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Game 2 Assessment:

Originally posted by threelittlebirds:
The NFL will not call every penalty in order to keep a nice flow to the game and keep the game under 3-3.5 hours. With the approach of grabbing and holding you'll more than likely get called for holding instead of PI so when they do flag you, your team will only lose 5 yards, no big deal. So, to keep the flow of the game going the officials will start to ignore most of the penalties and then eventually they ignore nearly all of those penalties. Which is where we are with both Seattle and the Packers, but Seattle is smarter about it since they got 2 big guys to cheat instead of the smaller guys GB has

Nailed it...this is the "culture" I was referring too. Like the Ravens, they created a culture whereby it's expected that this is how they play and as a result, typiclly get the benefit of the doubt with a few "holding" calls thrown in for good measure. The only issue I have with this in general is when the OTHER team is unable to play within the context of the same game and instead, gets called for P.I.'s.
[ Edited by NCommand on Sep 19, 2013 at 1:12 PM ]
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by threelittlebirds:
The NFL will not call every penalty in order to keep a nice flow to the game and keep the game under 3-3.5 hours. With the approach of grabbing and holding you'll more than likely get called for holding instead of PI so when they do flag you, your team will only lose 5 yards, no big deal. So, to keep the flow of the game going the officials will start to ignore most of the penalties and then eventually they ignore nearly all of those penalties. Which is where we are with both Seattle and the Packers, but Seattle is smarter about it since they got 2 big guys to cheat instead of the smaller guys GB has

Nailed it...this is the "culture" I was referring too. Like the Ravens, they created a culture whereby it's expected that this is how they play and as a result, typiclly get the benefit of the doubt with a few "holding" calls thrown in for good measure. The only issue I have with this in general is when the OTHER team is unable to play within the context of the same game and instead, gets called for P.I.'s.

You seriously don't have a problem with a team actively employing the tactic of "well the NFL won't call a penalty on every single play so we will commit a penalty every single play and in the end it will benefit us?" I think it is BS. Start enforcing all penalties, make all the teams play within the rules. There is no point in having rules if you don't enforce them.
  • buck
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Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by threelittlebirds:
The NFL will not call every penalty in order to keep a nice flow to the game and keep the game under 3-3.5 hours. With the approach of grabbing and holding you'll more than likely get called for holding instead of PI so when they do flag you, your team will only lose 5 yards, no big deal. So, to keep the flow of the game going the officials will start to ignore most of the penalties and then eventually they ignore nearly all of those penalties. Which is where we are with both Seattle and the Packers, but Seattle is smarter about it since they got 2 big guys to cheat instead of the smaller guys GB has

Nailed it...this is the "culture" I was referring too. Like the Ravens, they created a culture whereby it's expected that this is how they play and as a result, typiclly get the benefit of the doubt with a few "holding" calls thrown in for good measure. The only issue I have with this in general is when the OTHER team is unable to play within the context of the same game and instead, gets called for P.I.'s.

We lost last week, or if you prefer, Seattle beat us last week.

The holding by Seattle seems excessive, but it is not like it is something new.
Originally posted by midrdan:
Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
The Hawks have one of the best secondaries you have ever seen? f**k no. The only guy in their secondary that has true talent is Earl Thomas. All the other guys are mediocre to solid players, but they aren't elite. What they are is elite at holding and getting away with it.

I went back and watched the coaches film of our game and their game against the panthers. Richard Sherman and Walter Thurmond are great at tugging on the jersey to bring the wideout closer to them when he makes his break. They're also great at grabbing and holding the guys jersey up top when pressing at the line of scrimmage. Props to them for cheating so blatantly and getting away with it, but the reality is that their talent level is vastly overrated.

Sherman is slow, lanky, and doesn't have great change of direction or very fluid hips. He has pretty good ball skills though.

Brandon Browner is another guy that is huge for a corner and thus his fluidity and change of direction is poor. Also lacks speed. Another guy that is great at mugging wideouts though.

Kam Chancellor is just a big ass slow safety than can hit pretty good. He doesn't have very good coverage or ball skills.

