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Can someone explain this to me??

  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 27,019
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Aside from the Cam Johnson move I don't lose sleep over the other moves, none of them say Nose Tackle anywhere/anyway.

for what its worth, i had a good old fashioned cciowa meltdown on the haralason thing but got over that in three days. for some odd reason i never got worked up over cam? maybe its because he never did anything for us in the regular season and just did a couple good things in pre season. I was more than ok with dan and the lemon man as the backups esp when you consider what we had last year for backups in that area. i will never second guess the team for not keeping the two x niner linebackers in the wake of what took place with aldon because , while you were wary of aldon,, you can NEVER predict what happened to him. I am more than happy with the linebacker they just signed. wish we could have signed a defensive or offensive lineman but as you said,, its not tragic. i like how we played and the system we ran vs the rams and i feel we are back on track if I am wrong and we lose sunday well, it will not be because of x niners who we "should" have kept
I'm not about to question Jim Harbaugh's moves in the QB Dept. Safe to say, I trust the man knows what he was doing.

There was almost a universal belief on the Webzone that Alex Smith was a Grade A bust before Jim arrived. I made the foolish bet of predicting that Harbaugh would never turn Smith into a decent QB. I wasn't the only one who made this silly assertion. Bottom line? Harbaugh made all of us look stupid by turning Alex into a Grade A NFL starter who is now enjoying a undefeated season as a member of the KC Chiefs. In return -- we got a second round pick for the man plus what looks like another second rounder.

You gonna hit Harbaugh in the chops for that?

This man has pushed nearly every right button since he got here. I give him the benefit of the doubt. Besides, if the day ever came where we had to make a choice between BJ Daniels or John Skeletor at QB -- it only means that our playoff hopes are dead.

Let's hope that day never comes, kids.
  • buck
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 11,484
Originally posted by cciowa:
we can cut through all of the blather about people being upset we traded two linebackers and let the corner get to kansas city. the only reason this thread exists is due to the fact we cut a favored son in daniels.

I am not sure that this is entirely true, but it could contain a core element of truth.

Originally posted by cciowa:
How else can you explain so many people turning on JH who just last week was a miracle worker with a quarterback. Now he sucks?

I can not explain people turning on Harbaugh. Not even sure if that many people have.
But, my best guesses are some people:

1. have a tendency to complain.
2. get upset when the "underdog does not win"
3. have never really supported Harbaugh (or Baalke)
4. use perceived mistakes to build their sense of self
5. are just pissed because we are 2-2
6. are just fickle.
7. just go with the flow

I think guesses 1 and 5 are the most likely.
Originally posted by trellblaze:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Good post! This is what I had in my 53 projections:

CB (6): Tarell Brown, Carlos Rogers, Nnamdi Asomugha, Perrish Cox, Tramaine Brock and Marcus Cooper; Chris Culliver & Eric Wright (PUP) - Note: Darryl Morris is playing very well and has been playing fantastic in practice. Both Cooper and Morris could very well end up pushing Brock off the roster but it's a long shot right now esp. after his INT last night. But you can't teach what Cooper/Morris have and both are very good on ST.

There was clearly room to keep both and we had paid Cox/Brock a lot in the off season (mainly for ST purposes as gunners). We could have gone cheaper here and kept both, but at least, keep one. And we ended up getting lucky keeping Morris.

The issue I have is that the same ones claiming the Cooper loss is no big deal or is just part of the process are the same ones who didn't do their research and slated him as a developmental CB for now and he future (for cheaper than Brock/Cox and with potentially, much more upside) who should have made the 53. There was clearly room for one or the other and even both if you removed Stupar or Ventrone. CB's with Morris' speed and Coopers 6'2 195 frame are very hard to find esp. in the 7th round and who showed well. The Chiefs/Hawks did their research and many of our own fans see these moves as no big deal.

We shall see...


