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The Solutions Thread

Originally posted by bzborow1:
I think they are just not good enough.

It might be that simple. Crabtree is another guy who isn't very good off the LOS but tremendous at RAC when he does get the ball and is open. The best WR we have right now who can create great separatio off the LOS is Manningham and I wonder if he'll ever be the same. Our WR's need to watch old film of Rice on how to beat a defender. It's all on the first move and within the first few steps every time.
Originally posted by SoCal9ers:
2014 Alex > 2014 Kap

Is this one of the solutions? I would hope that through only 3 games into this season a 9 year veteran would look better than a 13 game starter. Thing is that according to Jim, Kap is the better fit at QB for this team. What Alex put on film over 8 seasons wasn't enough to prevent Jim at the time from handing over his job to a 2 game starter. One can argue that Kap has shown more promise than Alex did over his 1st year of starting and his 8 years of play in only 13 starts. This ain't KC bud and we aren't looking for solutions for that team. We are discussing solutions for this team
Not sure if this has been brought up, but I was talking to my co-worker and his observation was that there's a certain defensive scheme (which the Seahawks and Colts used) that 49ers aren't able to beat.

From what I understand in a nutshell, is that the secondary plays tight man, with a key Safety lurking in the box with responsibility of either stopping the run / or spying on Kap. (which probably explains his hesitation to just take off and run.)

This forces Kap & his WRs to make plays vs man coverage, which unfortunately they are doing a horrible job of. Which lead me to realize how much we miss Crabtree and how much of a catalyst he is (I don't care what anyone says about Boldin), last season the Kap & Crab connection beat man coverage all day everyday.

I'm very curious to see how our coaches try and solve this with the current personnel, I'm not surprised they're looking at Baldwin.
I'm finally realizing why all the pro-Smith guys were saying we need WRs to step up. Unfortunately it's taken us 2 bad losses to realize it. WR has been a problem for a long time and it's showing that it still is. I know the injuries don't help much but we went through the same type of injuries during 2011 when we lost Josh Morgan, the only difference now is we had time to address it early and can't win with what we have on the field.
Speaking of WCO concepts, I'd like Roman to adopt some of what Andy Reid is doing regarding HiLo route concepts. It beats man coverage using crossing routes at multiple depths and it favors Kap's strength, which is the cannon arm.

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Inside-the-playbook-Eagles-HiLo-concepts.html

"It can cause natural pick situations and it allows the QB to throw to a receiver with the defender now in a trail position."

A defender simply has no time to make a play on a pass that is between the numbers (short distance) and rifled in. I know I suggested in an earlier post to have the WRs be decoys in a some what tongue in cheek suggestion, but seriously, this HiLo idea can beat tight man coverage.
[ Edited by thl408 on Sep 24, 2013 at 11:39 AM ]
Originally posted by verb1der:
Not sure if this has been brought up, but I was talking to my co-worker and his observation was that there's a certain defensive scheme (which the Seahawks and Colts used) that 49ers aren't able to beat.

From what I understand in a nutshell, is that the secondary plays tight man, with a key Safety lurking in the box with responsibility of either stopping the run / or spying on Kap. (which probably explains his hesitation to just take off and run.)

This forces Kap & his WRs to make plays vs man coverage, which unfortunately they are doing a horrible job of. Which lead me to realize how much we miss Crabtree and how much of a catalyst he is (I don't care what anyone says about Boldin), last season the Kap & Crab connection beat man coverage all day everyday.

I'm very curious to see how our coaches try and solve this with the current personnel, I'm not surprised they're looking at Baldwin.
Not sure if this has been said but I can't figure out why the Niners don't try and stretch the field on some deep balls. We do struggle with these types of defenses but if they spread the wr's out a little bit and went deep to kyle williams or patton or whichever guy is in single coverage than it will at least keep the safeties back a little bit. If you never go for it, the safety has a much easier job.

I know we also don't have the best wr core in the NFL but I would like to see more spread offense. Put Kaep in shotgun with Gore or Hunter in the backfield... spread the wr's and TE's out. This gives Kaep more looks for 1 on 1 coverages and the best matchups. NFL is all about matchups and mismatches. aggressive D's can't double up on everyone and our TE's with Boldin and maybe the shifty patton will have a better chance against the #3 or #4 db on the opposing team. Also the penalties being called on the defenses right now are absurd. The more wr's and TE's you have going out for passes, the better opportunity for us to draw a defensive holding penalty.

