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Game 2 Assessment:

Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
... and it IS a valid concern.

... and that does NOT mean everyone is ready to panic and jump off a cliff.


Go Niners!!!!

Bingo...the flip side is that when we win, we typically win in every facet of the game and dominate. Right now, Seattle has our number up in Seattle, like we have Green Bay's number anywhere. I'm still confident in this coaching staff despite the patterns/red flags!
A lot has been talked about on game-planning and playcalling. I would just like to talk a little about special teams for a moment. I don't know whether it is just me, but I thought the coverage unit was all over the place. It was almost like they didn't have specific blocking formations. Golden Tate is really only an average returner and yet he made it look so easy to evade our guys. Needless to say, our own returners were just atrocious. Punts blowing over the head of Kyle Williams and the fumble by Cox were just plain loose and hardly professional.

By the way, can we sign back Hawkins now ? Or at least find some other free agent who can actually return ? I hope they are not waiting for LMJ to come back cos he is hopeless as well.
Thanks NC--great job as usual! You always do a great job responding to other posters as well...never defensive or abusive.

One item I was thinking about is the HC/QB relationship. Harbaugh might have to temper his sideline antics now that he has a younger QB. Smith seemed to be able to help keep JH's feet on the ground by being calm and rational during games. But you can't expect that from CK in his second year as a starter. His HC needs to stop foaming at the mouth and help the guy realize what's happening on the field. Just a minor criticism of Harbaugh but might be significant.
Originally posted by Rascal:
A lot has been talked about on game-planning and playcalling. I would just like to talk a little about special teams for a moment. I don't know whether it is just me, but I thought the coverage unit was all over the place. It was almost like they didn't have specific blocking formations. Golden Tate is really only an average returner and yet he made it look so easy to evade our guys. Needless to say, our own returners were just atrocious. Punts blowing over the head of Kyle Williams and the fumble by Cox were just plain loose and hardly professional.

By the way, can we sign back Hawkins now ? Or at least find some other free agent who can actually return ? I hope they are not waiting for LMJ to come back cos he is hopeless as well.

Agreed, this was one of my top needs in my Team Needs thread coming into the season and I never felt it was properly addressed. I love that we have a kicker who is strong enough to kick the ball out of the back of the EZ but if there IS a return, I still wince every time. And like you noted, the Hawks were getting it at the 50 every time.

Top Kickoff Coverage Unit/Ace Kick-Punt Returner - Our best gunners this pre season by far were Lockette, Morris and Osgood. All are gone (edit - Osgood is back). And Moore may not be playing gunner on ST either if he is a primary WR (edit - clearly he is not). This is an ignored area of concern and it cost us in the NFCCG and Superbowl and it still affected us greatly in pre season. Cox has looked better than James (injured) but nobody would classify him as "dynamic/electric" and nobody fears him taking it to the house every time he touches the ball (like we do against every team we face, it seems). While some teams have 2 dynamic returners, we can't seem to find one. Now Patton is being tried out, Williams is back but hasn't taken a snap all pre season and Hawkins was cut; he looked like the only real viable "dynamic" returner who has some "it" to him. We seem to have good interior guys but not lightning speed outside. Spillman and Brock will rack up the tackles again on the outside but these are the same two gunners as last year and that unit was average, at best. Raymond Ventrone was given to Seely but he is also expected to be cut when others return and come off the NFI/PUP list. I'm expecting Seely to resign any day now. LOL

Read more at http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/niners/171861-team-needs-updates/page32/#LgPFgD4DeR0mpsEi.99
[ Edited by NCommand on Sep 18, 2013 at 7:55 AM ]
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
... and it IS a valid concern.

... and that does NOT mean everyone is ready to panic and jump off a cliff.


Go Niners!!!!

Bingo...the flip side is that when we win, we typically win in every facet of the game and dominate. Right now, Seattle has our number up in Seattle, like we have Green Bay's number anywhere. I'm still confident in this coaching staff despite the patterns/red flags!