I, like you, had kept track of both Morris and Cooper. Both seemed intriguing but I was more interested in Morris, personally. Did you see his college film? Never mind his speed - which is amazing - but this guy takes FLAWLESS angles on tackles and when he gets there he's very aggressive. My only concern is his size. He would get DESTROYED by Megatron or Brandon Marshall but I still think he may have been one of the most athletic corners in the draft. Seriously man, if you haven't seen his tackling angles, go look up some highlights. What I couldn't quite figure out is where he would fit in because of his size.

I wasn't thrilled about losing a big corner like Cooper but I wasn't devastated.

For some reason Ventrone has a pretty bad rap around here. I guess people must not've paid attention to our special teams against the Rams. Ventrone made more than one big play and at least one good tackle on coverage. At one point even Mayock commented "...just follow the hair" referring to Ventrone flying to the ball consistently. We all saw what happened to our ST last season when we neglected it. We definitely could've used a Ventrone tackle during the Super Bowl last year...

So happy I wasnt alone in this one...would have loved to consult with you during the 53-man projections. Yes, yes and YES, Morris looks like a serious find as well. What was interesting is that we played him outside in the pre season and he did very well. But where "I" would love to see this guy (mainly b/c of his height) is in theslot where most "niftier" WR's are placed (Harvin, Collie, Welkers, etc.). Morris seems lightning quick AND fast. If he continues to develop his technique, look out. He's the type of DB where is an outside guy loses containment or gets beat, he can motor over to make a play. A perfect example of this is to picture the Superbowl where Flacco Hail-Mary'd it up to Jones who caught it, fell backwards, had time to get up, make a move and STILL make it into the EZ before anyone else in our entire secondary could even get into screen. Pathetic.

Cooper, to me, just had a calmness, maturity that is hard to describe when I watched him play...just very solid and he appeared to have tremendous upside and certainly, the tangibles we have been lacking for years now (size at the CB position). I thought he could become a geat understudy to Nnamdi. These are tough qualities to find in a CB and an achilles heal of ours esp. in the playoffs (bigger WR's and TE's destroying us...). I'm tired of watching our CB's in the vacinity and not make a play or in great position but too short to make one. It's a game of inches, right?

Ventrone is known to be a very good ST player but to be fair, he wasn't anything special (even poor in one game) until this past Rams game where he looked good. Hopefully he gets better and better and he better b/c his ST ability is the ONLY reason he's here now esp. after not taking a snap all pre season (he's a Seely-bone).
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 27,019
Originally posted by buck:
Originally posted by cciowa:
we can cut through all of the blather about people being upset we traded two linebackers and let the corner get to kansas city. the only reason this thread exists is due to the fact we cut a favored son in daniels.

I am not sure that this is entirely true, but it could contain a core element of truth.

Originally posted by cciowa:
How else can you explain so many people turning on JH who just last week was a miracle worker with a quarterback. Now he sucks?

I can not explain people turning on Harbaugh. Not even sure if that many people have.
But, my best guesses are some people:

1. have a tendency to complain.
2. get upset when the "underdog does not win"
3. have never really supported Harbaugh (or Baalke)
4. use perceived mistakes to build their sense of self
5. are just pissed because we are 2-2
6. are just fickle.
7. just go with the flow

I think guesses 1 and 5 are the most likely.
thank you buck, good thoughts as usual... however i will stay in the grassy knoll with my "favored son" theory there are many people who are "acting" like they have turned on JH in the last week. the only thing we have done in the last week other than to win is to cut a third string quarterback. again I continue to set in the grassy knoll
  • buck
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 11,484
Originally posted by cciowa:
thank you buck, good thoughts as usual... however i will stay in the grassy knoll with my "favored son" theory there are many people who are "acting" like they have turned on JH in the last week. the only thing we have done in the last week other than to win is to cut a third string quarterback. again I continue to set in the grassy knoll


OK. You are probably right.
Originally posted by billbird2111:
I'm not about to question Jim Harbaugh's moves in the QB Dept. Safe to say, I trust the man knows what he was doing.