We don't have to go spread or deep the whole game... we just have to mix it up a little bit to keep the defenses on their heels.
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
Solutions,

Defense:
Aldon, out in rehab... Lemon-yay!
Willis, out with injury, sign Larry Grant.
Put 8 in the box against strong running teams
Give up less short passing, by dropping one safety shallower (corner had better start to cover we are trying to help/hide them with deep safety help)
Tackle, Tackle, Tackle!

Offense:
Davis out injured, have a big mac attack!
Gore between the tackles (Iso, counter, belly), and off tackle only, 15-20 carries (Power runs)
Hunter on the toss, and in the screen, lots of zone blocking
More bunch concept plays to helps beat the press coverage
Full backs and Tight ends, running more wheel and crossing routes, to give Kaep a safe check down
Simplify play calling, take less deep shots.
Sign Hawkins for kick returns
Patton on the slant, and comebacks, Williams...gone



Fans:
Relax
Understand just because you are the favorite to win the super bowl in the preseason, doesn't mean you will, a winning season is good, a play off appearance is great.
Relax
Understand there are growing pains, when replacing players, Goldie, Alex, Iceman, Franklin, and Walker were important pieces.
Relax
Support the team, cheer, have fun, but remember, it's a game.
Relax.

wouldnt larry grant have to serve a 4 game suspension if signed?
Originally posted by hofer36:
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
Solutions,

Defense:
Aldon, out in rehab... Lemon-yay!
Willis, out with injury, sign Larry Grant.
Put 8 in the box against strong running teams
Give up less short passing, by dropping one safety shallower (corner had better start to cover we are trying to help/hide them with deep safety help)
Tackle, Tackle, Tackle!

Offense:
Davis out injured, have a big mac attack!
Gore between the tackles (Iso, counter, belly), and off tackle only, 15-20 carries (Power runs)
Hunter on the toss, and in the screen, lots of zone blocking
More bunch concept plays to helps beat the press coverage
Full backs and Tight ends, running more wheel and crossing routes, to give Kaep a safe check down
Simplify play calling, take less deep shots.
Sign Hawkins for kick returns
Patton on the slant, and comebacks, Williams...gone



Fans:
Relax
Understand just because you are the favorite to win the super bowl in the preseason, doesn't mean you will, a winning season is good, a play off appearance is great.
Relax
Understand there are growing pains, when replacing players, Goldie, Alex, Iceman, Franklin, and Walker were important pieces.
Relax
Support the team, cheer, have fun, but remember, it's a game.
Relax.

wouldnt larry grant have to serve a 4 game suspension if signed?

yes
Originally posted by barrymartin:
Would agree, but I'm wondering why you would take Collie over Hawkins who seems more explosive and a genuine threat downfield. We need to stretch defenses. Agreed Baldwin could help with that and has the size to be press coverage...

Because Hawkins is garbage. He's like an older version of Kyle Williams, no different, hasn't been productive whatsoever in the NFL. Just because he lit up a bunch of 4th and 5th string stiffs that are working at Arby's now doesn't mean he can hack it in the regular season, otherwise he'd have a job by now.
  • dj43
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 20,155
Originally posted by NCommand:
You probably shouldn't use the Bears game as a reference as they were on record as saying they had NO IDEA how to defend CK b/c at the time, "Nobody knew what he could do...not even our own coaches."

I'm seeing lots of blame on the lack of separation by the WR's. On the flip side, do you think Manning had great WR's in Denver? Or Brady in New England (esp. now)? Of course not. But what they ARE doing is spending extra time coaching them up, ensuring thet know their routes, focusing on precision, practicing and working with their OC's to ensure proper game plans. They also, in game, are making the correct pre snap reads and are throwing accurate balls. Right now, CK is off...WAY OFF on much of this and IMHO, Roman is not helping anyone with his college offense and poor personnel choices; he is VERY predictable.