Walter Thurmond is their most talented corner. Yup that's right. He is way more fluid than these other guys and has pretty good ball skills. However, Sherman and Browner excel more in that defense because of their size and length. It helps to be big with long arms when your defensive tactic is to reach out and grab and hold jerseys.

Earl Thomas- The only true stud (within the rules) in their secondary. A ball hawk.

In a defensive secondary that concentrates on mugging wide receivers as opposed to legally covering them, basically all you have to do is go out and select guys in later rounds that are big and not as talented. You don't need to worry about drafting defensive backs early because they don't need to be very good cover guys. Wait a second guys! That's exactly what Seattle has done! Genius! You have an undrafted free agent and a fifth round pick starting at your corner positions and another fifth round pick at the safety position. All of whom became all stars within a year in the pros. That's amazaaaaziiiing!

Seattle has built their defense the right way ... get after the QB and shut down the run with 7-8 man fronts, play one deep safety - Thomas is a stud - and hold receivers at the line to disrupt the timing. This is exactly how GB used to play the 49ers in the mid-90s ... our W/C offense never had good timing against them because the corners would basically hold receivers at the line (and beyond). This same defense was employed by NE against the Rams in the 2001 SB. Holding receivers on every play, disrupt the timing, and blitz (or disguise the rush).

If you want to know how to beat this defense, re-watch Miami against Chicago in 1985. Marino spread out the field, forcing the Bears out of the 46 package. You have to spread Seattle out ... force them into zones and hit the short and intermediate routes underneath and in the middle of the field. Don't let them substitute their DL.

That's what I was thinking. Spread them out and force them to bring their 3rd and 4th corners onto the field. They no longer would have the 8 guys in the box. Then you do motions and bunch formations to get your wide receivers free releases off the line of scrimmage.

Roman's dumb ass game plan played right into what Seattle loves to do defensively. We were going a lot of one or two wide receiver sets and even putting a f**kin fullback out wide. All seattle had to do was press cover and mug the f**k out of our wideouts and then put 8 in the box and they effectively had shut down our run game and our pass game at the same time.

Next time, we need to not be putting Bruce Miller out wide. Frank Gore should not be running out of the pistol or the read option formation. Hunter and James should be the backs for that. And we should rarely use that formation anyways against Seattle. Frank Gore needs to run out of iform and strong type of formations to allow him to do what he's best at and that is use his vision and hit the hole and run north and south. Then we need to use more three and four wide receiver sets to spread their asses out and get those f**kin 7th and 8th guys out of the box.
Originally posted by 9erReign:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by threelittlebirds:
The NFL will not call every penalty in order to keep a nice flow to the game and keep the game under 3-3.5 hours. With the approach of grabbing and holding you'll more than likely get called for holding instead of PI so when they do flag you, your team will only lose 5 yards, no big deal. So, to keep the flow of the game going the officials will start to ignore most of the penalties and then eventually they ignore nearly all of those penalties. Which is where we are with both Seattle and the Packers, but Seattle is smarter about it since they got 2 big guys to cheat instead of the smaller guys GB has

Nailed it...this is the "culture" I was referring too. Like the Ravens, they created a culture whereby it's expected that this is how they play and as a result, typiclly get the benefit of the doubt with a few "holding" calls thrown in for good measure. The only issue I have with this in general is when the OTHER team is unable to play within the context of the same game and instead, gets called for P.I.'s.

You seriously don't have a problem with a team actively employing the tactic of "well the NFL won't call a penalty on every single play so we will commit a penalty every single play and in the end it will benefit us?" I think it is BS. Start enforcing all penalties, make all the teams play within the rules. There is no point in having rules if you don't enforce them.

Yeah I agree, the league really needs to crack down on the rules on everyone. But if they aren't, then the logical thing to do is to adopt the strategy ourselves and see if we can get away with it after a while to equal the playing field with seattle.
Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
Yeah I agree, the league really needs to crack down on the rules on everyone. But if they aren't, then the logical thing to do is to adopt the strategy ourselves and see if we can get away with it after a while to equal the playing field with seattle.