There was almost a universal belief on the Webzone that Alex Smith was a Grade A bust before Jim arrived. I made the foolish bet of predicting that Harbaugh would never turn Smith into a decent QB. I wasn't the only one who made this silly assertion. Bottom line? Harbaugh made all of us look stupid by turning Alex into a Grade A NFL starter who is now enjoying a undefeated season as a member of the KC Chiefs. In return -- we got a second round pick for the man plus what looks like another second rounder.

You gonna hit Harbaugh in the chops for that?

This man has pushed nearly every right button since he got here. I give him the benefit of the doubt. Besides, if the day ever came where we had to make a choice between BJ Daniels or John Skeletor at QB -- it only means that our playoff hopes are dead.

Let's hope that day never comes, kids.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by trellblaze:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Good post! This is what I had in my 53 projections:

CB (6): Tarell Brown, Carlos Rogers, Nnamdi Asomugha, Perrish Cox, Tramaine Brock and Marcus Cooper; Chris Culliver & Eric Wright (PUP) - Note: Darryl Morris is playing very well and has been playing fantastic in practice. Both Cooper and Morris could very well end up pushing Brock off the roster but it's a long shot right now esp. after his INT last night. But you can't teach what Cooper/Morris have and both are very good on ST.

There was clearly room to keep both and we had paid Cox/Brock a lot in the off season (mainly for ST purposes as gunners). We could have gone cheaper here and kept both, but at least, keep one. And we ended up getting lucky keeping Morris.

The issue I have is that the same ones claiming the Cooper loss is no big deal or is just part of the process are the same ones who didn't do their research and slated him as a developmental CB for now and he future (for cheaper than Brock/Cox and with potentially, much more upside) who should have made the 53. There was clearly room for one or the other and even both if you removed Stupar or Ventrone. CB's with Morris' speed and Coopers 6'2 195 frame are very hard to find esp. in the 7th round and who showed well. The Chiefs/Hawks did their research and many of our own fans see these moves as no big deal.

We shall see...


I, like you, had kept track of both Morris and Cooper. Both seemed intriguing but I was more interested in Morris, personally. Did you see his college film? Never mind his speed - which is amazing - but this guy takes FLAWLESS angles on tackles and when he gets there he's very aggressive. My only concern is his size. He would get DESTROYED by Megatron or Brandon Marshall but I still think he may have been one of the most athletic corners in the draft. Seriously man, if you haven't seen his tackling angles, go look up some highlights. What I couldn't quite figure out is where he would fit in because of his size.

I wasn't thrilled about losing a big corner like Cooper but I wasn't devastated.

For some reason Ventrone has a pretty bad rap around here. I guess people must not've paid attention to our special teams against the Rams. Ventrone made more than one big play and at least one good tackle on coverage. At one point even Mayock commented "...just follow the hair" referring to Ventrone flying to the ball consistently. We all saw what happened to our ST last season when we neglected it. We definitely could've used a Ventrone tackle during the Super Bowl last year...

So happy I wasnt alone in this one...would have loved to consult with you during the 53-man projections. Yes, yes and YES, Morris looks like a serious find as well. What was interesting is that we played him outside in the pre season and he did very well. But where "I" would love to see this guy (mainly b/c of his height) is in theslot where most "niftier" WR's are placed (Harvin, Collie, Welkers, etc.). Morris seems lightning quick AND fast. If he continues to develop his technique, look out. He's the type of DB where is an outside guy loses containment or gets beat, he can motor over to make a play. A perfect example of this is to picture the Superbowl where Flacco Hail-Mary'd it up to Jones who caught it, fell backwards, had time to get up, make a move and STILL make it into the EZ before anyone else in our entire secondary could even get into screen. Pathetic.

