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We need a true nose tackle

  • Kolohe
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Originally posted by SofaKing:
Another take on our run defense per PFF

Up front there were solid displays from Ray McDonald (+1.9), Glenn Dorsey (+1.2), and Ahmad Brooks (+1.3) but behind them there were more down performances from the 49ers in one game than you'd expect to see combined in a month. Both Justin Smith (-2.5 run defense) and NaVorro Bowman (-2.9 run defense) were uncharacteristically poor against the ground game, as were reserve linemen Tony Jerod-Eddie (-2.5) and linebacker Michael Wilhoite (-2.1)

Still want to put all our struggles on Dorsey? Sorry guys, but it's not that simple. We have waaay more issues. NT is not the problem.

Again, this is why PFF isn't really resourceful. How was Dorsey in one on one match ups and two on one? Sure Dorsey had a tackle and a sack, but he gave up more than he contributed. Also, opposing running games have owned the defense in the 4th quarter, which is another reason why you need a true NT to either spell or replace Dorsey and vice versa.
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by SofaKing:
Another take on our run defense per PFF

Up front there were solid displays from Ray McDonald (+1.9), Glenn Dorsey (+1.2), and Ahmad Brooks (+1.3) but behind them there were more down performances from the 49ers in one game than you'd expect to see combined in a month. Both Justin Smith (-2.5 run defense) and NaVorro Bowman (-2.9 run defense) were uncharacteristically poor against the ground game, as were reserve linemen Tony Jerod-Eddie (-2.5) and linebacker Michael Wilhoite (-2.1)

Still want to put all our struggles on Dorsey? Sorry guys, but it's not that simple. We have waaay more issues. NT is not the problem.

Again, this is why PFF isn't really resourceful. How was Dorsey in one on one match ups and two on one? Sure Dorsey had a tackle and a sack, but he gave up more than he contributed. Also, opposing running games have owned the defense in the 4th quarter, which is another reason why you need a true NT to either spell or replace Dorsey and vice versa.


Exactly.

Sofaking, I agree with the offense being a huge problem also but Im not going to talk about the same offensive issues in 5 different threads.

Sofa, In how many replays of the last two+ years have you seen opposing guards run totally clean up the field to engulf Willis and Bowman? Not much, until this year. Its consistent now. Im watching the plays closely at this point of attack and the center is pushing the line of scrimmage. We are giving up 5,6, and 9 yards a rush on first down. That is not 49ers football, and the 9ers offense is not to blame for our rush defense letting them have their way in the first quarter.

When we sign a legitimate nosetackle, we will start to see more of those 3 and outs we're accustomed to around here. Then teams wont be so confident going into the 4th quarter with their rushing attack. I guarantee it. Also those 3 and outs create more of those opportunities for us to get SOMETHING going on offense, but you already know that.

350 yards rushing against in two games and that's not a problem?
[ Edited by SFL49ER on Sep 23, 2013 at 6:07 PM ]
The 4 man front is the issue. Playing 4 de's isn't cutting it. And I think Smith is starting to show his age. Really need Tank to come in and give Smith some breathers. While also being a beast. Both smiths, brooks, & mcdonald are getting pounded. Especially in the 2nd half when the lack of rotation catches up to them.They need some guys who can play DT and clog up the middle instead of playing those 4. They need a true NT who can also play DT in 4 man front. A true NT is needed. Dorsey isn't it.
Has anyone seen Casey Hampton at the gym ?
  • Kolohe
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Originally posted by blizzuntz:
Has anyone seen Casey Hampton at the gym ?

You won't find him at the gym try Burger King.
Instead of wasting picks on injured players we need to start drafting for viable depth that can actually contribute.
Originally posted by SFL49ER:
Exactly.

Sofaking, I agree with the offense being a huge problem also but Im not going to talk about the same offensive issues in 5 different threads.

Sofa, In how many replays of the last two+ years have you seen opposing guards run totally clean up the field to engulf Willis and Bowman? Not much, until this year. Its consistent now. Im watching the plays closely at this point of attack and the center is pushing the line of scrimmage. We are giving up 5,6, and 9 yards a rush on first down. That is not 49ers football, and the 9ers offense is not to blame for our rush defense letting them have their way in the first quarter.

When we sign a legitimate nosetackle, we will start to see more of those 3 and outs we're accustomed to around here. Then teams wont be so confident going into the 4th quarter with their rushing attack. I guarantee it. Also those 3 and outs create more of those opportunities for us to get SOMETHING going on offense, but you already know that.

350 yards rushing against in two games and that's not a problem?

I hear ya bud. 350 yards is a problem, but you have to put it under context. It's so easy to say "350 yards...must be the nose tackle!". It's not that simple.

Seattle had 172 yards on 47 attempts. Our offense ran 48 plays TOTAL.
Indy had 179 yards on 39 attempts. Our offense ran 50 plays TOTAL.

Both games the 49ers offense controlled the ball for 23 minutes, a good chunk of those came in garbage time. That's PATHETIC. The offense is not sustaining drives. 98 plays in 2 games is a pathetic figure. It's up to them to win TOP and run some more plays. Down and distance has become a problem late in the 2nd half when the defense gets gassed. It's not just Dorsey, EVERYONE is getting blown off the ball as the games are progressing.

I'd be singing a different tune if we were moving the ball, but the defense was still getting gashed on the ground. But that is not what's happening.Teams have many rushing attempts on us because the offense is not scoring points or controlling the ball. Opposing teams are playing with the lead and running on a tired defense.

