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The Inconvenient Truth — We are terrible in most phases of the game

  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 22,911
Originally posted by NCommand:
Aside from one INT towards VD last game, name one other time we've "taken shots down field." WE DON'T THROW DOWN FIELD PEOPLE!

we do not run to set up the pass. that is why we are in third and predictable all the time. i know what booth and what fat f**k i can trace this back to but i will refrain my self
2011 49ers were better than the 2012 49ers.
Kaepernick doesnt know what a checkdown is. He only wants plays of 20 yards or more. If they arent open he's going run/get sacked.
meh
So can you guys tell me why the secondary continues to get undeserved heat? Do you guys realize we have allowed only 1 TD through the air the last two weeks combined? Do you guys realize Luck and Wilson were held under 200 yards? I seriously just think many people just come up with predetermined BS and overlook the bigger issues.

Asomugha through three weeks has allowed 4 catches on 11 targets.

Brown has allowed 6 catches through three weeks.

Rogers on the other hand hasn't been as good, but hasn't been terrible either.

So through three weeks the secondary has allowed 4 TDs but they are TERRIBLE? FOH.............................
  • Buchy
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 679
Originally posted by CullyInTheHouse:
So can you guys tell me why the secondary continues to get undeserved heat? Do you guys realize we have allowed only 1 TD through the air the last two weeks combined? Do you guys realize Luck and Wilson were held under 200 yards? I seriously just think many people just come up with predetermined BS and overlook the bigger issues.

Asomugha through three weeks has allowed 4 catches on 11 targets.

Brown has allowed 6 catches through three weeks.

Rogers on the other hand hasn't been as good, but hasn't been terrible either.

So through three weeks the secondary has allowed 4 TDs but they are TERRIBLE? FOH.............................


I agree with you on this, and I think Cully is a big loss, I had high hopes for him this year.

To me the real issue is the NT position and lack of blitzing. Fangio seems to just stick to the same vanilla offense of 4 man rush, the colts got major pressure on Kap through 6/7 man rushes. We're easy to counter on defense when we always stick to the same formula.
Our defense is definitely very predictable and teams are catching up on it. This goes back to last year when Eli Manning said they literally do the same thing every single time. So we aren't coming up with any creative blitzes, but defense still has held their own. They were just worn out the last two weeks.

My thing about the Cully loss is Asomugha has only allowed 4 catches through three weeks. Was Cully really going to be much better? I mean his tackling would have, but we lose the last two weeks with or without Cully. The run defense just is getting ran at more than ever and some of that has to do with being worn out late in games.
Originally posted by KeenaTurner:
Let's be honest...we have major problems in every phase of the game, and most of it should have been avoided.

DEFENSE:

• Our secondary is terrible. Not just bad, terrible. They were getting TORCHED last year, and we made it to the Superbowl despite giving up massive points, because our new offense caught a lot of teams off-guard and scored enough to overcome our awful defense. Improving the secondary should have been job #1. All we did is get Reid (good start), a discarded Nnamde Ahhellnah, and Craig Dahl. That will NOT get it done. We're left with a bunch of JV scrubs who are totally unable to cover anyone one on one. Opposing teams have wide receivers open all over the field.

• Our linebackers are majorly overrated. They became "pro-bowlers" when our defensive line was playing outstanding, allowing our linebackers to fly around and make big plays. Now that our defensive line is not what it used to be, our linebackers are being exposed, big time. Patrick Willis can't even shed blocks from little running backs. There's no fierceness, no urgency. These guys were never in the same class as Pro-Bowlers like Ray Lewis, Clay Matthews, James Harrison, etc. That's become abundantly clear now.

• Our defensive line is just not what it used to be. Tough time stopping the run. Tough time getting pressure on the corner back. Tough times period.

• Our schemes are often terrible. We telegraph 2-deep zones at the wrong times, never blitz when we should, just awful stuff.

OFFENSE:

• We have a bunch of receivers who should not be in the NFL. Kyle Williams can hardly catch, inexplicably falls down when he does, and is a train wreck receiving kicks. Marlon Moore is Marlon Less. Nobody is sweating Jon Baldwin, Chris Harper and Quinton Patton. This is another area — like the secondary — that should have been taken seriously in the offseason. Signing Boldin was a good start, even though he has been unable to get open the last two games. The return of Vernon Davis and Crabtree will help, but it might be too late. Who is our slot receiver? Who is our deep threat?

• The running game has run into a wall. Gore is great running through traffic, but even he can't run through a wall of unblocked lineman and linebackers. LameMichael James was great in college, but he is not a Pro running back. He runs in circles not forward. Not sure why he is not utilized as a kick returner and situational back who catches out of the backfield where he can operate in the open, like Sproles.