Cooper, to me, just had a calmness, maturity that is hard to describe when I watched him play...just very solid and he appeared to have tremendous upside and certainly, the tangibles we have been lacking for years now (size at the CB position). I thought he could become a geat understudy to Nnamdi. These are tough qualities to find in a CB and an achilles heal of ours esp. in the playoffs (bigger WR's and TE's destroying us...). I'm tired of watching our CB's in the vacinity and not make a play or in great position but too short to make one. It's a game of inches, right?

Ventrone is known to be a very good ST player but to be fair, he wasn't anything special (even poor in one game) until this past Rams game where he looked good. Hopefully he gets better and better and he better b/c his ST ability is the ONLY reason he's here now esp. after not taking a snap all pre season (he's a Seely-bone).


Good post.

On a general note. What's puzzling is how the Niners plan for stocking the pipeline with developmental players. Isn't that what the draft is for? Especially the later rounds. Why even draft a position if there is no chance that you're going to keep a player no matter how much he shines or exceeds expectations? What exactly is the point? Draft other positons that have a chance of sticking.

Specifically, I refer to Morris, Gray and Daniels (there are probably others). Cam Johnson too, although he was traded so they at least got something for him - even though it was only a chance at picking another marginal player, who would buck odds to make the team. As for the others - I would argue that they exceeded expectations insomuch as they showed pretty evidently that they could play in this league and at a higher level than one would expect from a player drafted where they were. Still they were cut and the Niners retained other marginal veterans who have pretty much hit their ceiling and look average at best. So why why were these guys drafted in the first place, if there wasn't room for a player at their positon to develop? ( I happen to think that they needed to keep those guys for what they showed).

Some fans snicker when others question the teams moves, suggesting that no outsider should ever second guess the team's moves. But those FO/coaching guys are definitely not infallible. I've pretty much sided with the team's personnel choices in past years. This year, however, I confess to some discomfort and I have yet to say "Wow" in a good way to any move that they've made so far.

For instance, I'm pretty disgruntled with their handling of their WR situation. From the beginning of training camp. The Niners have two of the biggest scrubs on their roster who have FOR YEARS demonstrated that they are mediocre. Yet they doggedly stick to them, even as their #2 at times. Perhaps after they lose this weekend's game they will do something about it. But it's getting pretty late in the day for that.

Let's see.
Originally posted by buck:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Seriously? Those fans need to be banned ASAP! Haha. I was just more concerned with how the aforementioned could end up helping us now and perhaps, even more down the line. Now we just have tounfairly gage them based on what they do or don't do with their new teams.

Brandon Jacobs

I am concerned about the roster moves the team makes.

Hawkins and Daniels have not played in one game since they have been released.
There is no solid evidence to indicate that their releases are mistakes.

There is no solid evidence to indicate that cutting Cam Johnson and Parys Haralson were mistakes.

Each and every one of these four moves COULD BE a mistake, but it is equally true that these same moves COULD BE good moves.

Like everyone else, I am only expressing my opinion. And I do think I am being fair to the players involved in the trades.

We can only begin to objectively evaluate these decisions after this season is over at the earliest. And we would have to also look at the players we kept when we released these players and attempt to compare the overall net gain or loss in value.
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Originally posted by redrathman:
1. He's bigger.
2. He has starting experience.
3. He's got a better arm.
4. He's just 25 years old.
5. He's a winner.

Skelton was able to produce winning records in his starts during his first two seasons behind the worst line in football. It's clear Harbaugh didn't like Daniels enough to keep him as his third.

We don't know enough about Daniels' work ethic and ability to pick up the system. Clearly, he wasn't worth a spot on the 53. Every other team in football had the opportunity to claim Daniels and Carroll was the only one who did.

I trust Harbaugh has more knowledge about NFL Quarterbacks in one finger then the collective knowledge of this forum.

