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Receivers

Originally posted by Rascal:
Originally posted by buck:
If you were talking about only Baldwin, the claim that we never utilize our players makes no sense whatsoever. You should choose your words with more care.

Your complaint is that Harbaugh did not use Baldwin in the first three games, correct.

I am willing to bet that Baldwin is active for the next game. I am hoping that he plays well and becomes an integral part of our passing game.

I am not sure Baldwin should have been active for the first three games. He has not been here very long.

We do not know if he had learned the play book. We do not know what he has looked like in practice.

Remember, that there is a red flag that comes with Baldwin, and it seems to be associated with his head.

Andy Reid, who is no dummy, was perfectly willing to trade Baldwin for AJ Jenkins. Reid lost patience with him very quickly.
That does not speak very highly of Baldwin.

If Baldwin is a problematic player, and there are plenty of indications that he is, activating him immediately might have been a mistake.

An immediate activation could have enabled him to think that he has no problems that need fixing.

Making him earn his place on the active roster on the other hand sends a good message. Here is the message that may have been intended.

We do not really care what happened in KC or in college. We were willing to trade for you. We care about what you do here in SF.

If you show us that you have the drive and skills, you will play here, but you have to earn it with us.

Now, the fact of the matter is we do not know much about what has transpired between the coaching staff and Baldwin.

If you, and others, want to make the assumption that Harbaugh made a mistake in his dealing with Baldwin, go for it.

It just seems more than a bit premature to me.


No, is not just Baldwin, it was Brandon Jacobs as well as AJ Jenkins as some have pointed out (although not me personally as I felt I had already seen enough).

But, let's focus on Baldwin here for the purpose of this discussion, first off, the playbook argument is weak or even simply invalid.

Why ? Does one need to know the entire 785 pages of the playbook before one can play ? No.

Can a player be utilized on certain packages for certain specific situations say by learning 10 plays to begin with ? Yes.

And by the way, this is not something that I invented cos many teams do it. If not, how the hell can Trenton Richardson be traded and played in an away game within a matter of days ? Do you mean to tell me he had already learnt the entire playbook within 3 days ? Does he have a photographic memory ?? Surely not, right ?

And to add, Jon Baldwin is from the 2011 draft class while Richardson is from the 2012 draft class, in other words he has even more real game experience than Richardson. So, are you saying he can't even handle memorizing only a handful of plays not to mention he already possesses a healthy base knowledge from the West Coast Offense carry-over from the Chiefs ?

As for "earning your spot", well do you think Richardson had already "earned" his starting spot before the game when he was immediately named a starter by Chuck Pagano at the trade press conference ? He has been to what ? May be a couple of Colts practices ? Oh and they already had Ahmad Bradshaw, a guy who gashed us twice when he was with the Giants and is still gashing us now as evident on last Sunday's game. But, yes they still decided to play Richardson right away cos they believed he could contribute.

Baldwin has already been with the 9ers for at least 5 weeks ? Has any of his so-called "red flags" resurfaced thus far ? I haven't heard anything, have you ?

Then you look at how the current receiving corps has been playing, KW's performance has been very so so or even subpar in the eyes of some. What do you do then ? You rotate and try out others. Actually, Badlwin is the ONLY receiver we have left on the 53 who is yet to play a game. It is not like we have a truckload of options to go to.

I am not the only person on earth who is asking to try out Baldwin. There are many posters here who are asking the same. Heck, even the media is asking the same question.

Just try him out, at least see what he can bring. If he plays well let him continue, if not take him out and give him a bit more time in practice that's all. What's wrong with that ? Nothing.

I totally agree with you Rascal. Baldwin should have been playing 2 games ago. There is nothing special about KW or Moore. I would even play the rookie Patton ahead of those guys. We should of kept Collie instead of Moore. One catch for 6 yds is not impressive.
Member Milestone: This is post number 600 for olapac.
Originally posted by Rascal:
Originally posted by olapac:
Why is everyone hating on his return skills? He avg. almost 30 yrds per return last year. And he had a big one in the New England game when momentum was on their side and they tied it up. His return put us into Patriot territory and Crabtree scored the next play. We have to get the ball in our playmakers hands and he's one of the few we have.

