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Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
Just so you know, the WCO offense doesn't make use of I-formation, it is primarily a split back look. I think thought, you are on to a kernel of truth, we need to shorten up some of these pass patterns, and utilize more "21" personnel looks. A core concept of WCO (I prefer to say Bill Walsh) is to spread the field horizontally rather than vertically, utilizing the backs as pass catchers. Another concept is beating blitzs with hot reads rather than protection, like Seattle did when we blitzed Dial in the 4th quarter. I like the pistol, and it gives the offense a new look, and put pressure on defenses, but balance is the key word.

I wonder if Mangini, is behind the changes, it is his job to scout tendencies, and we have been predictable, but unstoppable. Now we are less predictable, but we seem to be more stoppable! I attribute this loss to growing pains, we are an offense in flux, moving from a steady plodding, safe Alex Smith lead team to a more dynamic risk taking CK lead team. The coaching staff doesn't look entirely sure of the new look and feel of the team.


I have been wondering about Mangini as well. It is his job to scout defensive tendencies, not sure whether it is his job to come up with offensive solutions though, that could well be done by committee with Roman and Harbaugh. But, whatever it is, it isn't exactly going well.
Originally posted by Rascal:
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
Just so you know, the WCO offense doesn't make use of I-formation, it is primarily a split back look. I think thought, you are on to a kernel of truth, we need to shorten up some of these pass patterns, and utilize more "21" personnel looks. A core concept of WCO (I prefer to say Bill Walsh) is to spread the field horizontally rather than vertically, utilizing the backs as pass catchers. Another concept is beating blitzs with hot reads rather than protection, like Seattle did when we blitzed Dial in the 4th quarter. I like the pistol, and it gives the offense a new look, and put pressure on defenses, but balance is the key word.

I wonder if Mangini, is behind the changes, it is his job to scout tendencies, and we have been predictable, but unstoppable. Now we are less predictable, but we seem to be more stoppable! I attribute this loss to growing pains, we are an offense in flux, moving from a steady plodding, safe Alex Smith lead team to a more dynamic risk taking CK lead team. The coaching staff doesn't look entirely sure of the new look and feel of the team.


I have been wondering about Mangini as well. It is his job to scout defensive tendencies, not sure whether it is his job to come up with offensive solutions though, that could well be done by committee with Roman and Harbaugh. But, whatever it is, it isn't exactly going well.

You know all he has to do is say "90% of the time you are in I-formation you run Iso to Gore", and that can effect a game plan.
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
Originally posted by Rascal:
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
Just so you know, the WCO offense doesn't make use of I-formation, it is primarily a split back look. I think thought, you are on to a kernel of truth, we need to shorten up some of these pass patterns, and utilize more "21" personnel looks. A core concept of WCO (I prefer to say Bill Walsh) is to spread the field horizontally rather than vertically, utilizing the backs as pass catchers. Another concept is beating blitzs with hot reads rather than protection, like Seattle did when we blitzed Dial in the 4th quarter. I like the pistol, and it gives the offense a new look, and put pressure on defenses, but balance is the key word.

I wonder if Mangini, is behind the changes, it is his job to scout tendencies, and we have been predictable, but unstoppable. Now we are less predictable, but we seem to be more stoppable! I attribute this loss to growing pains, we are an offense in flux, moving from a steady plodding, safe Alex Smith lead team to a more dynamic risk taking CK lead team. The coaching staff doesn't look entirely sure of the new look and feel of the team.


I have been wondering about Mangini as well. It is his job to scout defensive tendencies, not sure whether it is his job to come up with offensive solutions though, that could well be done by committee with Roman and Harbaugh. But, whatever it is, it isn't exactly going well.

You know all he has to do is say "90% of the time you are in I-formation you run Iso to Gore", and that can effect a game plan.


That's true. My question and concern is could we be witnessing a case of "too many cooks spoil the broth" perhaps ?
  • buck
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 9,723
Back to the Basics

Reduce penalties
Eliminate personal fouls
Do not turn the ball over
Take the ball away
Block
Tackle
Catch

Easy to list but hard to do
  • buck
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 9,723
Originally posted by Rascal:
That's true. My question and concern is could we be witnessing a case of "too many cooks spoil the broth" perhaps ?

Possibly.

But, there a literally thousands of conjectures that can be made.

We have played two games. We won 1 and we lost 1.

So far, there does not seem to be any reason for panic.

But, I am seriously concerned about the penalties, which seems to be a problem that goes back for at least a year.
  • mayo49
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 20,804
Originally posted by buck:
Back to the Basics

Reduce penalties
Eliminate personal fouls
Do not turn the ball over
Take the ball away
Block
Tackle
Catch

Easy to list but hard to do


They'll play better, but Luck scares me. Hope it's an uneventful win.
  • buck
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 9,723
Originally posted by mayo49:
They'll play better, but Luck scares me. Hope it's an uneventful win.

I worry about every game.

I try not to predict what is going to happen. If I do, I am almost always wrong.

I just wait and watch the game.

The season is long and I am patient.
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 24,579
Originally posted by buck:
Originally posted by Rascal:
That's true. My question and concern is could we be witnessing a case of "too many cooks spoil the broth" perhaps ?

Possibly.

But, there a literally thousands of conjectures that can be made.

We have played two games. We won 1 and we lost 1.

So far, there does not seem to be any reason for panic.