I will go one up on you. I truly believe the Seahawks have our number disregard of playing location. I am just going to be totally honest from now on instead of pretending to be positive when I am not. I am quite sure they can beat us at the Stick based on what I have seen in the 2 previous beat downs.

I have nothing to lose and I really hope I am wrong. But, based on my own assessment, this is what I am seeing. The only thing that will be on our side is that some of our injured players will be back such as Mario, may be Tank, and may be Moody. Mind you, they will too, they didn't even have Irvin, Clemons and Harvin. I can't imagine what they will be like when they are at full strength.
Originally posted by Rascal:
I will go one up on you. I truly believe the Seahawks have our number disregard of playing location. I am just going to be totally honest from now on instead of pretending to be positive when I am not. I am quite sure they can beat us at the Stick based on what I have seen in the 2 previous beat downs.

I have nothing to lose and I really hope I am wrong. But, based on my own assessment, this is what I am seeing. The only thing that will be on our side is that some of our injured players will be back such as Mario, may be Tank, and may be Moody. Mind you, they will too, they didn't even have Irvin, Clemons and Harvin. I can't imagine what they will be like when they are at full strength.

It's fair. They were built to beat us and have establish a "physical" culture and the NFL allows their style of play. I'm blown away by this given that "safety" seems to be the major theme for everyone else in the NFL...helmet can't be part of the hit, can't touch a WR in any fashion anymore beyond 5 yards, can only tackle in the strike zone, etc. But Seattle is allowed to, literally, throw our WR's on the ground and man-handle WR's well, WELL down the field; continue on after the play, etc. To put it in perspective, they had ONE illegal contact penalty and that was late in the 4Q. Obviously, when a guy like Culliver is equally physical in the Superbowl, he gets a critical P.I. Same with Nnamdi in this game (who even turned his head around and did not impede the route or WR in any way).

That said, they do have the best secondary in all of football and heck, I'd take Thurmond over any of our CB's. They had added a lethal amount of pass rushes and continue to play their style of offense: rush to set up the long ball. It's pretty simple. They are also a very good ad lib team with Wilson at the helm.

Now, all this said, IMHO, we clearly have the personnel to abuse them if used properly. But therein lies my biggest concern. We seem to add more and more personnel, deeper, more weapons but come game day, never seem to use them or use them consistently/properly. Seattle has played us the exact same way the past three gmes and have played their game the exact same way. So how do we counter? Well according to Roman, we played vanilla last year up in Seattle. And this year, it looks like we played even MORE vanilla. So what gives?
I have been noticing a trend the past few years. There are always dominant teams in the playoffs one year, then maybe 3-4 of those teams make it the following year. I remember when the Titans had that great season and fell off instantly when Kerry Collins was QB. Pittsburgh was making the playoffs every year but it seems they have lost talent and Big Ben isn't what he used to be. The Eagles had that great year with Vick and was expected to do big things last year. They finished with a losing record. The Giants are constantly up-and-down. It looks like Baltimore is on the decline? The only true team to consistently win the past 11 years have been the Patriots. It is almost expected of them to be in the playoffs at least.

Is it the 49ers time? The low of averages and probabilities states we should have a down year. It is impossible to win every year and Seattle looks damn good (at home at least). I am hoping and praying this game does not destroy them mentally. Seattle appears to have that "it" factor we had in 2011.

Things just went right for us that year all the time. Lucky bounces like that interception in the first quarter that completely changed the dynamic of the Seattle game. Stuff like that happened all the time to the Niners in 2011. A good example would be the Justin Smith strip-fumble on Vick up in Philly. That thing could have easily rolled out of bounds and the Eagles would have had the ball at the 50 with plenty of time left to win that game. But it didn't and that game was the jump-off to that great 2011 season campaign.

