people like you.

Believe me, there are some who consider my posts no more than annoying--and that is probably an understatement.

Originally posted by AB81Rules:

Originally posted by Afrikan:
you have to ask yourself.... would Seattle have made room on their roster for Colt McCoy if we released him? Did they even attempt to bring in Skeleton?

why is it that Seattle and other teams wants our "trash" as soon as they are available, where as we want the rest of the NFL's "trash" in McCoy and someone like Skeleton who was quite available for some time.

just thoughts really. I mean, why didn't we sign Skeleton weeks ago...he could've been more ready with our offense, than he is going to be this Sunday...if we needed him.

just confusing all around.

I dont think he was wanted as bad, all other 30 teams passed him up in waiver wire. Seattle did in spite of us.

I still dont get the hate, Daniels is a PROJECT QB. He didnt fit anymore. He is a read option, teams know that now. Kap wont run,it is plain stupid to base an offense on a read option. dont run your QB in the nfl. College, fine, you have like 4 QBs dressed every week. 46 men in NFL, nearly 80 in College.

Gray was also a project. Cooper was a low round guy, so he got cut, big deal. The team thought Brock was better. I didnt, but who am I to judge them. People need to realize the cap plays a HUGE impact on these thing, look at Jennings and Haralson, couldn't afford their salaries. Jennings isnt even on a roster. Haralson has been average with New Orleans. Cam hasnt played much for INDY, and he played GOOD against 3rd and 4th stringers, guys in either CFL, AFL, P-Squads, or unemployed.

If anyone else over looks this they are idiots. I get sick of typing this s**t out every day to have everyone overlook it. THE CAP PLAYS A GIGANTIC PART IN THE DECISION MAKING. There I made myself perfectly clear.

my problem is with McCoy still being on the roster....and because of our reluctance to admit a mistake and move on, we have went through a few qbs and also had other players at different positions affected.

I would've rather had Seneca Wallace backing up Kap compared to McCoy or Skeleton. Some around here can still talk all the s**t they want about Wallace, but his career QBrating is one of the best around compared to other backups. And wouldn't you know it, Green Bay is totally satisfied with him...they were looking for a legit backup for Aaron. McCarthy was asked with someone of his coaching staff's ties to Josh Freeman, would they bring him in now..but he said they got exactly what they were hoping to get with Wallace. Everyone here was all like "they are using him to just for the week they play us LOLOLOL...he'll be cut the next week...LOLOL".

why didn't we keep Skeleton and his "experience"...as well as the project in Daniels....compared to proven struggling QBs in this league in both McCoy and Skeleton.

at least with Daniels..if Skeleton can't move the ball because of how defense played us, and he was kept in the pocket....well we could change our offense to one like the Falcons did with Vick...Mainly smash mouth football, then rollouts and easy PA plays.. sure it might not work out most of the time..but I'm sure we would at least be moving forward.

McCoy is athletic enough to fill both situations...but his confidence is shot, it just so obvious. Daniels is a rookie with confidence and doesn't know any better. Skeleton is tall with a strong arm....at least he brings something different.

I don't want you thinking I'm some B.J. Daniels fanboy....I actually wasn't too high on him in preseason.. I was worried about how he would pass the ball from the pocket..early on, understandably, he struggled...but in his last preseason game he seem show something.

Originally posted by Rsrkshn:
Good post.

On a general note. What's puzzling is how the Niners plan for stocking the pipeline with developmental players. Isn't that what the draft is for? Especially the later rounds. Why even draft a position if there is no chance that you're going to keep a player no matter how much he shines or exceeds expectations? What exactly is the point? Draft other positons that have a chance of sticking.

It's easy to look at cuts like Johnson, Cooper, Daniels, Haralson and and say we don't have a developmental plan because getting cut attracts the spotlight. It's equally easy to FORGET that we actually have several developmental players on the PUP list - the most popular being Carradine and Lattimore.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by trellblaze:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Good post! This is what I had in my 53 projections:

CB (6): Tarell Brown, Carlos Rogers, Nnamdi Asomugha, Perrish Cox, Tramaine Brock and Marcus Cooper; Chris Culliver & Eric Wright (PUP) - Note: Darryl Morris is playing very well and has been playing fantastic in practice. Both Cooper and Morris could very well end up pushing Brock off the roster but it's a long shot right now esp. after his INT last night. But you can't teach what Cooper/Morris have and both are very good on ST.