But, I am seriously concerned about the penalties, which seems to be a problem that goes back for at least a year.
agree with buck.penalties have been a issue for quite some time and i am pretty sure it is not due to the fact there is some sort of a conspiracy against the niners from the refs. sure alls well that ends well,( well almost) for the last two years with our success but the drive killing and drive extending penalties continue and it is very very frustrating. in regards to rascals theory, I may be wrong but I do not think eric is responsible for the offensive line acting like they have forgotten to do something which they were at the best at last year. the offensive line play, the mistakes and lack of depth on the d line are the teams only issues in my opinion. i would like to think they are all correctable but as buck said,, those penalties have been going on for quite some time
One thing I noticed with the read option play-action, is that the quarterback can't drop back into the pocket as fast. Instead of a quick hand-off fake, he has to stand there in a crouched position, trying to read the defensive end more than he is reading the defensive secondary.

In the traditional play-action, the quarterback is reading the defensive secondary from the moment he starts back peddling. This allows him more TIME to see what is going on. He is also standing taller, allowing him to see more of the field.
Also, the O-line and everybody else knows what is going on. With the read-option, the offense seems just as clueless as the defense.

All of this confusion, just so the quarterback has the OPTION of running. An option which is not a smart option, as it can get the quarterback killed.
With the traditional drop back, a quarterback can still scramble if need be, and I think a scrambling quarterback is MUCH more deadly than a designed quarterback run.
The read-option confuses everybody on the field, and disrupts the quarterback's ability to see the field, find his timing, rhythm, and get comfortable in a game.

In short, get rid of the read-option. For the love of God.
[ Edited by BrianGO on Sep 18, 2013 at 10:08 AM ]
  • buck
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 9,723
Originally posted by cciowa:
agree with buck.penalties have been a issue for quite some time and i am pretty sure it is not due to the fact there is some sort of a conspiracy against the niners from the refs. sure alls well that ends well,( well almost) for the last two years with our success but the drive killing and drive extending penalties continue and it is very very frustrating. in regards to rascals theory, I may be wrong but I do not think eric is responsible for the offensive line acting like they have forgotten to do something which they were at the best at last year. the offensive line play, the mistakes and lack of depth on the d line are the teams only issues in my opinion. i would like to think they are all correctable but as buck said,, those penalties have been going on for quite some time

Both Willis and Davis have spoken about the need to eliminate penalties. Harbaugh, in a recent press conference, acknowledged that penalties are a serious problem.

Open recognition of a problem is the first step in process of rectifying that problem.
I do think that this is the first time that players and the head coach have publicly acknowledged the problem.

I certainly hope to see less penalties in the next game, and over the course of the year a major reduction of the penalties we get.


As far as I can tell no theory has been put forward regarding Eric Mangini's negative impact on the functioning of the offensive line.

Theories generally have some substance. A conjecture containing an idiomatic expression does not constitute a theory.
Originally posted by buck:
Back to the Basics

Reduce penalties
Eliminate personal fouls
Do not turn the ball over
Take the ball away
Block
Tackle
Catch

Easy to list but hard to do
Originally posted by Bryant4everYoung:
Originally posted by buck:
Back to the Basics

Reduce penalties
Eliminate personal fouls
Do not turn the ball over
Take the ball away
Block
Tackle
Catch

Easy to list but hard to do

harbaugh would make a great frankenstein lol
Run the Ball.

Stop the Run.

Andy Lee play the field position game. Make them go 80+ yards. on the D,
Originally posted by BrianGO:
One thing I noticed with the read option play-action, is that the quarterback can't drop back into the pocket as fast. Instead of a quick hand-off fake, he has to stand there in a crouched position, trying to read the defensive end more than he is reading the defensive secondary.

In the traditional play-action, the quarterback is reading the defensive secondary from the moment he starts back peddling. This allows him more TIME to see what is going on. He is also standing taller, allowing him to see more of the field.
Also, the O-line and everybody else knows what is going on. With the read-option, the offense seems just as clueless as the defense.

All of this confusion, just so the quarterback has the OPTION of running. An option which is not a smart option, as it can get the quarterback killed.
With the traditional drop back, a quarterback can still scramble if need be, and I think a scrambling quarterback is MUCH more deadly than a designed quarterback run.
The read-option confuses everybody on the field, and disrupts the quarterback's ability to see the field, find his timing, rhythm, and get comfortable in a game.

In short, get rid of the read-option. For the love of God.

All of this, but mostly the bold.
Originally posted by Rascal:
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
Originally posted by Rascal:
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
Just so you know, the WCO offense doesn't make use of I-formation, it is primarily a split back look. I think thought, you are on to a kernel of truth, we need to shorten up some of these pass patterns, and utilize more "21" personnel looks. A core concept of WCO (I prefer to say Bill Walsh) is to spread the field horizontally rather than vertically, utilizing the backs as pass catchers. Another concept is beating blitzs with hot reads rather than protection, like Seattle did when we blitzed Dial in the 4th quarter. I like the pistol, and it gives the offense a new look, and put pressure on defenses, but balance is the key word.

I wonder if Mangini, is behind the changes, it is his job to scout tendencies, and we have been predictable, but unstoppable. Now we are less predictable, but we seem to be more stoppable! I attribute this loss to growing pains, we are an offense in flux, moving from a steady plodding, safe Alex Smith lead team to a more dynamic risk taking CK lead team. The coaching staff doesn't look entirely sure of the new look and feel of the team.


I have been wondering about Mangini as well. It is his job to scout defensive tendencies, not sure whether it is his job to come up with offensive solutions though, that could well be done by committee with Roman and Harbaugh. But, whatever it is, it isn't exactly going well.

You know all he has to do is say "90% of the time you are in I-formation you run Iso to Gore", and that can effect a game plan.


That's true. My question and concern is could we be witnessing a case of "too many cooks spoil the broth" perhaps ?

I think so, but I hope not!