• The play calling and approach on offense is really suspect.

SPECIAL TEAMS:

• Terrible. Maybe the worst in the NFL with punt and kick-off return. Their performance in the Colts game was an embarrassment .

PSYCHE:

• This team believed all the hype about itself. They go into Seattle dismissing the opponent the "Shehawks", and summarily get their tails kicked. They needed the Seahawks asswhooping as a wake-up call, and the Colts drubbing as proof that the Seahawks game was no fluke. We'll now see if this team has the heart and will of a champion. I don't think they do, but I will be glad to surprised. Right now, I see no fire and no pride. It's too bad that guys like Frank Gore and Justin Smith have to play with teammates that fold like lawn chairs. They deserve better, and so do the fans.


Our defense isn't anywhere near as bad as you are letting on here.

Yes, they got torched last year when Aldon and Justin were hurt. The secondary was exposed.

This year they have been much, much better. Don't let those final scores fool you....the last two games were very, very close and didn't get out of hand until the D finally broke down because the O could never sustain any drives and the O started turning the ball over in their own territory.

This issue here isn't defense...although it might be now with Aldon and Patrick out.

The D isn't stopping the run the way it used to because they are refusing to put extra men in the box. They are CONSTANTLY running with 6 or 7 to stop the run in order to better defend the pass. Its working too....neither Wilson nor Luck had big passing days.

If the O could just sustain a drive or two and score some points we'd be saying NOTHING about the D right now.
[ Edited by Marvin49 on Sep 23, 2013 at 1:14 PM ]
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by KeenaTurner:
Let's be honest...we have major problems in every phase of the game, and most of it should have been avoided.

DEFENSE:

• Our secondary is terrible. Not just bad, terrible. They were getting TORCHED last year, and we made it to the Superbowl despite giving up massive points, because our new offense caught a lot of teams off-guard and scored enough to overcome our awful defense. Improving the secondary should have been job #1. All we did is get Reid (good start), a discarded Nnamde Ahhellnah, and Craig Dahl. That will NOT get it done. We're left with a bunch of JV scrubs who are totally unable to cover anyone one on one. Opposing teams have wide receivers open all over the field.

• Our linebackers are majorly overrated. They became "pro-bowlers" when our defensive line was playing outstanding, allowing our linebackers to fly around and make big plays. Now that our defensive line is not what it used to be, our linebackers are being exposed, big time. Patrick Willis can't even shed blocks from little running backs. There's no fierceness, no urgency. These guys were never in the same class as Pro-Bowlers like Ray Lewis, Clay Matthews, James Harrison, etc. That's become abundantly clear now.

• Our defensive line is just not what it used to be. Tough time stopping the run. Tough time getting pressure on the corner back. Tough times period.

• Our schemes are often terrible. We telegraph 2-deep zones at the wrong times, never blitz when we should, just awful stuff.

OFFENSE:

• We have a bunch of receivers who should not be in the NFL. Kyle Williams can hardly catch, inexplicably falls down when he does, and is a train wreck receiving kicks. Marlon Moore is Marlon Less. Nobody is sweating Jon Baldwin, Chris Harper and Quinton Patton. This is another area — like the secondary — that should have been taken seriously in the offseason. Signing Boldin was a good start, even though he has been unable to get open the last two games. The return of Vernon Davis and Crabtree will help, but it might be too late. Who is our slot receiver? Who is our deep threat?

• The running game has run into a wall. Gore is great running through traffic, but even he can't run through a wall of unblocked lineman and linebackers. LameMichael James was great in college, but he is not a Pro running back. He runs in circles not forward. Not sure why he is not utilized as a kick returner and situational back who catches out of the backfield where he can operate in the open, like Sproles.

• The play calling and approach on offense is really suspect.

SPECIAL TEAMS:

• Terrible. Maybe the worst in the NFL with punt and kick-off return. Their performance in the Colts game was an embarrassment .

PSYCHE:

• This team believed all the hype about itself. They go into Seattle dismissing the opponent the "Shehawks", and summarily get their tails kicked. They needed the Seahawks asswhooping as a wake-up call, and the Colts drubbing as proof that the Seahawks game was no fluke. We'll now see if this team has the heart and will of a champion. I don't think they do, but I will be glad to surprised. Right now, I see no fire and no pride. It's too bad that guys like Frank Gore and Justin Smith have to play with teammates that fold like lawn chairs. They deserve better, and so do the fans.


Our defense isn't anywhere near as bad as you are letting on here.