This. If they want a pocket QB, Skelton has far more potential. Even with Wilson, if you can keep him in the pocket, he struggles immensely, look at his numbers last week in the first half or against the 49ers for pretty much the entire game. If you can keep him from getting to the outside, he's a lot less effective. The same goes for Daniels. Skelton is a guy who sit in the pocket, maintain his composure against the pass rush and gun the ball out of there, if necessary he has the athleticism to scramble, get away from the pass rush and run the ball himself.


He's 6'6" and 250, you can't teach that kind of size. Considering he's still pretty young, I'd love to see what Harbaugh can do to mold him into a better overall QB, even just as a quality backup player.

I think there is a broader storyline developing. How are the read/options wonders of last year doing this year. RG3, Wilson, Kap, their stats are way down. The NFL has caught up to this. Maybe it was a gimmick that had it's moment and it is going to come back to the pure pocket passer. Look at the year Peyton, Ryan and River's are having. That type of QB has endured. Also our line is built for power running to set up play action with occasional shots down the field. Kap gives the added element of throwing in a read/option wrinkle just enough to keep the defense off balance and also having to account for him as far as not leaving lanes open for him to run. Tremendous advantages. But in the end, if any QB can't sit back in the pocket and take defenses apart with his arm alone he isn't going to cut it in the NFL. I'm curious to see what Harbaugh sees in Skelton. It is just an emergency move because McCoy sucks, or is there real promise?
  • buck
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 11,484
Originally posted by barrymartin:
We can only begin to objectively evaluate these decisions after this season is over at the earliest. And we would have to also look at the players we kept when we released these players and attempt to compare the overall net gain or loss in value.

I agree.

Unfortunately, I do not think that objectivity has esteem or import in the complaints against the team, the front office, or the coaching staff.

The simple fact is that each move by the team can be questioned, and maybe should be questioned.

But, there seems to an absolute failure to realize that evaluating a move requires actual evidence.

The fact that a move made by the front office could be an error or mistake does not mean that the move was an error or a mistake.
Originally posted by Rsrkshn:
Good post.

On a general note. What's puzzling is how the Niners plan for stocking the pipeline with developmental players. Isn't that what the draft is for? Especially the later rounds. Why even draft a position if there is no chance that you're going to keep a player no matter how much he shines or exceeds expectations? What exactly is the point? Draft other positons that have a chance of sticking.

Specifically, I refer to Morris, Gray and Daniels (there are probably others). Cam Johnson too, although he was traded so they at least got something for him - even though it was only a chance at picking another marginal player, who would buck odds to make the team. As for the others - I would argue that they exceeded expectations insomuch as they showed pretty evidently that they could play in this league and at a higher level than one would expect from a player drafted where they were. Still they were cut and the Niners retained other marginal veterans who have pretty much hit their ceiling and look average at best. So why why were these guys drafted in the first place, if there wasn't room for a player at their positon to develop? ( I happen to think that they needed to keep those guys for what they showed).

Some fans snicker when others question the teams moves, suggesting that no outsider should ever second guess the team's moves. But those FO/coaching guys are definitely not infallible. I've pretty much sided with the team's personnel choices in past years. This year, however, I confess to some discomfort and I have yet to say "Wow" in a good way to any move that they've made so far.

For instance, I'm pretty disgruntled with their handling of their WR situation. From the beginning of training camp. The Niners have two of the biggest scrubs on their roster who have FOR YEARS demonstrated that they are mediocre. Yet they doggedly stick to them, even as their #2 at times. Perhaps after they lose this weekend's game they will do something about it. But it's getting pretty late in the day for that.

Let's see.


Great post.
Originally posted by Rsrkshn:
Good post.

On a general note. What's puzzling is how the Niners plan for stocking the pipeline with developmental players. Isn't that what the draft is for? Especially the later rounds. Why even draft a position if there is no chance that you're going to keep a player no matter how much he shines or exceeds expectations? What exactly is the point? Draft other positons that have a chance of sticking.