It's no surprise that our 2 worst run defense performances in a long while have occurred at the exact same time of our 2 worst offensive performances in a long while.
[ Edited by SofaKing on Sep 23, 2013 at 6:47 PM ]
  • Kolohe
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Also, Fangio needs to cool it with two-down lineman in Nickel formations. I swear, Wilson and Luck recognize it and then immediately check into a run play.
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by blizzuntz:
Has anyone seen Casey Hampton at the gym ?

You won't find him at the gym try Burger King.

Lol seriously, wonder how heavy a retired nose T can get in less than a year
Originally posted by SofaKing:
I hear ya bud. 350 yards is a problem, but you have to put it under context. It's so easy to say "350 yards...must be the nose tackle!". It's not that simple.

Seattle had 172 yards on 47 attempts. Our offense ran 48 plays TOTAL.
Indy had 179 yards on 39 attempts. Our offense ran 50 plays TOTAL.

Both games the 49ers offense controlled the ball for 23 minutes, a good chunk of those came in garbage time. That's PATHETIC. The offense is not sustaining drives. 98 plays in 2 games is a pathetic figure. It's up to them to win TOP and run some more plays. Down and distance has become a problem late in the 2nd half when the defense gets gassed. It's not just Dorsey, EVERYONE is getting blown off the ball as the games are progressing.

I'd be singing a different tune if we were moving the ball, but the defense was still getting gashed on the ground. But that is not what's happening.Teams have many rushing attempts on us because the offense is not scoring points or controlling the ball. Opposing teams are playing with the lead and running on a tired defense.

It's no surprise that our 2 worst run defense performances in a long while have occurred at the exact same time of our 2 worst offensive performances in a long while.

Exactly. On average the d has played 22 more snaps a game. You have to balance the equation. Actually our offense should be playing 20 more snaps than the defense. Its so obvious the defense is not the problem here. If the head was working so would the body.
^^^ I think some of you are missing the deeper point here. The REASON we allowed 47 & 39 rushing attempts is b/c our defense afforded them. The defense could NOT get off the field when they needed to and teams continued to convert 3rd downs after 3rd downs (for a variety of reasons). The OP was merely pointing our that if we have a triple-threat NT rotation of fatties like how GB used in Raji/Jolly/Pickett, we TOO could stuff the inside run, step-up lanes and allow our outside rush to get there and help the secondary tremendously as a consequence. While Dorsey is not the sole problem, he is not a two-gap NT, a top notch one-gap NT and we have zero depth behind him. And aside from Dobbs, we aren't using a rotation at all. McDonald is hurt, Justin is forced to slide inside eliminating his pass rush while teams run right at him and Aldon, etc. It snow balls over time. If you watch the LOS, just about every time, our DL is getting moved backwards INTO our ILB's and they are getting washed out. In the end, when a team is averaging at least 4 yards a carry, they are dominating and are in much better position to dictate our defense on either 2nd or 3rd downs. The NT and it's rotation is CENTRAL to any 3-4 defense. Everything starts with the NT. And this is a position we have ignored since Vince Wilfork. It seems many fans in here continue to dismiss it as well and we are seeing the exact same trend again this year esp. against power running teams. And a sad note to this domination is injuries...we are seeing those aleady through just 3 games. Expect many more to come...
^ great post.

Its fact that you have to have a NT in your base downs against running and balanced teams when you run a 3/4. Power rush teams are goi g to eat us alive if we don't do something and that will keep our offense even more from getting on the field and getting something going.
I thought the Ted Washington reference was noteworthy. Hampton could provide depth along with something this team really has never had..a true NT
http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/ron-cook/loss-of-casey-hampton-big-in-2-ways-684599/
  • Kolohe
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Originally posted by SofaKing:
I hear ya bud. 350 yards is a problem, but you have to put it under context. It's so easy to say "350 yards...must be the nose tackle!". It's not that simple.

Seattle had 172 yards on 47 attempts. Our offense ran 48 plays TOTAL.
Indy had 179 yards on 39 attempts. Our offense ran 50 plays TOTAL.

Both games the 49ers offense controlled the ball for 23 minutes, a good chunk of those came in garbage time. That's PATHETIC. The offense is not sustaining drives. 98 plays in 2 games is a pathetic figure. It's up to them to win TOP and run some more plays. Down and distance has become a problem late in the 2nd half when the defense gets gassed. It's not just Dorsey, EVERYONE is getting blown off the ball as the games are progressing.

I'd be singing a different tune if we were moving the ball, but the defense was still getting gashed on the ground. But that is not what's happening.Teams have many rushing attempts on us because the offense is not scoring points or controlling the ball. Opposing teams are playing with the lead and running on a tired defense.

It's no surprise that our 2 worst run defense performances in a long while have occurred at the exact same time of our 2 worst offensive performances in a long while.

(to the bold) Actually that's not true, the run defense still has struggle a bit during the Green Bay game. Actually the middle of the D-line struggled during the GB game. they are being pushed around. Believe it or not, many here are not really high on Sopoaga but he controlled the middle and forced runs outside.

And I get the whole offensive struggles, but go back and watch the game, and you'll see the middle of the defense getting washed no matter what point in the game. Point of most concerns here is getting someone that is a bit more stout.
u are the only one who thinks this. what do u think dorsey an williams are. have you seen them?