Yes, they got torched last year when Aldon and Justin were hurt. The secondary was exposed.

This year they have been much, much better. Don't let those final scores fool you....the last two games were very, very close and didn't get out of hand until the D finally broke down because the O could never sustain any drives and the O started turning the ball over in their own territory.

This issue here isn't defense...although it might be now with Aldon and Patrick out.

The D isn't stopping the run the way it used to because they are refusing to put extra men in the box. They are CONSTANTLY running with 6 or 7 to stop the run in order to better defend the pass. Its working too....neither Wilson nor Luck had big passing days.

If the O could just sustain a drive or two and score some points we'd be saying NOTHING about the D right now.

You hit the nail right on the head, Marvin.

That said, even when our offense clicks Whitner and Rogers (although extremely disciplined as far as scheme) are serious liabilities in coverage. It would be nice if we could play more man and still be defensively sound/create turnover possibilities on the back end (like Seattle). When our pass rush isn't producing and we blitz it almost always seems Whitner or Rogers is the one who loses the one-on-one battle. As for everybody else not playing up front (the obvious strength of our defense):

Namdi has been REALLY up and down (his reaction speed looks a fraction of what it was when he was in Oakland); I have very few problems with Tarell Brown's play (he's been the unfortunate recipient of some ticky-tack calls); Eric Reid has made a few (rookie) mistakes, but otherwise has been our most productive back-end defender.
[ Edited by au8277 on Sep 23, 2013 at 1:47 PM ]
Originally posted by au8277:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by KeenaTurner:
Let's be honest...we have major problems in every phase of the game, and most of it should have been avoided.

DEFENSE:

• Our secondary is terrible. Not just bad, terrible. They were getting TORCHED last year, and we made it to the Superbowl despite giving up massive points, because our new offense caught a lot of teams off-guard and scored enough to overcome our awful defense. Improving the secondary should have been job #1. All we did is get Reid (good start), a discarded Nnamde Ahhellnah, and Craig Dahl. That will NOT get it done. We're left with a bunch of JV scrubs who are totally unable to cover anyone one on one. Opposing teams have wide receivers open all over the field.

• Our linebackers are majorly overrated. They became "pro-bowlers" when our defensive line was playing outstanding, allowing our linebackers to fly around and make big plays. Now that our defensive line is not what it used to be, our linebackers are being exposed, big time. Patrick Willis can't even shed blocks from little running backs. There's no fierceness, no urgency. These guys were never in the same class as Pro-Bowlers like Ray Lewis, Clay Matthews, James Harrison, etc. That's become abundantly clear now.

• Our defensive line is just not what it used to be. Tough time stopping the run. Tough time getting pressure on the corner back. Tough times period.

• Our schemes are often terrible. We telegraph 2-deep zones at the wrong times, never blitz when we should, just awful stuff.

OFFENSE:

• We have a bunch of receivers who should not be in the NFL. Kyle Williams can hardly catch, inexplicably falls down when he does, and is a train wreck receiving kicks. Marlon Moore is Marlon Less. Nobody is sweating Jon Baldwin, Chris Harper and Quinton Patton. This is another area — like the secondary — that should have been taken seriously in the offseason. Signing Boldin was a good start, even though he has been unable to get open the last two games. The return of Vernon Davis and Crabtree will help, but it might be too late. Who is our slot receiver? Who is our deep threat?

• The running game has run into a wall. Gore is great running through traffic, but even he can't run through a wall of unblocked lineman and linebackers. LameMichael James was great in college, but he is not a Pro running back. He runs in circles not forward. Not sure why he is not utilized as a kick returner and situational back who catches out of the backfield where he can operate in the open, like Sproles.

• The play calling and approach on offense is really suspect.

SPECIAL TEAMS:

• Terrible. Maybe the worst in the NFL with punt and kick-off return. Their performance in the Colts game was an embarrassment .

PSYCHE:

• This team believed all the hype about itself. They go into Seattle dismissing the opponent the "Shehawks", and summarily get their tails kicked. They needed the Seahawks asswhooping as a wake-up call, and the Colts drubbing as proof that the Seahawks game was no fluke. We'll now see if this team has the heart and will of a champion. I don't think they do, but I will be glad to surprised. Right now, I see no fire and no pride. It's too bad that guys like Frank Gore and Justin Smith have to play with teammates that fold like lawn chairs. They deserve better, and so do the fans.


Our defense isn't anywhere near as bad as you are letting on here.

Yes, they got torched last year when Aldon and Justin were hurt. The secondary was exposed.