Problem: HaRoMan and perceived WR's lack of separation
Solution/Rationale: It's beyond time we move to a traditional WCO. This involves three layers of options for a QB on every single pass play. Typically the first look is the deeper routes, scan the field from side to side, then look to the intermediate routes where the TE's find the soft zones and then finally, look to your outlets in the flats (RB's and FB's). Simple. Timing and precision passing is the key. Pre snap reads aren't as critical as one of the three options should be open every play. My personnel would be Baldwin at the X > Patton at the Y > Boldin at the Z. I'd rotate between two backs in I formations and two TE sets. Extra work would be done ala Jerry Rice of creating separation immediately off the LOS by the WR's (explosion off the LOS, hand fighting, beating press, using your big bodied WR's better for sheilding off DB's, teaching both VD and McDonald how to drop in soft zones and create outlets for CK). The WCO is predicated on precision and timing through perpetual repetition. Practice the first 20 plays until perfection. The short passing game will open up the inside/outside running game esp. in the second half. TAKE some real shots deep if that read is there. Otherwise defenses will continue to stack 8-9 in the box and play down hill under the 15 yards making it much harder to get separation by all receivers.

Pretty good summary of what makes the WalshCO offense effective. Right now it looks like HaRo has decided they will not use any of that short stuff because that is what Alex did and they have already made the decision that Kaepernick is their guy and his cannon arm is wasted on short passes. For them, to use what Smith did is tantamount to admitting they made a mistake by trading away Smith. Of course, the fact Kaepernick has not yet developed touch on his short passes makes things worse.


Dump the read option. Everybody in the league figured it out over the off season. Even college teams are going away from it. Go back to the I and shotgun formations.

Use patterns and scheme to help the current group of WRs get open. Just spreading the field is not good enough with this group of receivers. All that does is make it easier for defenders to man up. Rubs, drags, picks, bunches, those kinds of things that use alignment and flow to confuse defenders will allow the passing game to work.

Get Gore/James/Hunter involved in the passing game with swings and screens. (Sean Peyton is the best in the league at this stuff) Walsh used to call these "long handoffs." If Harbaugh really is a Walsh disciple, he should know this.

Get Jon Baldwin on the field. The guy has 41 catches from some of the worst QBs in the league against some pretty good defenses over the last two years. To suggest the current group is better than Baldwin is just laughable. Someone is being either stubborn or unrealistic here.

Use McDonald in those short zones vacated by blitzing LBs or safeties that have been crowding the line the past two weeks. He has shown good ability to do this. Use Vernon Davis on the routes he runs best and supplement that with McD.


As you said, precision is the key, NOT multiple sets and shifts. It appears to me they are spending a lot of time on all the gingerbread but the precision with which routes must be run and how they integrate is surely missing.

This stuff should not be rocket science. Time to grow Kaepernick into a QB instead of a thrower/runner. Giving him short, safe throws right now is critically important to not only advancing him as an NFL QB, but restoring his sense of confidence as well.

Good coaches don't get locked into only one way of doing things. Time to put the ego in the trunk and use what works.
[ Edited by dj43 on Sep 24, 2013 at 12:12 PM ]
  • dmax
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 6,020
pound the damned rock...which will set up the play action pass...activate baldwin for christs sake
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
You probably shouldn't use the Bears game as a reference as they were on record as saying they had NO IDEA how to defend CK b/c at the time, "Nobody knew what he could do...not even our own coaches."

I'm seeing lots of blame on the lack of separation by the WR's. On the flip side, do you think Manning had great WR's in Denver? Or Brady in New England (esp. now)? Of course not. But what they ARE doing is spending extra time coaching them up, ensuring thet know their routes, focusing on precision, practicing and working with their OC's to ensure proper game plans. They also, in game, are making the correct pre snap reads and are throwing accurate balls. Right now, CK is off...WAY OFF on much of this and IMHO, Roman is not helping anyone with his college offense and poor personnel choices; he is VERY predictable.

Problem: HaRoMan and perceived WR's lack of separation
Solution/Rationale: It's beyond time we move to a traditional WCO. This involves three layers of options for a QB on every single pass play. Typically the first look is the deeper routes, scan the field from side to side, then look to the intermediate routes where the TE's find the soft zones and then finally, look to your outlets in the flats (RB's and FB's). Simple. Timing and precision passing is the key. Pre snap reads aren't as critical as one of the three options should be open every play. My personnel would be Baldwin at the X > Patton at the Y > Boldin at the Z. I'd rotate between two backs in I formations and two TE sets. Extra work would be done ala Jerry Rice of creating separation immediately off the LOS by the WR's (explosion off the LOS, hand fighting, beating press, using your big bodied WR's better for sheilding off DB's, teaching both VD and McDonald how to drop in soft zones and create outlets for CK). The WCO is predicated on precision and timing through perpetual repetition. Practice the first 20 plays until perfection. The short passing game will open up the inside/outside running game esp. in the second half. TAKE some real shots deep if that read is there. Otherwise defenses will continue to stack 8-9 in the box and play down hill under the 15 yards making it much harder to get separation by all receivers.