There was clearly room to keep both and we had paid Cox/Brock a lot in the off season (mainly for ST purposes as gunners). We could have gone cheaper here and kept both, but at least, keep one. And we ended up getting lucky keeping Morris.

The issue I have is that the same ones claiming the Cooper loss is no big deal or is just part of the process are the same ones who didn't do their research and slated him as a developmental CB for now and he future (for cheaper than Brock/Cox and with potentially, much more upside) who should have made the 53. There was clearly room for one or the other and even both if you removed Stupar or Ventrone. CB's with Morris' speed and Coopers 6'2 195 frame are very hard to find esp. in the 7th round and who showed well. The Chiefs/Hawks did their research and many of our own fans see these moves as no big deal.

We shall see...

I, like you, had kept track of both Morris and Cooper. Both seemed intriguing but I was more interested in Morris, personally. Did you see his college film? Never mind his speed - which is amazing - but this guy takes FLAWLESS angles on tackles and when he gets there he's very aggressive. My only concern is his size. He would get DESTROYED by Megatron or Brandon Marshall but I still think he may have been one of the most athletic corners in the draft. Seriously man, if you haven't seen his tackling angles, go look up some highlights. What I couldn't quite figure out is where he would fit in because of his size.

I wasn't thrilled about losing a big corner like Cooper but I wasn't devastated.

For some reason Ventrone has a pretty bad rap around here. I guess people must not've paid attention to our special teams against the Rams. Ventrone made more than one big play and at least one good tackle on coverage. At one point even Mayock commented "...just follow the hair" referring to Ventrone flying to the ball consistently. We all saw what happened to our ST last season when we neglected it. We definitely could've used a Ventrone tackle during the Super Bowl last year...

So happy I wasnt alone in this one...would have loved to consult with you during the 53-man projections. Yes, yes and YES, Morris looks like a serious find as well. What was interesting is that we played him outside in the pre season and he did very well. But where "I" would love to see this guy (mainly b/c of his height) is in theslot where most "niftier" WR's are placed (Harvin, Collie, Welkers, etc.). Morris seems lightning quick AND fast. If he continues to develop his technique, look out. He's the type of DB where is an outside guy loses containment or gets beat, he can motor over to make a play. A perfect example of this is to picture the Superbowl where Flacco Hail-Mary'd it up to Jones who caught it, fell backwards, had time to get up, make a move and STILL make it into the EZ before anyone else in our entire secondary could even get into screen. Pathetic.

Cooper, to me, just had a calmness, maturity that is hard to describe when I watched him play...just very solid and he appeared to have tremendous upside and certainly, the tangibles we have been lacking for years now (size at the CB position). I thought he could become a geat understudy to Nnamdi. These are tough qualities to find in a CB and an achilles heal of ours esp. in the playoffs (bigger WR's and TE's destroying us...). I'm tired of watching our CB's in the vacinity and not make a play or in great position but too short to make one. It's a game of inches, right?

Ventrone is known to be a very good ST player but to be fair, he wasn't anything special (even poor in one game) until this past Rams game where he looked good. Hopefully he gets better and better and he better b/c his ST ability is the ONLY reason he's here now esp. after not taking a snap all pre season (he's a Seely-bone).

Good point on the possibility of Morris being sort of a "quick-slot-WR" specialist. In my opinion, none of our current packages (since Culliver went down) can really account for Welker or Harvin at their best. It would be great to see how Morrison works out against the smaller bodied lightning bolt WRs. At the very least, even if he allows them to catch all day he would probably be the only one who could run them down and prevent the run away TD.

As for the Jones play in the Super Bowl, I still can't believe that s__t happened. Lost track of the ball AND the ball carrier.

Indeed, Ventrone hasn't been great all season but perhaps it's taken him a little extra time to fit in - especially since the ST has been reshuffled several times since the season began.

Originally posted by Afrikan:
you have to ask yourself.... would Seattle have made room on their roster for Colt McCoy if we released him? Did they even attempt to bring in Skeleton?

why is it that Seattle and other teams wants our "trash" as soon as they are available, where as we want the rest of the NFL's "trash" in McCoy and someone like Skeleton who was quite available for some time.

just thoughts really. I mean, why didn't we sign Skeleton weeks ago...he could've been more ready with our offense, than he is going to be this Sunday...if we needed him.

just confusing all around.

Even though people like to think that Seattle and 49er are mirror images, they're not. Seattle's team needs are not the exact same as our own. They will not want exactly the same players we want and vise versa. Even if their needs were the same, the front offices are not and their evaluation of talent will obviously be different.