Baldwin has to play, but my concern is this: If he's open, will Kap throw him the ball? I'm getting the impression that Kap won't throw it unless he's comfortable with the WR and the 4th game of the season (when you're 1-2 and scored 10 points over 2 games) isn't the time to be building camaraderie and getting in sync.


Not hating and is also not just on his return skills neither. To me, he is just too small, not particularly fast, lacks power, explosiveness and easy to bring down. If it were up to me, I wouldn't have drafted him, but that's just me.

As to whether Kap would throw to Baldwin, well guess what ? I think at this point Kap would jump at the chance to throw to anyone who can compete for the ball. Baldwin has the size even if he is covered especially for jump balls. Kap just can't key in on Anquan cos teams know better to double-team him now. That's why I said he can help to dilute the coverage on both Anquan and himself. If we can accomplish that, Moore and Patton can help us stretch the field.

Hating was probably the wrong word - my bad. Just a bit on edge. It's been frustrating as hell watching this team's offense over the last 2 games.

Hopefully Baldwin gets in and helps us move the chains, control the clock and get a win. 2-2 with a few extra days to get ready for Houston isn't the end of the world. 1-3 would be disastrous.
  • mayo49
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 20,846
Williams must have pictures of Harbaugh and Baalke or something, because I can't figure out how this guy continues to get playing time at the #2. Baldwin and Patton are the next best after Boldin.
Originally posted by mayo49:
Williams must have pictures of Harbaugh and Baalke or something, because I can't figure out how this guy continues to get playing time at the #2. Baldwin and Patton are the next best after Boldin.

I think people forget that prior to 2012, Kyle Williams had the best hands of our receivers. He can pluck and snatch the ball with the best of them. He's also very quick in and out of his cuts. There IS a reason why Kyle is still relevant and above other receivers. Send him to NOLA and he would produce like Lance Moore does. Send him to NE, and... well, you get the idea.
  • mayo49
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 20,846
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Originally posted by mayo49:
Williams must have pictures of Harbaugh and Baalke or something, because I can't figure out how this guy continues to get playing time at the #2. Baldwin and Patton are the next best after Boldin.

I think people forget that prior to 2012, Kyle Williams had the best hands of our receivers. He can pluck and snatch the ball with the best of them. He's also very quick in and out of his cuts. There IS a reason why Kyle is still relevant and above other receivers. Send him to NOLA and he would produce like Lance Moore does. Send him to NE, and... well, you get the idea.


I don't question his hands, it's his ability to get separation is what's killing our passing game right now. Heck, why not throw Baldwin in there and have him go for some jump balls? Anything to get the chains moving. I think Williams can be a key special teams member, I just don't think he adds much to our receiving core at the moment.
Originally posted by mayo49:
I don't question his hands, it's his ability to get separation is what's killing our passing game right now. Heck, why not throw Baldwin in there and have him go for some jump balls? Anything to get the chains moving. I think Williams can be a key special teams member, I just don't think he adds much to our receiving core at the moment.

Duly noted.. I remain less convinced of this separation issue.
Has anyone seen Pattons playing time mentioned anywhere. I was just curious how many snaps he has been getting in the games. I have not seen him in much yet but he did look good in the last to pre season games.
Originally posted by Rascal:
Originally posted by olapac:
Why is everyone hating on his return skills? He avg. almost 30 yrds per return last year. And he had a big one in the New England game when momentum was on their side and they tied it up. His return put us into Patriot territory and Crabtree scored the next play. We have to get the ball in our playmakers hands and he's one of the few we have.

Baldwin has to play, but my concern is this: If he's open, will Kap throw him the ball? I'm getting the impression that Kap won't throw it unless he's comfortable with the WR and the 4th game of the season (when you're 1-2 and scored 10 points over 2 games) isn't the time to be building camaraderie and getting in sync.