The League does need to crack down.. but yes, I agree!

If my team were doing this and getting away with it week to week? Hell yes, I would tell them to keep doing it.

I don't condone taking shots at player's knees, launching, SpyGate, etc... but if my CBs can get away with extra contact on WRs? Hey, go on ahead, boys.
Originally posted by 951NINER:
Here's a good breakdown-

http://www.ninersnation.com/2013/9/18/4746032/deep-in-the-game-full-22-footage-breaking-down-the-beatdown-in-seattle


Thanks for the link. Interesting, I wonder how many times the Seahawks were in their '12' with 2 TEs / 2 WRs, and did the 49ers respond every time with their nickel package. The Seahawks had almost no success trying to run wide on sweeps/stretch plays. But between the tackles? It was there all night, and that's where Lynch/Turbin did the bulk of their damage...having Carlos Rogers as one of your 7 guys in the box while your 2 safeties are 15-yds from the LOS probably not optimal. That's the kind of thing I think Lord Fangio will see and correct.
[ Edited by DelCed2486 on Sep 19, 2013 at 2:26 PM ]
Originally posted by DelCed2486:
Originally posted by 951NINER:
Here's a good breakdown-

http://www.ninersnation.com/2013/9/18/4746032/deep-in-the-game-full-22-footage-breaking-down-the-beatdown-in-seattle


Thanks for the link. Interesting, I wonder how many times the Seahawks were in their '12' with 2 TEs / 2 WRs, and did the 49ers respond every time with their nickel package. The Seahawks had almost no success trying to run wide on sweeps/stretch plays. But between the tackles? It was there all night, and that's where Lynch/Turbin did the bulk of their damage...having Carlos Rogers as one of your 7 guys in the box while your 2 safeties are 15-yds from the LOS might probably not optimal. That's the kind of thing I think Lord Fangio will see and correct.

Wilson did have a very unspectacular day. So the defense did take away one aspect of the SEA offensive attack (passing game). I think if the 49ers like going with a Dline of Brooks, RayMac, Justin, Aldon on nickel packages versus a 2TE set by the opposing offense, then a behemoth NT is necessary to keep C/OGs off of Bow and Willis.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by threelittlebirds:
The NFL will not call every penalty in order to keep a nice flow to the game and keep the game under 3-3.5 hours. With the approach of grabbing and holding you'll more than likely get called for holding instead of PI so when they do flag you, your team will only lose 5 yards, no big deal. So, to keep the flow of the game going the officials will start to ignore most of the penalties and then eventually they ignore nearly all of those penalties. Which is where we are with both Seattle and the Packers, but Seattle is smarter about it since they got 2 big guys to cheat instead of the smaller guys GB has

Nailed it...this is the "culture" I was referring too. Like the Ravens, they created a culture whereby it's expected that this is how they play and as a result, typiclly get the benefit of the doubt with a few "holding" calls thrown in for good measure. The only issue I have with this in general is when the OTHER team is unable to play within the context of the same game and instead, gets called for P.I.'s.

That is my issue with how the NFL treats Seattle and Green Bay too. If they are going to relax the rules for those teams then it is absolute BS to start flagging their opponents for PI in such a way that it really helps Seattle and GB. To ignore all of that contact on Seattle and then drop flags without hesitation on the 49ers secondary was bogus... oh yeah, they called it "even" by finally flagging Seattle for a meaningless holding penalty in the 4th quarter when the game was essentially over.

I also agree with other people who say that the 49ers should start playing like that as well. Of course, I think that game also gave us our answer on how the NFL would react to our CBs trying to match physical play... with a quick pass interference penalty.
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by DelCed2486:
Originally posted by 951NINER:
Here's a good breakdown-

http://www.ninersnation.com/2013/9/18/4746032/deep-in-the-game-full-22-footage-breaking-down-the-beatdown-in-seattle


Thanks for the link. Interesting, I wonder how many times the Seahawks were in their '12' with 2 TEs / 2 WRs, and did the 49ers respond every time with their nickel package. The Seahawks had almost no success trying to run wide on sweeps/stretch plays. But between the tackles? It was there all night, and that's where Lynch/Turbin did the bulk of their damage...having Carlos Rogers as one of your 7 guys in the box while your 2 safeties are 15-yds from the LOS might probably not optimal. That's the kind of thing I think Lord Fangio will see and correct.