In other words, I don't see the point in evaluating our roster moves based on what Seattle or any other team does.

As for Skelton, he worked out for the 49ers in September. The 49ers asked Skelton to notify them if another team became interested in picking him up. Recently, the Titans had Skelton come in for a workout and he notified the 49ers as he was asked. The 49ers made their move right then.

for what its worth Cooper is already starting at CB (3rd) for the Chiefs. He looked really really good last week. Damn do I wish we kept him

Originally posted by buck:

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Your opinion is very important to me Buck, just remember, you're good enough, you're smart enough and doggone it, people like you.

Believe me, there are some who consider my posts no more than annoying--and that is probably an understatement.

LOL...if folks feel that way it is their loss Buck! Both of you make me mad when you disagree with my point of view...which forces me to rethink that view! Darn it!

Originally posted by midrdan:

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

A show of hands...if you have ever been paid to make personnel decisions in the NFL please speak right up.

My hand isn't raised, but to suggest that the people in the front office are the best qualified to make personnel decisions simply because they work in the front office is a circular argument. There are tons of individuals that have made glaring, no brainer mistakes with personnel and draft decisions.

I will only address the B.J. Daniels move here because, to me, it is the one that has the biggest potential to backfire. Yes, B.J. Daniels can only be evaluated on his preseason showing. The guy was a 7th round pick that was mobile, moved the offense, and made plays in the fourth quarter. There was no compelling reason to let him go in exchange for a guy like John Skelton and many reasons to keep him even if, as some posters have suggested, he was a problem in the locker room (very doubtful - the kid is a 7th round backup that had no issues of "me first" coming out of college).

1. It is way too soon to say that he won't develop into a legitimate QB. Again, he played well in the opportunities given to him.

2. Even supposing that we had no plans of ever making him the No. 2, teams value QB really high. Are you telling me that with another strong preseason showing that Daniels would not have garnered trade interest? He seemed like the perfect player to turn into a higher draft pick than what was spent on him.

3. There is little financial impact to keeping him.

4. His mobility should have been an asset in practice in preparing for other mobile QBs.

If the team is going to release a guy like that I think they owe it to the fan base to provide a little more explanation than "We really like Skelton and its unfortunate B.J. had to go, we thank him for his contributions, etc."

I'm sure the niners wanted to keep Daniels. Unfortunately they had to Gamble on losing him, in order to bring in a QB with game experience, in Skelton. 53 man roster, should be more like a 63 man roster, but it isn't. It's a strategy from manning your roster, to calling the right plays on game day.

Sure i seen Skelton play. Not too impressed with the int's. But...now he has Harbaugh, he's 6'6"", 250, and has a decent arm. Might be better than a BJ Daniels holding a clipboard.

Skelton is a very large, strong, less talented version of Roethlisberger...not impressed. That said, Harbaugh will probably turn him into another Marino!

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Skelton is a very large, strong, less talented version of Roethlisberger...not impressed. That said, Harbaugh will probably turn him into another Marino!

It would be interesting, and instructive, to be a fly on the wall in meetings of Harbaugh and the quarterbacks.

I would rather have cut McCoy then Daniels. Kap, Skelton and Daniels would have been a decent 3.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by Rsrkshn:
Good post.

On a general note. What's puzzling is how the Niners plan for stocking the pipeline with developmental players. Isn't that what the draft is for? Especially the later rounds. Why even draft a position if there is no chance that you're going to keep a player no matter how much he shines or exceeds expectations? What exactly is the point? Draft other positons that have a chance of sticking.

Specifically, I refer to Morris, Gray and Daniels (there are probably others).
Let's see.

You talk about drafting guys and then bring up two players who were UDFA's. Seriously? Look, this team has talented roster, they won't be able to keep everyone, its simple as that. Gray has done nothing for Cleveland, hasn't even taken a snap, realistically he should be on a practice squad somewhere. Daniels also belongs on a practice squad, he's extremely raw, comes from a spread-based system, and with the 49ers moving away from a read option system, Daniels had no fit on this team, the last thing they need is to develop another guy with limited experience playing behind center. Skelton is a pure pocket QB that fits what Harbaugh is trying to do on offense and is already experienced with over 20 NFL starts under his belt.

Daniels someday MIGHT be a good player, or he might be a total bust and get released by Seattle like many of the other former 49ers they've signed.....*cough* Nate Davis *cough*, I just hope if that happens, you're honest enough to come back and say "whoops, looks like Baalke knew what he was doing after all." I'm not happy with the 49ers dumping Cooper either, but people are strongly overreacting over a quarter's worth of play against a team that is struggling in every facet of the game. Let's see how these guys are doing a year from now.