Not hating and is also not just on his return skills neither. To me, he is just too small, not particularly fast, lacks power, explosiveness and easy to bring down. If it were up to me, I wouldn't have drafted him, but that's just me.

As to whether Kap would throw to Baldwin, well guess what ? I think at this point Kap would jump at the chance to throw to anyone who can compete for the ball. Baldwin has the size even if he is covered especially for jump balls. Kap just can't key in on Anquan cos teams know better to double-team him now. That's why I said he can help to dilute the coverage on both Anquan and himself. If we can accomplish that, Moore and Patton can help us stretch the field.

i dont think lmj is that bad and hes great on KR. we need a spark and a player with his speed can only help.
  • buck
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 9,735
Originally posted by Rascal:
No, is not just Baldwin, it was Brandon Jacobs as well as AJ Jenkins as some have pointed out (although not me personally as I felt I had already seen enough).

But, let's focus on Baldwin here for the purpose of this discussion, first off, the playbook argument is weak or even simply invalid.

Why ? Does one need to know the entire 785 pages of the playbook before one can play ? No.

Can a player be utilized on certain packages for certain specific situations say by learning 10 plays to begin with ? Yes.

And by the way, this is not something that I invented cos many teams do it. If not, how the hell can Trenton Richardson be traded and played in an away game within a matter of days ? Do you mean to tell me he had already learnt the entire playbook within 3 days ? Does he have a photographic memory ?? Surely not, right ?

And to add, Jon Baldwin is from the 2011 draft class while Richardson is from the 2012 draft class, in other words he has even more real game experience than Richardson. So, are you saying he can't even handle memorizing only a handful of plays not to mention he already possesses a healthy base knowledge from the West Coast Offense carry-over from the Chiefs ?

As for "earning your spot", well do you think Richardson had already "earned" his starting spot before the game when he was immediately named a starter by Chuck Pagano at the trade press conference ? He has been to what ? May be a couple of Colts practices ? Oh and they already had Ahmad Bradshaw, a guy who gashed us twice when he was with the Giants and is still gashing us now as evident on last Sunday's game. But, yes they still decided to play Richardson right away cos they believed he could contribute.

Baldwin has already been with the 9ers for at least 5 weeks ? Has any of his so-called "red flags" resurfaced thus far ? I haven't heard anything, have you ?

Then you look at how the current receiving corps has been playing, KW's performance has been very so so or even subpar in the eyes of some. What do you do then ? You rotate and try out others. Actually, Badlwin is the ONLY receiver we have left on the 53 who is yet to play a game. It is not like we have a truckload of options to go to.

I am not the only person on earth who is asking to try out Baldwin. There are many posters here who are asking the same. Heck, even the media is asking the same question.

Just try him out, at least see what he can bring. If he plays well let him continue, if not take him out and give him a bit more time in practice that's all. What's wrong with that ? Nothing.

First, Baldwin.

As I said, I think he will be activated this week. So, we will see. You think he should have been activated in the first three games.

As I said, I am not so sure. We do not know to what degree learning the play book is an issue. But, I will concede that he could have been put in for a few plays.

You did ignore my point about having Baldwin earning his spot and its importance because of his red flags. Baldwin has had a reputation for being a head case ever since he days in college. Andy Reid quit on Baldwin for a reason.

If the coaching staff feels that Baldwin has to earn his spot as a step in cleaning up his act, so be it. We have not heard anything, but that does not mean there is not anything there. This is an important point, we have not heard anything. We do not know all that much.

As you know, my original reaction was to your assertion that we never utilize our players.

Now, you are saying that Baldwin, Jacobs, and AJ Jenkins are examples that show we never use our players.

For the sake of argument, I will concede that Harbaugh should have played each of those three players sooner or more often.
Again, this concession is only for this argument.

How does not using three players sufficiently = never utilizing our players?