I hope this game was not the jump-off for Seattle this year. The Niners cannot lay-down! I hope it was just a slip-up and can bounce back in a big way against the Colts.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Rascal:
A lot has been talked about on game-planning and playcalling. I would just like to talk a little about special teams for a moment. I don't know whether it is just me, but I thought the coverage unit was all over the place. It was almost like they didn't have specific blocking formations. Golden Tate is really only an average returner and yet he made it look so easy to evade our guys. Needless to say, our own returners were just atrocious. Punts blowing over the head of Kyle Williams and the fumble by Cox were just plain loose and hardly professional.

By the way, can we sign back Hawkins now ? Or at least find some other free agent who can actually return ? I hope they are not waiting for LMJ to come back cos he is hopeless as well.

Agreed, this was one of my top needs in my Team Needs thread coming into the season and I never felt it was properly addressed. I love that we have a kicker who is strong enough to kick the ball out of the back of the EZ but if there IS a return, I still wince every time. And like you noted, the Hawks were getting it at the 50 every time.

Top Kickoff Coverage Unit/Ace Kick-Punt Returner - Our best gunners this pre season by far were Lockette, Morris and Osgood. All are gone (edit - Osgood is back). And Moore may not be playing gunner on ST either if he is a primary WR (edit - clearly he is not). This is an ignored area of concern and it cost us in the NFCCG and Superbowl and it still affected us greatly in pre season. Cox has looked better than James (injured) but nobody would classify him as "dynamic/electric" and nobody fears him taking it to the house every time he touches the ball (like we do against every team we face, it seems). While some teams have 2 dynamic returners, we can't seem to find one. Now Patton is being tried out, Williams is back but hasn't taken a snap all pre season and Hawkins was cut; he looked like the only real viable "dynamic" returner who has some "it" to him. We seem to have good interior guys but not lightning speed outside. Spillman and Brock will rack up the tackles again on the outside but these are the same two gunners as last year and that unit was average, at best. Raymond Ventrone was given to Seely but he is also expected to be cut when others return and come off the NFI/PUP list. I'm expecting Seely to resign any day now. LOL

Read more at http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/niners/171861-team-needs-updates/page32/#LgPFgD4DeR0mpsEi.99


I really don't know what the answer is if we are so crap in evaluating and retaining talents. When we only by chance found something in Hawkins, we cut him. I honestly believe he was cut because of prejudice. Yes, the kid caused the 2 penalties in preseason, but he apologized and I guess that still wasn't enough for Harbaugh. Just look at the type of guys Harbaugh likes, all "yes sir" types. Did you watch the Marecic interview ? I have never come across such a polite and softly spoken football player in my life !! LOL. I just think special teams is an area that they don't care much about and is going to cost us. Remember when the Texans cut Holiday ? Why didn't we pursue the kid ? Cos we like LMJ more than him ? Are you sh*tting me ?! Holiday has been creaming it with his returns left, right and center.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Thanks NC--great job as usual! You always do a great job responding to other posters as well...never defensive or abusive.

One item I was thinking about is the HC/QB relationship. Harbaugh might have to temper his sideline antics now that he has a younger QB. Smith seemed to be able to help keep JH's feet on the ground by being calm and rational during games. But you can't expect that from CK in his second year as a starter. His HC needs to stop foaming at the mouth and help the guy realize what's happening on the field. Just a minor criticism of Harbaugh but might be significant.

Damn, dtg. That is a very cool point that I had not really considered. I am not watching the sidelines closely to say whether Jim does this with Kaep or not... but if not? I agree that he needs to be doing that.
Originally posted by Rascal:
I really don't know what the answer is if we are so crap in evaluating and retaining talents. When we only by chance found something in Hawkins, we cut him. I honestly believe he was cut because of prejudice. Yes, the kid caused the 2 penalties in preseason, but he apologized and I guess that still wasn't enough for Harbaugh. Just look at the type of guys Harbaugh likes, all "yes sir" types. Did you watch the Marecic interview ? I have never come across such a polite and softly spoken football player in my life !! LOL. I just think special teams is an area that they don't care much about and is going to cost us. Remember when the Texans cut Holiday ? Why didn't we pursue the kid ? Cos we like LMJ more than him ? Are you sh*tting me ?! Holiday has been creaming it with his returns left, right and center.