This year they have been much, much better. Don't let those final scores fool you....the last two games were very, very close and didn't get out of hand until the D finally broke down because the O could never sustain any drives and the O started turning the ball over in their own territory.

This issue here isn't defense...although it might be now with Aldon and Patrick out.

The D isn't stopping the run the way it used to because they are refusing to put extra men in the box. They are CONSTANTLY running with 6 or 7 to stop the run in order to better defend the pass. Its working too....neither Wilson nor Luck had big passing days.

If the O could just sustain a drive or two and score some points we'd be saying NOTHING about the D right now.

You hit the nail right on the head, Marvin.

That said, even when our offense clicks Whitner and Rogers (although extremely disciplined as far as scheme) are serious liabilities in coverage. It would be nice if we could play more man and still be defensively sound/create turnover possibilities on the back end (like Seattle). When our pass rush isn't producing and we blitz it almost always seems Whitner or Rogers is the one who loses the one-on-one battle. As for everybody else not playing up front (the obvious strength of our defense):

Namdi has been REALLY up and down (his reaction speed looks a fraction of what it was when he was in Oakland); I have very few problems with Tarell Brown's play (he's been the unfortunate recipient of some ticky-tack calls); Eric Reid has made a few (rookie) mistakes, but otherwise has been our most productive back-end defender.


At least three of the guys you just mentioned are in my opinion in their final seasons as 49ers....Whitner, Rogers and Nnamdi.

The draft will be interesting next year. Lots of WRs and DBs.
[ Edited by Marvin49 on Sep 23, 2013 at 1:49 PM ]
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by au8277:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by KeenaTurner:
Let's be honest...we have major problems in every phase of the game, and most of it should have been avoided.

DEFENSE:

• Our secondary is terrible. Not just bad, terrible. They were getting TORCHED last year, and we made it to the Superbowl despite giving up massive points, because our new offense caught a lot of teams off-guard and scored enough to overcome our awful defense. Improving the secondary should have been job #1. All we did is get Reid (good start), a discarded Nnamde Ahhellnah, and Craig Dahl. That will NOT get it done. We're left with a bunch of JV scrubs who are totally unable to cover anyone one on one. Opposing teams have wide receivers open all over the field.

• Our linebackers are majorly overrated. They became "pro-bowlers" when our defensive line was playing outstanding, allowing our linebackers to fly around and make big plays. Now that our defensive line is not what it used to be, our linebackers are being exposed, big time. Patrick Willis can't even shed blocks from little running backs. There's no fierceness, no urgency. These guys were never in the same class as Pro-Bowlers like Ray Lewis, Clay Matthews, James Harrison, etc. That's become abundantly clear now.

• Our defensive line is just not what it used to be. Tough time stopping the run. Tough time getting pressure on the corner back. Tough times period.

• Our schemes are often terrible. We telegraph 2-deep zones at the wrong times, never blitz when we should, just awful stuff.

OFFENSE:

• We have a bunch of receivers who should not be in the NFL. Kyle Williams can hardly catch, inexplicably falls down when he does, and is a train wreck receiving kicks. Marlon Moore is Marlon Less. Nobody is sweating Jon Baldwin, Chris Harper and Quinton Patton. This is another area — like the secondary — that should have been taken seriously in the offseason. Signing Boldin was a good start, even though he has been unable to get open the last two games. The return of Vernon Davis and Crabtree will help, but it might be too late. Who is our slot receiver? Who is our deep threat?

• The running game has run into a wall. Gore is great running through traffic, but even he can't run through a wall of unblocked lineman and linebackers. LameMichael James was great in college, but he is not a Pro running back. He runs in circles not forward. Not sure why he is not utilized as a kick returner and situational back who catches out of the backfield where he can operate in the open, like Sproles.

• The play calling and approach on offense is really suspect.

SPECIAL TEAMS:

• Terrible. Maybe the worst in the NFL with punt and kick-off return. Their performance in the Colts game was an embarrassment .

PSYCHE:

• This team believed all the hype about itself. They go into Seattle dismissing the opponent the "Shehawks", and summarily get their tails kicked. They needed the Seahawks asswhooping as a wake-up call, and the Colts drubbing as proof that the Seahawks game was no fluke. We'll now see if this team has the heart and will of a champion. I don't think they do, but I will be glad to surprised. Right now, I see no fire and no pride. It's too bad that guys like Frank Gore and Justin Smith have to play with teammates that fold like lawn chairs. They deserve better, and so do the fans.


Our defense isn't anywhere near as bad as you are letting on here.

Yes, they got torched last year when Aldon and Justin were hurt. The secondary was exposed.