That was your assertion. I do not expect you to acknowledge that this assertion is so exaggerated that it has little or no merit.

Anyway, if we look at those three players. Jacobs has not been doing very well in New York. AJ Jenkins has not been great in KC.
And we have no concrete or specific information about what has been happening with Baldwin.

Again, I hope that Baldwin is active for the Rams game. I hope he plays, and I hope he plays really well.

Your willingness to use exaggerations and unfounded speculations to criticize Harbaugh and Baalke seems both boundless and endless.




Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Originally posted by mayo49:
Williams must have pictures of Harbaugh and Baalke or something, because I can't figure out how this guy continues to get playing time at the #2. Baldwin and Patton are the next best after Boldin.

I think people forget that prior to 2012, Kyle Williams had the best hands of our receivers. He can pluck and snatch the ball with the best of them. He's also very quick in and out of his cuts. There IS a reason why Kyle is still relevant and above other receivers. Send him to NOLA and he would produce like Lance Moore does. Send him to NE, and... well, you get the idea.

Disagree about Williams. He isn't a consistent WR IMO. He needs to be benched, and cut when Mario comes back, or when Crabs is back. Better to let him go now. He has regressed, and hasn't shown crap this year. He can't catch anything thrown his way. Patton and Baldwin would be better suited at #2. It's sad when Kyle Williams is #2, and on most teams he would be no better than 4th or 5th, or inactive on game days. Just my opinion though.
Originally posted by AB81Rules:
Disagree about Williams. He isn't a consistent WR IMO. He needs to be benched, and cut when Mario comes back, or when Crabs is back. Better to let him go now. He has regressed, and hasn't shown crap this year. He can't catch anything thrown his way. Patton and Baldwin would be better suited at #2. It's sad when Kyle Williams is #2, and on most teams he would be no better than 4th or 5th, or inactive on game days. Just my opinion though.

Agree about Kyle. He's nothing more than a 4th WR at best. There will be WR cuts when Mario and Crab return, although I don't think it will be Kyle. The coaching staff seems to like KW, and he has some return ability to add value as a 4th/5th WR. Most likely Moore and Osgood get cut. Shame, I think Moore should be getting KW's snaps right now.
Cam Inman ‏@CamInman19m
WR Jon Baldwin wearing a scout-team jersey, so maybe #49ers aren't ready to have him debut in favor of Moore or Patton



WOMP WOMP
Originally posted by niners9ers:
Cam Inman ‏@CamInman19m
WR Jon Baldwin wearing a scout-team jersey, so maybe #49ers aren't ready to have him debut in favor of Moore or Patton



WOMP WOMP

We need WRs who can gain separation and catch the ball. Baldwin does neither very well so who cares about him.

Sit KW. Play Patton and Moore.
Originally posted by SofaKing:
Originally posted by niners9ers:
Cam Inman ‏@CamInman19m
WR Jon Baldwin wearing a scout-team jersey, so maybe #49ers aren't ready to have him debut in favor of Moore or Patton



WOMP WOMP

We need WRs who can gain separation and catch the ball. Baldwin does neither very well so who cares about him.

Sit KW. Play Patton and Moore.
moore sucks too tho. he caught like one pass in the preseason and became our starter some how
Originally posted by hondakillerzx:
Originally posted by SofaKing:
Originally posted by niners9ers:
Cam Inman ‏@CamInman19m
WR Jon Baldwin wearing a scout-team jersey, so maybe #49ers aren't ready to have him debut in favor of Moore or Patton



WOMP WOMP

We need WRs who can gain separation and catch the ball. Baldwin does neither very well so who cares about him.

Sit KW. Play Patton and Moore.
moore sucks too tho. he caught like one pass in the preseason and became our starter some how

KW has ran about 100 routes in 3 games. Patton and Moore have combined for 50. That's ridiculous. No way is KW so superior that he has double the snaps of those two combined. We need to mix in different guys, because KW cannot handle this workload.
[ Edited by SofaKing on Sep 24, 2013 at 6:03 PM ]