Sadly, Ginn returned a couple for a TD this pre season AND had a TD as a WR last w/e.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Thanks NC--great job as usual! You always do a great job responding to other posters as well...never defensive or abusive.

One item I was thinking about is the HC/QB relationship. Harbaugh might have to temper his sideline antics now that he has a younger QB. Smith seemed to be able to help keep JH's feet on the ground by being calm and rational during games. But you can't expect that from CK in his second year as a starter. His HC needs to stop foaming at the mouth and help the guy realize what's happening on the field. Just a minor criticism of Harbaugh but might be significant.

Thank you dtg_9er. No need to be confrontational here. We're all on the same team...I try my best to point out the positives and negatives, strengths and weaknesses, be objective. If I do speak with conviction, it's b/c a lot of evidence has lead me that way. And I'll point it out whether people want to hear it or not and let them challenge it...come up with their own conclusions. "We're the 49ers...we can do what we want." This applies to the fans as well...and both are fallible.

This is a great point and we have already seen how Harbaugh backed him up in the media. His demeanor DOES rub off on his QB. They are one. You don't think so? Listen to a CK interview...ANY interview. It is so forced and awkward just like a Harbaugh interview.
[ Edited by NCommand on Sep 18, 2013 at 8:47 AM ]
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Rascal:
I will go one up on you. I truly believe the Seahawks have our number disregard of playing location. I am just going to be totally honest from now on instead of pretending to be positive when I am not. I am quite sure they can beat us at the Stick based on what I have seen in the 2 previous beat downs.

I have nothing to lose and I really hope I am wrong. But, based on my own assessment, this is what I am seeing. The only thing that will be on our side is that some of our injured players will be back such as Mario, may be Tank, and may be Moody. Mind you, they will too, they didn't even have Irvin, Clemons and Harvin. I can't imagine what they will be like when they are at full strength.

It's fair. They were built to beat us and have establish a "physical" culture and the NFL allows their style of play. I'm blown away by this given that "safety" seems to be the major theme for everyone else in the NFL...helmet can't be part of the hit, can't touch a WR in any fashion anymore beyond 5 yards, can only tackle in the strike zone, etc. But Seattle is allowed to, literally, throw our WR's on the ground and man-handle WR's well, WELL down the field; continue on after the play, etc. To put it in perspective, they had ONE illegal contact penalty and that was late in the 4Q. Obviously, when a guy like Culliver is equally physical in the Superbowl, he gets a critical P.I. Same with Nnamdi in this game (who even turned his head around and did not impede the route or WR in any way).

That said, they do have the best secondary in all of football and heck, I'd take Thurmond over any of our CB's. They had added a lethal amount of pass rushes and continue to play their style of offense: rush to set up the long ball. It's pretty simple. They are also a very good ad lib team with Wilson at the helm.

Now, all this said, IMHO, we clearly have the personnel to abuse them if used properly. But therein lies my biggest concern. We seem to add more and more personnel, deeper, more weapons but come game day, never seem to use them or use them consistently/properly. Seattle has played us the exact same way the past three gmes and have played their game the exact same way. So how do we counter? Well according to Roman, we played vanilla last year up in Seattle. And this year, it looks like we played even MORE vanilla. So what gives?


Yes, one, they are literally built to beat us, may be spurred by Carroll's hatred of Harbaugh, but whatever the reason I can't fault them cos they have built one heck of a football team.

Yes, the refs were terrible, but I don't think there is much we can do about that.

As for their secondary, they are without doubt the very best of the entire NFL. Any of their guys, not just CBs, but safeties are better than ours, although I do like how Eric Reid is developing.