This year they have been much, much better. Don't let those final scores fool you....the last two games were very, very close and didn't get out of hand until the D finally broke down because the O could never sustain any drives and the O started turning the ball over in their own territory.

This issue here isn't defense...although it might be now with Aldon and Patrick out.

The D isn't stopping the run the way it used to because they are refusing to put extra men in the box. They are CONSTANTLY running with 6 or 7 to stop the run in order to better defend the pass. Its working too....neither Wilson nor Luck had big passing days.

If the O could just sustain a drive or two and score some points we'd be saying NOTHING about the D right now.

You hit the nail right on the head, Marvin.

That said, even when our offense clicks Whitner and Rogers (although extremely disciplined as far as scheme) are serious liabilities in coverage. It would be nice if we could play more man and still be defensively sound/create turnover possibilities on the back end (like Seattle). When our pass rush isn't producing and we blitz it almost always seems Whitner or Rogers is the one who loses the one-on-one battle. As for everybody else not playing up front (the obvious strength of our defense):

Namdi has been REALLY up and down (his reaction speed looks a fraction of what it was when he was in Oakland); I have very few problems with Tarell Brown's play (he's been the unfortunate recipient of some ticky-tack calls); Eric Reid has made a few (rookie) mistakes, but otherwise has been our most productive back-end defender.


At least three of the guys you just mentioned are in my opinion in their final seasons as 49ers....Whitner, Rogers and Nnamdi.

The draft will be interesting next year. Lots of WRs and DBs.
Yeah, I agree. This year's draft will be very exciting for those who like skill position players. And I have this gut feeling we'll leverage our annual bevy of picks into something major (although this isn't Baalke's style at all).
Originally posted by monsterzero789:
great first post!

lol

I haven't read through the other posts yet, but I am not in agreement with a good portion of that the OP stated.

I do think the secondary is terrible and it concerned me last year, indeed it truly needed to be worked.

I do NOT believe the LB'ers are overrated one ounce, not in the least. I have been watching football for a long time and I have never seen a group of LB'ers that are as talented and physically gifted as the current group. It isn't even a consideration to me. The DLine and Oline both are still very talented in my eyes and frankly a lot of football can be won in the trenches. We need to get back to power football and pepper in Kaepernick's talents where he can thrive.

Stuff happens to every team, how the team emerges from that stuff is what gets measured, not how it was handled before it happened. I am not part of the extreme passion crowd, I never get too down or too high about the Niners, but then I remember the days before Bill Walsh took over. It is only week 4, the Niners are still only two games back in the division and the Hags, while strong, may also be faced with further adversity and injury. IMO, the Niners are still in this thing until they are out of this thing.
Originally posted by Marvin49:
At least three of the guys you just mentioned are in my opinion in their final seasons as 49ers....Whitner, Rogers and Nnamdi.

The draft will be interesting next year. Lots of WRs and DBs.


Agreed and I would like to add Dahl to that list too.
Originally posted by facestabber:
Even though WR is a glaring weakness i wont blame the team for that. Who knew Crabs would tear his achilles at practice. Crabs, Boldin and Davis would have been a formidable threat. The coaches were happy to role with that and enjoy the return of Manningham down the line. I think they tried.

You are right, we have JV scrubs at WR. Lets give Baldwin and Patton a shot thursday. Ive seen enough of Williams.

The defense hasnt played horrible but our D line is a huge problem. We need bigger bodies up front to eat up blockers period. Our scheme is to allow several small cuts till we bleed to death. The team is gonna have to blitz more and take some risks. Kudos to Whitner though on the opening play. He set a tone with that hit and was wrongfully penalized.

I want to defend what you said about our LB's but something seems off for sure. They certainly arent taking any games by force. But even the great LB's you mentioned are protected by the DL. Thats the nature of the game there. So after typing random thoughts I will go with our DL as the weak link.

Special teams are certainly not special. No field position switches. Even Andy Lee is struggling.

Losing the SB was a golden opportunity lost. An entire seasons effort blown and that has to mess with a team's psyche. I honestly didnt expect us to make it back let alone win it this year. 1st place schedule, bullseye on our back and as mentioned the psyche is just too much to overcome. Right before game 1 I said if this team was able to pull all that off and bring home #6 it would be my favorite 49er champion to date as the road was gonna be tough.

I am surprised to see Kap struggling so much. I expected to see a machine after an offseason of work. Week 1 seemed to showcase that he had the arm to do it. I will acknowledge the coaches are being outcoached(Mcarthy almost had us too) but Kap isnt playing well and this season is in jeopardy.

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