Pretty good summary of what makes the WalshCO offense effective. Right now it looks like HaRo has decided they will not use any of that short stuff because that is what Alex did and they have already made the decision that Kaepernick is their guy and his cannon arm is wasted on short passes. For them, to use what Smith did is tantamount to admitting they made a mistake by trading away Smith. Of course, the fact Kaepernick has not yet developed touch on his short passes makes things worse.


Dump the read option. Everybody in the league figured it out over the off season. Even college teams are going away from it. Go back to the I and shotgun formations.

Use patterns and scheme to help the current group of WRs get open. Just spreading the field is not good enough with this group of receivers. All that does is make it easier for defenders to man up. Rubs, drags, picks, bunches, those kinds of things that use alignment and flow to confuse defenders will allow the passing game to work.

Get Gore/James/Hunter involved in the passing game with swings and screens. (Sean Peyton is the best in the league at this stuff) Walsh used to call these "long handoffs." If Harbaugh really is a Walsh disciple, he should know this.

Get Jon Baldwin on the field. The guy has 41 catches from some of the worst QBs in the league against some pretty good defenses over the last two years. To suggest the current group is better than Baldwin is just laughable. Someone is being either stubborn or unrealistic here.

Use McDonald in those short zones vacated by blitzing LBs or safeties that have been crowding the line the past two weeks. He has shown good ability to do this. Use Vernon Davis on the routes he runs best and supplement that with McD.


As you said, precision is the key, NOT multiple sets and shifts. It appears to me they are spending a lot of time on all the gingerbread but the precision with which routes must be run and how they integrate is surely missing.

This stuff should not be rocket science. Time to grow Kaepernick into a QB instead of a thrower/runner. Giving him short, safe throws right now is critically important to not only advancing him as an NFL QB, but restoring his sense of confidence as well.

Good coaches don't get locked into only one way of doing things. Time to put the ego in the trunk and use what works.

Thank you...and I agree on your points. The sad thing here is that CK may end up being the most athletic QB we have ever seen in SF and that is saying a lot. Remember how we used Steve Young? Fake handoff to (Watters?), QB-keeper, naked bootleg right around a pass rushing Charles Haley (a Cowboy then). THIS is how you use a QB's athleticism. And oh how history repeats itself...except this time, it's Andrew Luck doing it to our defense. That was a patient and well-coached team. I wish I could say the same for us.
We need Jimmy Raye back
Originally posted by PatrickWillisHOF:
We need Jimmy Raye back

And Mike Martz. Somewhere in the middle is the perfect offense. Ha
Originally posted by Niners816:
I really think there are some old school WCO concepts that would be perfect for
This years team. They are Z-in, Texas and Q sprint option.

Z-in was a bill walsh staple play. Basically against Zone the flanker would run a hook, the TE would settle about 5 yards over center and the back would run to the flat. Against man the flankers hook became a deep in, TE route became a whip route and the back still occupied the flat. Basically this play encapsulated the Walsh offense settle into the zone and run away from man.

Texas concept is a cover 2 beater that sends the TE on a seam route and the back on the strong side runs an angle route. Lb takes seam away hit the back on the angle, conversely the lb takes the back the. Stick that seam route(kinda think kaep would excel at this throw given his arm strength). This concepts could also help against the qb spy's that kaep has gotten so far this year. Basically if the spy is too worried about kaep that should leave a shot to both the seam or angle route.

Finally q sprint option is probably the most iconic niner play of all time. "The catch " was its result but the beauty of it is that it gives the qb three options. U have a slot guy going to the flat off of a pick, the outside WR first tries to rub the defender so he slot is wide open, he then becomes the second target down the field. Finally the qb has the option to run. If run correctly it's almost impossible to stop. I would be willing to bet rice caught about 40 of these a year.

All these concepts could be packaged in current formation both under center and gun. However I would love to see these ran in traditionL forms (split, far ,near) just to give defenses something they haven't seen in 15 or so years. The great thing about these old concepts are the provide multiple options and in the case of Z-in they provide both a vertical and horizontal stretch that when ran correctly give great pass lanes.

You should post more often! Damn...great stuff!