Now, to your point about whether we have the personnel to abuse them, yes I do believe certain guys can do it. But, I see an over-arching problem here. That is our overall team culture. The way Harbaugh likes to run his crew is in a classy way. Sounds great and there is nothing wrong with that. But, what I am sensing is that it takes a little off from the players. As compared to the Seahawks, I think we play with less or even without an edge. Their guys on the other hand are determined to punish us with every play. Their mindset is literally to kill us and take our players out of the game. This is evident with the truckload of serious injuries ever since the last game in December. In both games we have sustained season-ending injuries. This simply cannot carry on. Our guys need to be told and motivated to up their physicality with their plays. Remember what Vernon was like when we first drafted him ? The guy played with an edge and anger, yes he cost us penalties, but that edge can be reined in and harnessed whereby our guys can play with an equally lethal amount of controlled aggression. Look at Vernon now, he is playing like an absolute gentleman these days which really is not the way to go when you go up against a team like the Seahawks. If we can re-instill this very killer instinct back into our players' mentality, sure we have enough big guys that can put some hurt on the Seahawks. We need to meet them with more force to shock them and let them know we will be more than happy to fxxk them up if they try anything funny.
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
... and it IS a valid concern.

... and that does NOT mean everyone is ready to panic and jump off a cliff.


Go Niners!!!!

Changed your mind then? You're one of the people that in another thread got your hackles up when I dared mention that there were some concerns with the 49ers defense, particularly as it pertained to defending the run. I clearly stated D hasn't been awful, the offense didn't help vs. SEA, it's not panic mode, but there are some areas of concern, regardless if you want to look at just these first 2 games this year or also include the tail end of last year. Your retorts were basically Lynch's 3.5 YPC, I/others are "dumping on the defense", and agreed with someone who said my observations were "totally absurd".
The cup of intellectual honesty runneth over...
[ Edited by DelCed2486 on Sep 18, 2013 at 8:57 AM ]
Originally posted by DelCed2486:
Changed your mind then? You're one of the people that in another thread got your hackles up when I dared mention that there were some concerns with the 49ers defense, particularly as it pertained to defending the run. I clearly stated D hasn't been awful, the offense didn't help vs. SEA, it's not panic mode, but there are some areas of concern, regardless if you want to look at just these first 2 games this year or also include the tail end of last year. Your retorts were basically Lynch's 3.5 YPC, I/others are "dumping on the defense", and agreed with someone who said my observations were "totally absurd".
The cup of intellectual honesty runneth over...

I disagree with the premise that our D played poorly and cost us the game. That is all I will say on this, as everything else I wanted to say was said. I don't think I care for your tone or where this is headed... lots of anger being misdirected today.. so I will say good day.
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Originally posted by DelCed2486:
Changed your mind then? You're one of the people that in another thread got your hackles up when I dared mention that there were some concerns with the 49ers defense, particularly as it pertained to defending the run. I clearly stated D hasn't been awful, the offense didn't help vs. SEA, it's not panic mode, but there are some areas of concern, regardless if you want to look at just these first 2 games this year or also include the tail end of last year. Your retorts were basically Lynch's 3.5 YPC, I/others are "dumping on the defense", and agreed with someone who said my observations were "totally absurd".
The cup of intellectual honesty runneth over...

I disagree with the premise that our D played poorly and cost us the game. That is all I will say on this, as everything else I wanted to say was said. I don't think I care for your tone or where this is headed... lots of anger being misdirected today.. so I will say good day.


Who said the D cost the 49ers the game? I didn't. Merely mentioned they got gouged in the run game, especially up the middle. Don't care for my tone? Yeah, guess it sucks when you get called on your, shall we say, "inconsistency" on this issue. So odd how "all you had to say on this" wasn't said to the OP of this thread, who stated some of the very same things I did in regard to the defense. So strange indeed...