All this grinding of teeth, moaning and groaning reminds me when the 49ers let Nate Palmer and Chris Owusu go last offseason...where are those guys now? Owusu is on the practice squad for Tampa Bay and Nate Palmer is selling insurance now. In the end, the 49ers won't be able to keep everyone, this is a pretty loaded roster, they'll swing and miss on players, just like every other team, like every other GM in the NFL does, it happens, that is just reality.

6th and 7th rounders are crap shoots, the vast majority of them will be out of the NFL in under 2 years or less. It is just the reality of the situation, you take a chance on a guy and if it doesn't work, you cut your losses and keep moving on.

Well I commited a "typo". Obviously I meant Cooper and not Morris. Hopefully one would surmise that because, in fact, Morris is still with the Niners. By your later reference to Cooper, I think you understood who I meant.

That said who is the other UDFA among those I named? I was under the impression that both Gray and Daniels were drafted. But please correct me if I am mistaken. I was watching the Browns/Bills game and I recall Gray being in the game, so your statement re his not taking a snap is incorrect.
BTW who is "grinding their teeth" and "moaning"? I'm simply making an observation which I believe to be valid re the interrelationship between drafting someone and stocking the developmental pipeline. I'd appreciate your not putting the shoe on the other foot. You seem to have problems with opinions that don't conform to your own.

"Honest enough", "come back and say 'Whoops'"? What in the world are you going on about? Development players are by definition speculative undertakings. Not every one works out. But they are players deemed worthy of being given a chance to develop. Primarily because they haven't to date had the opportunity to show what "they got". Anyway, in the case of Daniels, both Baalke and Harbaugh plainly stated that Daniels was someone who they strongly felt belonged in that category and that they agonized over the decision to expose him to waivers. They wanted him back; he's the classic "developmental" player. My point has already been validated by the FO. Some teams hit the jackpot, many don't. Why is it that when someone posts a remark supportive of a rookie, there's always a know-it-all that brings up Nate Davis or *insert some other rookie who got cut here*. You probably would have said the same thing about Brady; he was only a 6th rounder after all, wasn't even a full-time starter at Michigan, another Nate Davis, etc.

One of the beat writers elaborated on the theme at the QB position rather obviously: Starter, experienced back-up, dvelopmental, raw 3rd stringer. I felt that Daniels fit the 3rd stringer role rather well. He might have a very high football IQ. Like Wilson, for example. He might not, but that's what the team needs to find out. On the other hand, Skelton, could very well be good. He fits more in the experienced 2nd stringer mold. Besides there is a pretty extensive book on him; moreso than on McCoy for example. So far his football IQ has not proved stellar. Perhaps he should be the second-stringer and it MIGHT turn out that way. He does have impressive size. But size isn't everything. Personally, despite better judgement, I am excited to see what he could potentially be for the NIners. But reallistically that's just the fan in me. He's bounced around so much and been released from every team he's signed with, the chances of him suddenly excelling aren't very high. But we'll see.

Anyway, you missed the point of my post, so I'm probably wasting time here.

Originally posted by mayo49:
I would rather have cut McCoy then Daniels. Kap, Skelton and Daniels would have been a decent 3.

I think the team would've liked to do that as well. However, that would've simultaneously been a major short-term risk with long-term reward.

McCoy is the only player is the only QB on the roster right now that who:
a) knows our playbook, and,
b) has in-game NFL experience.

Skelton has NFL experience, but knows nothing about our playbook; Daniels has a grasp on the playbook, but has no NFL experience (aside from preseason). If Kap were to have went down in the next few weeks, they would've been majorly screwed (then again, if Kap goes down they're probably screwed no matter what). In that sense, it would've been a major short-term risk.

It's clear as day the front office has no confidence in McCoy though. Forced him to renegotiate, and now they brought in Skelton. But to me that had to have been the thought process of Baalke and Harbaugh; if McCoy were cut and Kap were hurt, a team with a still-very-strong roster would've been absolutely screwed.

With the route they took, they now have the short-term safety net in McCoy (even if he sucks, he still has familiarity with how to run our offense), while being able to spend the coming weeks grooming Skelton. Blatant speculation here, but my guess is that, had Daniels cleared waivers and made it to the practice squad, they would've groomed Skelton for a handful of weeks until he had a good grasp on the playbook, given McCoy the boot and then promoted Daniels back up to the #3 QB on the active roster.