Wilson did have a very unspectacular day. So the defense did take away one aspect of the SEA offensive attack (passing game). I think if the 49ers like going with a Dline of Brooks, RayMac, Justin, Aldon on nickel packages versus a 2TE set by the opposing offense, then a behemoth NT is necessary to keep C/OGs off of Bow and Willis.

I think Rogers' job was to spy the TE. Liability vs the run.
  • xcfan
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you guys think anthony davis needs to burn off some fat? i rewatched his pass pro and he isn't covering much ground on his kick slide, and had big trouble with wide speed.
what'ya think?
Originally posted by xcfan:
you guys think anthony davis needs to burn off some fat? i rewatched his pass pro and he isn't covering much ground on his kick slide, and had big trouble with wide speed.
what'ya think?

Sign a fat deal, take it easy in the offseason. It happens in every sport. It's human nature. He'll have to play his way back into shape.
Originally posted by 951NINER:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by DelCed2486:
Originally posted by 951NINER:
Here's a good breakdown-

http://www.ninersnation.com/2013/9/18/4746032/deep-in-the-game-full-22-footage-breaking-down-the-beatdown-in-seattle


Thanks for the link. Interesting, I wonder how many times the Seahawks were in their '12' with 2 TEs / 2 WRs, and did the 49ers respond every time with their nickel package. The Seahawks had almost no success trying to run wide on sweeps/stretch plays. But between the tackles? It was there all night, and that's where Lynch/Turbin did the bulk of their damage...having Carlos Rogers as one of your 7 guys in the box while your 2 safeties are 15-yds from the LOS might probably not optimal. That's the kind of thing I think Lord Fangio will see and correct.

Wilson did have a very unspectacular day. So the defense did take away one aspect of the SEA offensive attack (passing game). I think if the 49ers like going with a Dline of Brooks, RayMac, Justin, Aldon on nickel packages versus a 2TE set by the opposing offense, then a behemoth NT is necessary to keep C/OGs off of Bow and Willis.

I think Rogers' job was to spy the TE. Liability vs the run.

That was a good read. I hate the seahawks even more now.
Quick question -

I keep reading and hearing from Niner fans about how playing at home will change everything for you because Kaepernick will be able to audible. But do you guys really believe that? I mean, in 2 games, he hasn't scored a single TD against our starting defense. The Niners are getting dominated at the line, we were breaking through all night in both games and getting serious pressure on Kaepernick. Our secondary is the best in the NFL and relishes when you throw at them, as evidenced by the 3 INTs on Sunday, and the multiple turnovers in the last game.

How does that change simply because you're playing at home? It's not like either of the last 2 games were even close. You guys got destroyed, 71-16. Usually, home games are good for 3-7 points and can make the difference in a close game, but it hasn't been close ever since you got rid of Alex Smith. I'm honestly curious, here. Would like to hear some actual reasons why playing in SF would turn a 42-13 or 29-3 loss into a win. We're talking about a swing of 26 points minimum.
Oh and in case none of you have noticed, the Seahawks don't throw against the Niners. They've run the ball at you the last 5 times we played you. And why wouldn't we? We put up 172 rushing yards on Sunday. You haven't proven you can stop our run game at all. Marshawn Lynch has put up 4 straight 100+ yard games on the Niners. Why would we throw the ball?

Pete Carroll talked about it earlier this week on Seattle radio. Said they'll keep running it at you, because it works. And it keeps Kaepernick off the field. And it reduces turnovers. So it's not like you stopped what Seattle was trying to do. In fact, they were able to do exactly what they wanted, and San Fran was entirely unable to stop them.