Specifically, I refer to Morris, Gray and Daniels (there are probably others).
Let's see.

You talk about drafting guys and then bring up two players who were UDFA's. Seriously? Look, this team has talented roster, they won't be able to keep everyone, its simple as that. Gray has done nothing for Cleveland, hasn't even taken a snap, realistically he should be on a practice squad somewhere. Daniels also belongs on a practice squad, he's extremely raw, comes from a spread-based system, and with the 49ers moving away from a read option system, Daniels had no fit on this team, the last thing they need is to develop another guy with limited experience playing behind center. Skelton is a pure pocket QB that fits what Harbaugh is trying to do on offense and is already experienced with over 20 NFL starts under his belt.

Daniels someday MIGHT be a good player, or he might be a total bust and get released by Seattle like many of the other former 49ers they've signed.....*cough* Nate Davis *cough*, I just hope if that happens, you're honest enough to come back and say "whoops, looks like Baalke knew what he was doing after all." I'm not happy with the 49ers dumping Cooper either, but people are strongly overreacting over a quarter's worth of play against a team that is struggling in every facet of the game. Let's see how these guys are doing a year from now.

All this grinding of teeth, moaning and groaning reminds me when the 49ers let Nate Palmer and Chris Owusu go last offseason...where are those guys now? Owusu is on the practice squad for Tampa Bay and Nate Palmer is selling insurance now. In the end, the 49ers won't be able to keep everyone, this is a pretty loaded roster, they'll swing and miss on players, just like every other team, like every other GM in the NFL does, it happens, that is just reality.

6th and 7th rounders are crap shoots, the vast majority of them will be out of the NFL in under 2 years or less. It is just the reality of the situation, you take a chance on a guy and if it doesn't work, you cut your losses and keep moving on.
you have to ask yourself.... would Seattle have made room on their roster for Colt McCoy if we released him? Did they even attempt to bring in Skeleton?

why is it that Seattle and other teams wants our "trash" as soon as they are available, where as we want the rest of the NFL's "trash" in McCoy and someone like Skeleton who was quite available for some time.

just thoughts really. I mean, why didn't we sign Skeleton weeks ago...he could've been more ready with our offense, than he is going to be this Sunday...if we needed him.

just confusing all around.
Originally posted by Afrikan:
you have to ask yourself.... would Seattle have made room on their roster for Colt McCoy if we released him? Did they even attempt to bring in Skeleton?

why is it that Seattle and other teams wants our "trash" as soon as they are available, where as we want the rest of the NFL's "trash" in McCoy and someone like Skeleton who was quite available for some time.

just thoughts really. I mean, why didn't we sign Skeleton weeks ago...he could've been more ready with our offense, than he is going to be this Sunday...if we needed him.

just confusing all around.

I dont think he was wanted as bad, all other 30 teams passed him up in waiver wire. Seattle did in spite of us.

I still dont get the hate, Daniels is a PROJECT QB. He didnt fit anymore. He is a read option, teams know that now. Kap wont run,it is plain stupid to base an offense on a read option. dont run your QB in the nfl. College, fine, you have like 4 QBs dressed every week. 46 men in NFL, nearly 80 in College.

Gray was also a project. Cooper was a low round guy, so he got cut, big deal. The team thought Brock was better. I didnt, but who am I to judge them. People need to realize the cap plays a HUGE impact on these thing, look at Jennings and Haralson, couldn't afford their salaries. Jennings isnt even on a roster. Haralson has been average with New Orleans. Cam hasnt played much for INDY, and he played GOOD against 3rd and 4th stringers, guys in either CFL, AFL, P-Squads, or unemployed.

If anyone else over looks this they are idiots. I get sick of typing this s**t out every day to have everyone overlook it. THE CAP PLAYS A GIGANTIC PART IN THE DECISION MAKING. There I made myself perfectly clear.